Any initial impressions of 2016 200 5.3 DI?

[skiinxs]

Maybe we should all just wait a bit and see how this all works out. Remember, the root cause was Garmin changing hardware and software on the existing pucks which caused communication issues and very slow response / speed floating up and down. If you skied a boat with one of the bad pucks early last year you probably experienced a far worse pull than the new single pucks in their current state. From what I have heard the new pucks are much better as they sample much faster giving them a better capability. From what I have read here, this may or may not feel better or worse then the old pucks, but they may feel different. It also sounds like work is being done to make them feel like the old pucks. I don't think there is any conspiracy to make anyone spend money to upgrade. I think the boat companies and ZeroOff are likely spending a lot of money and resources on the software and with the increased capability they should be able to slow them down a little and make them feel like the old pucks, maybe even better. We certainly wouldn't want the new boats to come out with the bad newer dual pucks and I am certainly glad that the industry has taken steps to avoid this. I think that the feel will become a non-issue and there will be no need to spend any money to make them feel the same. Where the real issue will come in is for anyone who has an old puck fail. Since the supply of pucks manufactured before the change is likely dwindling, owners of older systems will face the same issue the boat builders faced this year. Purchase a new replacement puck that makes the boat perform terrible, or convert to the newer single puck. Since I like to keep spare parts with me at tournaments to avoid boats going down, I will now need to purchase a new single puck for a spare, since my two older dual pucks will no longer work. Obviously I would prefer not to spend the money, but in the big picture, I am happy that work has been going on to avoid the disaster we would have had if all of the boat companies had just stayed with the new pucks and sent all the promo boats out knowing that they wouldn't work correctly. Garmin is the real culprit here.

[skiinxs]

Maybe the new pucks are so bad after all............. Nate just tied his world record behind his 2016 6.2 Liter DI with the new single puck.

[Drago]

@skiinxs need more info! Start a new thread?

[darinmontgomery]

@NateSmith43 just tied his World Record 2.5 @43 today behind the new 2016 ZO/6.2 SN 200.... again, I encourage everyone to try it!

[Stejcraftben]

I just got a new response lxr. Optioned it without ZO but ordered it through my local dealer. Did that about 3 weeks ago and it should be here next week. Hopefully I get the latest system, I'll be pretty dissapointed if I've spent all this money and get an older system that seems to have issues. Does anyone know when they started releasing the latest version?

[I5boi]

So our 15 CP is no longer current technology? Will a new 16 CP make us current?

[Horton]

@I5boi the question that remains is if the new stuff will be noticeably different or not. So say yes and some say no. If it is noticeable and negative you will for sure be able to upgrade.

[Dirt]

Posting that it must be great because Nate tied a world record does not mean that it is not different. It may be better. You are missing the point. If it is different, everyone will have to go out and spend $800 plus the hassle of installation to not have a different feeling pull in a tournament.

 

I am also assuming Nate has or trains behind a new boat with the new pucks. The point people were making above is that they don't have the ability to do so without buying the new equipment.

[NateSmith43]

@Dirt this was my third set behind this boat and set up.

[slow]

Nice work Natr

[Dirt]

@NateSmith43 that's what I get for assuming. Thanks for correcting me. Nice skiing!

 

@slow

 

 

[Horton]

@dirt funny yes but as you know I run a friendly website. If you can not behave I am going to have to call your wife.

[Dirt]

I apologize and understand. Thought it was funny

[Onside135]

***Disclaimer***I've been following this thread loosely since it started, but if I understand it correctly, Nate Smith and maybe some other pro/elite skiers are working with Zero Off and at least Nautique (maybe other manufacturs?) to dial in this new single puck system. Is that correct?

 

Can anyone on the inside say whether the goal of these skiers and engineers is to develop a "better", possibly different feeling and pulling speed control, or get it to feel like the Zero off of the last decade?

 

Also, it seems like an inherent advantage to be a skier involved in fine tuning a speed control you will personally be skiing behind for some time to come. I wonder if a bunch of guys are lining up to try and get their inputs considered?

[Horton]

@Onside135 go back to the top and start reading

[Onside135]

@Horton…I've read the whole thread again. My questions still stand…

 

The single puck system software is still being worked out…I got it, but is the ultimate objective to make it feel like the ZO of the last decade? Seems to be some differing opinions within this thread.

 

It worries me considerably that @NateSmith43 compares the situation to the switch from hand-driving to Perfect Pass, or the switch from PP to ZO. I think the quote was "the same bump in the road that we will all get over."

[aupatking]

Yet again we have the only current system, on equipment no skier has. I can't even go out and spend $40k on USED 2013 SN 200 and it be current.

And $40k is an insane amount to throw out on a ski boat that is 3 years old With 500+/- hours.

Outside of that, I'm happy with the progression And it has to happen. No new hardware/software has ever been released "perfect". We test all day and don't get the same problems the real world has.

But all of my reasoning still neglects the fact that the boats pull will be different.

[aupatking]

I can't make up my mind here and I'm not gonna edit my previous post any more.

My B1 will not be B1 behind a 2016 boat. I don't have a 2016 and may not have access to one. So, I don't know what to ski in a tournament.

That said, my B1 behind a 200 does not feel the same as it does behind a Mastercraft, Malibu or Centurion. Now, the pull isn't way off, but is different. Dependant on the tournament, i don't know what will be pull me, or what engine it will have. I also can't choose.

For the guys making money in the tournaments, pro or BD, they have access to, or have a new/current boat. But, are all 2016 tournament boats requiring the new system? If not, now they've got 5.3, 5.7, 6.2, 2015 ZO, 2016 ZO, and the combinations thereof?

At the dock do we now have to ask, what engine and what version of ZO they have to know what setting to ski? It was hard enough for me already.

Seriously though, most days I ski behind a 98 SN 196 with PP, so my ZO setting is generally based off what I did in the last tournament, or last month when I skied behind one of my buddies Pro star or 200. On a river, with tide and current. Like @ALPJr says, it won't affect me.

[EricKelley]

Anyone know how much calibration of the ECI equipped Zerooff is being done with brands other than Nautique? Looks like a lot of work will need to be done on Malibu, Mastercraft and Centurion. Especially Malibu's 1:1 drive.

[ForrestGump]

Good grief! The sky is not falling, chicken little!

 

On any given day at a tournament you can find people complaining about the pull of ZO, or saying I'd kill it with Perfect Pass. Hell, I heard that statement yesterday at a tournament. Some people think the Centurion is too soft, some think the Malibu runs at the buoy, and on and on and on.

 

Go. Freaking. Ski.

[Roger]

Quote from Jody Seal: "We Have run this new ECI hardware/software in a number of tournaments since July with different engine packages (2014-16 models) and most skiers had no clue."

 

"The skiers that did know for the most part felt the overall pull was not foreign nor much different then previous Garman / ZO systems, We have many skiers that believe the new software/ hardware combo has a superior feel then previous versions."

 

And then he says:

 

"My self I have gone to B2 from C-1 with the ECI version."

 

That speaks volumes changing a letter and a number for a system that isn't much different...

 

I have a number of sets behind Paul's Centurion with the old dual puck system where I used B2 (same setting I use with the dual puck Nautique). I have changed to C1 with the single puck, again a letter and a number change. This is significant to me.

 

The real issue for me is that they put these new systems into tournaments without letting anyone know. We had a number of complaints from skiers across the board at our Oct 31 Record about the new system and they spend big bucks to ski there, this is simply not fair to the skier.

 

As for what is being done, I know that new software was being tested on the Centurion this weekend, so the powers that be are working on the issue (or non issue depending on who you ask).

[MISkier]

I think I'll just start skiing on C3+. That way, it will be brutal no matter what system it is.

[santangelo]

Agree with @Roger .

 

I am testing some custom settings....between 2 settings I tested this weekend, the results were 'much improved' over what I had at the Oct. 31 tournament with the Carbon Pro. 3 different skiers, each at different letter settings, and all agreed the pull was considerably better. As @scoke said after several test passes, it's now back in the ballpark of where the 2 puck system was.

 

I have two different settings to test next weekend before the next level of refining our software configuration will take place. I will test these with the same skiers I tested with last weekend to get consistent feedback.

 

I typically get great feedback about my boat, and when that didn't happen with the new single puck, Centurion immediately stepped up to figure the issue out. They are committed to getting the pull back to where it should be.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I think the concerns are premature. Each manufacturer can customize their software configuration for their hull/engine/prop combinations. Upgrading to the single puck may not be necessary to get the same feel, but testing/refining the software takes time and this is the time of year when the change should be made so we're confident of our boats come the spring tournament season.

 

If you want to ski the Centurion, and you're in the West Palm Beach area, let me know. I'd be glad to pull you and let you judge yourself.

 

-Paul

[NateSmith43]

Not here to argue or fight. Just help the understanding of what is going on.

 

There was never a goal to change the pull of ZO from my understanding. But with a hardware change that is something no body can control is creating an unwanted change by everyone.

 

There are several people and skiers/promo boats of ALL brands that have been testing this over the summer and giving feedback.

 

All boats with a ZO system are capable of being current. New puck and update. Not sure about the $800 though. Seems high. We will see.

 

BUT with all that being said. The end goal is to have the same pull as it has been for the last several years. So change may not be an issue for the ones not wanting to upgrade to the new puck.

 

I don't like change much either and was a bit scared in the beginning but I have had pretty good success behind the new system in the last few tournaments so it's hard to argue it being worse.

 

In regards to "a bump we will get over" this is all being a bit over blown I think. By reading all this it makes it sound like the manufactures are trying to take advantage of skiers and stick them for every penny but that is not the case. Change forced upon us with short notice. I give credit to the ones working night and day to try and make it the same. It's not easy. I've seen the inner workings and all I can say is wow. More to it than most think.

[swc5150]

Thanks @NateSmith43 for taking the time to discuss this with us. It's a testament to our sport that the world record holder provides insight and thoughts to us.

[Ghibli]

Now that there is no difference between drivers, will utopia will be achieved once the cruise control issues are resolved?

[markchilcutt]

Wow i finally make the move and sell my 06 LXI with star gazer z box blah blah and buy a 14 Prostar with Zero off and i read that speed control is changing again!!!! Thats it im selling everything and am going to start oil painting in my spare time!! Just kidding of course i love swerving behind boats!!!!!

[thompjs]

@ShaneH -- easy for a bike racer to say...

 

[Golfguy]

Here is a thought, why not tell ZO the skier weight and let the computer decide what the most consistent pull setting will be. It seems that skier weight has some baring on the settings. Example would be that PP was better for heavier skiers and ZO is kinder to lighter swerves.

[Zman]

What @ShaneH said. Kleenex anyone?

[Drago]

This is a reply from the "Nate equals his WR" thread, as it was off-topic there:

I'm flattered @NateSmith43 uttered my name! I did read that was his 3rd set,after I posted. @ozski ,It's not in MY head, I'm fine with whatever, except $800, but I do think @NateSmith43 is a little more athletic /adaptable then your weekend tournament demographic . It's a sensitive crowd out there and keeping them in the sport should be paramount. I personally love ZO --for my skiing. I went from running my PB once a year, to pretty much every set. Still don't own a boat with it.

I have not skied the single puck, I have only read about it (probably not a good idea to "listen" to a blog,I know,if I listened to everything on bos I would have been brain locked long ago)--looks like it works for Nate and I will probably like it. I'm genuinely worried for tournament skiing, though, and if the perception next Spring is,"I have to go out and get the $800 puck ", I'm not convinced that we will get more entries.

I was there when the pros decided that gate video review would be awesome, and I agreed. Seemed great at the time. Did it help the elite? Probably. Did it "help" the sport? I don't think so. Unintended consequences: now we have to have cameras all over the dang place.

Ultimately,"it is what it is", and we really can't do anything about it. Nor can ZO. It's unfortunate and hopefully they smooth it out. I just think because an amazing athlete put up an amazing score with it doesn't create instant justification.Ted Ligety kicks arse on the new crappy no-sidecut GS skis. I guarantee there is not a single Masters racer out there wishing they had to ski on those things.kids,either.It's no fun.

Wouldn't you rather put you $800 toward a Quest 45?!

I'm sure it will work out. Congrat's to Nate! If I held on to that 2 ball my ankles would be snapped off in the bindings.

[slow]

My son moved to the FIS skis last year. Its amazing how much more technically proficient he became. I can't turn them at all however.

[JohnN]

C'mon, @Drago, you know Masters want some 195/35m skis like the ones I have for sale. I think Masters Nationals was won on a pair last year (unfortunately is was SG on a GS ski). Sorry to digress, but our water is getting harder...

[gregy]

I'm in the market for a ZO boat so if any you guy want do dump of that pos 2015 for deal I'll be happy to take it of your hands for cheap.

[Drago]

@JohnN your kids can turn 'em, but I bet they would rather rip it on a 28m or 23m.

I bet most people would adapt to the change in ZO, (if it's not tweeked), but they would rather it stayed as is.

[disland]

The FIS thing got me thinking. Could you imagine the back lash if IWWF decided to start dictating the exact specifications of waterskis. They can only be so wide, have to fit within tight flex numbers. Fins can only have certain kinds of wings ect. @horton would love it the BOS server would crash.

[eleeski]

@disland I hope we can remember this on April first.

 

Eric

[Broussard]

@disland Delet your comment before they get any ideas... it may already be too late!

[Stejcraftben]

I emailed zero off to find out when the update would be available. Looks like I jumped the gun on buying it... If only I had read this thread earlier. This is what they sent me.

 

"Hi Ben – we have launched a new single GPS antenna option with our boat builder partners. The pull of this is almost identical to the dual antenna set up. We will be launching the new single puck solutions and retro kits on our Zero Off web site soon. Please check back in a few weeks. It will be up to consumers if they want to try to switch to the new set up. "

 

[Drago]

@disland that tells you where alpine racing is headed. Definitely a different subject:/

[303Skier]

I finally pulled the trigger after several years and bought a used 2008 196 w/ZO and now this news...This is discouraging but I'll still keep skiing and will do whatever it takes to upgrade. What's $800 when I just spent thousands of dollars?? Lol.

[Roger]

@303Skier - you may not have to do anything. The testing with the Centurion mentioned above is coming along nicely according to Paul. He has even moved back to the setting he was using with the dual puck system. I believe they will have this worked out to the point of being a non-issue pretty soon. Hopefully, with Correct Craft being Ski Centurion's parent company now, they are communicating what is going on so the Nautique can be similarly updated.