Conversation with Adam Cord 4/3/16

[Horton]

@LeonL 99% sure it is legal unless it moves on its own while you are actually skiing

[CaleBurdick]

@adamhcaldwell as you know, I've done it, and it's awesome. I can't wait to get your new Denali fin block so I can fine tune it!! Its fun to me that my notes for ski settings now have a new section: onside depth.

[Wish]

.had a conversation with Cord. (Staying on topic..haha)

Me. I want to get rid of the little hitch outa 2-4

Cord. Add an additional washer or decrease 5.

Me. I'll try the washer first.

Did that. Measured. Big diff when measured compared to where it was. And big ol gap between block and ski..big.

Me. The difference is kinda big

Cord. Well that should be fun.

 

It was fun because once again he was right as rain. The ski was seamless on the off side from turn to hookup before. Now it's just as seamless on my on side. This is such a cool thing and to think that their set screw in the fin block can mico adjust that on the production ski...very cool. Thanks @AdamCord

[Fehlindra]

Im an LFF 34 mph skier gonna try out Rini´s settings 2,450 on my 67"16 Vapor checked the settings and got the 2,450 on the left side and 2,454 on the right side for me as an LFF do i need to correct something with washer?

 

[Wish]

@Fehlindra you will want to keep the left side at Rani's number 2.450 (no washer) and adjust the right side (add washer) to take advantage of what the washer actually accomplishes - if the sides were even. But in your case the right side is already deeper so the washer will probably just even that up close to the left side essentially minimizing any advantage of adding a washer to a fin that has the same depth on both sides. So in your case, 2 washer may be needed to have the correct shallow side (right) and deeper side (left with Rani's numbers). But, I suggest you ride the ski without any washer with Rani's numbers, then add one washer (right side) and see what you think and then try a second. The left side should not change (Rani's numbers) as you add washer(s) to the right. Like demoing any new setting, small adjustments, ski and adjust again if needed.

 

[DanE]

@Wish How much does 1 washer affect measurement? The difference in the pictures show a difference of only .004" , very consistent with the difference I measured on my sons Vapor.

That small difference could show because the caliper is turned the opposite direction on either side making the head hit the bottom in different locations.

Any hook or rocker in the tail area would cause different depht readings.

[Wish]

@DanE True and it depends on the washer (I've seen thin and much thicker). Basically the thickness of the washer is amount of depth that will be removed. The goal of the washer is to have a shallow side and a deeper side to the fin depending on your foot orientation. It is much like any setting in that there can be to much and not feel right or to little and not feel anything. That's why I suggested starting with a baseline of no washer (if new fin numbers are being tested) and then experiment with one (could be thin or thick) and if no noticeable difference try two or thicker. Did this with a skier just last weekend. Worked very well for him and I would even say he was surprised at the results. Was just a washer that was on hand. No real science to thickness or how many. I currently run 2. One is thick and one is thin.

[DanE]

@Wish I think just an ordinary washer would be around .040" or close to that.

If depth is altered the same amount he would get the right side over .030" shallower (don't know if that is too much or not).

If you want to make smaller adjustments you really need shims but they can be hard to find if you want stainless (wich I would want considering the environment we operate in).

[mwetskier]

@DanE -actually the *effective* difference between the shallow side and the normal side would be much less than you think since the reduction in surface area would the area under an arc -not a depth change that runs the entire length of the fin.

[Wish]

@DanE I used two diff thickness of washer. Played around with it. I'm sure there can be too much and certainly not enough. If a thinner shim feels better then that's ok too. Skier decides to much or to little like any other fin setting. Like Caldwell said above, drill, tap and add a set screw to fin block and have at some fun micro adjusting. :)

[Drago]

@Wish "to", =direction, (going to try a Denali) "too"= excessive amount (too much tip)

[skibug]

I had a .040" thick washer on the left side, center screw of my fin block (Goode Nano One) and it gave me measurement of -.015" less on the left side of fin versus right side of fin. I am RFF. While I found it did allow for the tail to wash easier on my onside; and the ski to finish easier with more angle cross course, there was a trade off. I found that it was harder to maintain outbound direction going to 2-4-6. The ski would roll too easy (which makes sense to me) and I would wind up a little narrow. I think the delta between sides was too much. If I try it again, I will use some .010 shim stock in hopes of getting the difference between the right and left side depths down to .004" or .005".

[Wish]

@Drago you have to much time on your hands. I'll make sure too pay more attention next time. :p

 

@skibug have not experienced that and I have 2 washers stuck in mine. Will be interesting to hear if less is more. Let us know. :)

 

 

 

[ktm300]

@DanE makes a good point about the head of the caliper being in a different place for right v left measurement. Even if the fin is exactly the same depth on both sides it would likely measure different based upon the position of the head against the base of the ski.

[eleeski]

Does the washer bend the tail slightly or tip the fin slightly (or both)?

 

And is .004 anything more than measurement error? But that's a different topic.

 

Eric

[Wish]

@eleeski the ski is deflected/gets pushed down under washer as fin block is a much harder material and does not flex. Fin remains the same orientation to the ski.

[Than_Bogan]

And @Horton needs to put that question on the FAQ...

[eleeski]

@Wish my fin boxes do flex. My skis are pretty stiff. It's certainly not that clear cut.

 

Also, even with no fin box flexing and lots of ski bending, a washer is still likely to affect the angle of the fin.

 

Another fin adjustment variable to deal with.

 

Eric

[Wish]

@eleeski u could always develop your own ski deflecting device. Pretty sure it doesn't change the angle enough to matter of it does at all. :)

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan questions and answers involving @eleeski are categorized as entertainment not as information

[eleeski]

For entertainment, somebody please measure the change in fin angle before and after adding washers. It's actually not that easy to measure accurately - at least not for me.

 

Then, somebody please shim one side of the fin to see what effect tilting the fin a bit has. It might be entertaining if it actually helps the turn on one side.

 

Just be sure the water temperature isn't too cold...

 

Eric

[Drago]

And definitely video

[paul413ski]

Ten thou washer on the left side of my fin block on side deff better 2016 68 Vapor

 

[Triplett]

I added the washer to one of the skiers at my lake last night. He had a killer toe side turn but the heel side just sucked. I grabbed a 0.040" washer and threw it on there, never measured depth, too lazy and no time. He went out and had a killer heel side, best I have ever seen out of him, and the toe side stayed the same.

 

I did look at the angle of the fin after doing this. It didn't seem like it changed the angle. As long as you get the other two screws on that side flat I don't see it changing the angle more than a degree or two. The fin block is probably more stiff than the carbon of the ski. The ski was a Green Radar Vapor, 66", I think.

 

I am sure by this point in time everyone has already done this, but if you haven't and you feel like one side is lacking, I highly suggest it. I am believer in this, it is just trying to get others to believe as well.

[Fehlindra]

added an washer on my 16 vapor havent tested it yet but you see the deflection its like an bump and measure 0.5 mm less on the right side, if im feeling something then i dont know if its the changed waterflow over the bump that you can see on the picture or actually the change in fin deep

 

[Fehlindra]

added an washer on my 16 vapor havent tested it yet but you see the deflection its like an bump and measure 0.5 mm less on the right side, if im feeling something then i dont know if its the changed waterflow over the bump that you can see on the picture or actually the change in fin deep

 

[Wish]

It's not water flow. It's less fin exposed on that side which allows ski to start rotation sooner. Also a friend of mine just set a personal tournament PB this past weekend at Lake 38 (amazing hosts by the way...I mean amazing!!!). Put a washer in it for him several weeks back. He liked the results and the proof was this weekend. It will work on any ski and with the Denali no fussing with washers, just turn the micro adjust set screw to desired depth of fin on that side and ride.

[Wish]

It's not water flow. It's less fin exposed on that side which allows ski to start rotation sooner. Also a friend of mine just set a personal tournament PB this past weekend at Lake 38 (amazing hosts by the way...I mean amazing!!!). Put a washer in it for him several weeks back. He liked the results and the proof was this weekend. It will work on any ski and with the Denali no fussing with washers, just turn the micro adjust set screw to desired depth of fin on that side and ride.

[Deke]

I'm bumping this thread because I'm curious to hear if people are still doing the washer thing.

[Triplett]

It is still going on and I am converting everyone in Michigan slowly. If you haven't tried it yet you do not know what you are missing. It is a key tuning aspect that I find makes a huge difference.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Deke, yes, its the closest thing to magic in the ski tuning toolbox.

[mbabiash]

So when you say it smoothed out the on side. Please describe better.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Mbabiash

 

Earlier rotation, lower tip height and more tail slide (not more tail drop) through the finish of the heel-side turn, allowing you to carry more energy back to the handle during the finish of the turn. This tends to also produce more speed, less load and a free-er wake crossing during the heel-side pull through center-line, setting you up earlier and wider into the toeside - which, just makes that turn even better too.

[Than_Bogan]

@adamhcaldwell But other than that, it's useless... ;)

[BobF]

Not sure how I missed this thread in 2016. Admittedly, thought it was a joke at first, especially with the April post date and all… But why not try it, right? So, last night I add a .040 washer under the left center of the rocker block of my D3 Quest. Hit the water at the crack of early this morning before work.

 

I'm an old guy / 34 mph. I usually open at 28, ski most (>90%) of my 32's, and end up with 3 or 4 at 35 off. Crack into a couple at 38 when I'm on a roll, but it's the exception for sure.

 

Get out this morning and it's cold - 55 air, water in the low 70's I'd guess. Jumped in and skied through 28, 32, 35, and got 1 @ 38 right out of the boat. GREAT set for me. The 35 was definitely the easiest I've ever skied. What the heck?

 

Just want to weigh in on this thread, and can't help but wonder how much of this morning was in my head and how much was actually under my feet.

 

Bob

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Hey, if a 20 cent washer can fix your head...

[BobF]

@Than_Bogan, "fixed" would be a stretch.

[Adam Caldwell]

@"bf`"

 

Its under your feet. As you get more "brave", you can go through a cycle of moving the fin Back, Deeper and Adding more offset as you go.

 

Say you start at .780, 2.500 6.840 with no offset. you could go to .775, 2.505/2.480, 6.840. And continue on.

 

Last winter I was running almost 65/1000s and smoking 39s like never before. This summer I am running closer to 45-50/1000 offset with slightly shallower and longer settings.

 

As long as the ski is rotating in the preturn of your heelside, and fast through the wakes on a heelside pull, you should be able pull the fin back, and add depth to the offside turn to improve the shutdown and tip-height-stability into the ball without much penalty.

 

You can bump a little at a time until something falls apart. IE, ski rotates too late or ski gets too heavy behind the boat on a toeside pull.

 

Fun stuff.

 

@eleeski - Even with the offset jacked to 65-70/1000s the fin still sits true on the bottom of the ski.

[BobF]

@adamhcaldwell Thanks for responding - Great advice for pushing onward.

I have not re-measured my fin since creating the offset. Sounds like I should measure depth on both sides and use that as a baseline for adjusting from there. Really appreciate the input!

[eleeski]

@adamhcaldwell Something has to give. Either the base of the ski is deflecting or the fin is deflecting (or warping). Or the core is absorbing the load and this is a placebo effect.

 

My skis and measuring skills are not up to observing this effect. It might be pretty subtle requiring a dial indicator on a big granite flat with a solid clamp.

 

And my slalom skiing skills are so rusty that I'd be unable to feel if you put a Schnitz fin on my ski - I'm definitely not ready for dialing in a ski. But I'm intrigued by what you are moving and trying to figure out how to incorporate that.

 

Or just throw the washer in and see if your skiing improves. Something pretty right about that.

 

How did you come up with this?

 

Eric

[Than_Bogan]

@eleeski The ski deflects. That's the point: the exposed area of the fin on that side is reduced.

Should be easy to measure the difference in depth even with just one washer.

[eleeski]

@Than_Bogan That's exactly what I'm asking. How much? Where? All to find out where I should add bondo to get the same effect. My skis are so stiff there and my fin blocks so flimsy that I won't see deflection on my setup.

 

One other consideration, A washer will make the fin block somewhat less anchored to the ski allowing possibly more fin movement while skiing. I have had good results by adding rubber under my fin block to allow subtle movement. Perhaps this is the real effect.

 

I'm just curious as to how much and where and if it is the fin. Rigorous measurements might answer this.

 

Eric

[GaryWilkinson]

Full honest testimony: skied yesterday 2 sets and could get on side as smooth as I'd like.

Put the washer in last night, check fin setting and Wow. Big difference in onside smoothness. Ski didn't bite, yet I was able to put more of the front foot in the water. Probably my best set at -32 this year.

That, and good coaching from Pierre T.

 

But no placebo effect. It was a noticeable difference.

[Wish]

it just works...who cares why.

[AdamCord]

@eleeski the whole point is to have less exposed fin area on one side, as that's what you want for your onside. You can definitely do it with Bondo. Just build up some material to the bottom of the ski on one side of the fin. This will essentially block part of the fin from showing.

 

Be sure to do it to the correct side. If you get it backwards it's amazing how much it will make the ski suck!

[ozski]

A couple of seasons back I did some skiing with a guy from the UK who was using part of a credit card as a shim to get the same effect. He was no ski whisperer so I'm guessing someone back in the UK had worked a little magic on the ski for him. This was pre Denali so this little mod has possibly been around for a while.

[Adam Caldwell]

@eleeski - Yes, bondo on one side would be brilliant and work well. If you put too much on, just sand it off. If you sand too much off, you can put it back on. Although, not very repeatable or consistent. You will also have to worry about surface finish, risk of messing up a bevel, etc. But, if you make your own skis and like bondo .... get-er-done!

 

My mindset is that its much easier to slap an old fin block on a ski and stick a washer under the middle hole. [(For the tweakers out there) drill and tap the middle hole, throw a set/jacking screw in it (allows for fine-tuning offset) and mount it up.

 

The fin block may have some very slight deflection, however its still going to drive the ski down also to create the desired effect. Any other movement/deflection - even IF measurable to the smallest degree - is not going to create any negative issues or undesirable effects

 

FWIW, we have mounted fins that were intentionally misaligned with the skis CL, on an angle relative to CL, and ran wedges to put the fin on an angle...Hardly any noticeable difference HS to TS on any of those configurations. However, running a fin with 2.480 on one side and 2.410 on the other IS definitely VERY noticeable and can be extremely beneficial to ones skiing. I have yet to set someone up with it that skied worse. Always better.

 

The compression strength of the core and insert foundation block beneath is more then high enough to handle a little pressure from a washer or set/jack-screw without issue - regardless of flex. Unless your laminate is very thin, and/or you have no insert or screw foundations where mounting screws are in the ski then I think you will find the same results as the rest of the bunch.

[mwetskier]

okay, so on my 2016 radar vapor fin block i converted the left middle mounting screw hole (rff skier). steps were: 1- drill out existing hole with a 7mm or 9/32 drill bit (either will work). 2- run 5/16 x 24 tpi tap though drilled hole. 3- re mount block on ski and insert 1/2 inch long 5/16 x 24 stainless set screw. thats it and it works like magic.

 

the set screw rides against the factory insert so no damage to the top of the ski and the screw itself is pretty much identical to the set screws already being used for tuning stops on the existing block -meaning that you can just use one of those to try it out before running off to your local set screw store. as a bonus 24 threads per inch is very close to 0.040 inch per revolution which means every quarter turn is about a 0.010 inch of travel. so its really easy to figure how much is enough and how much is too much.

[eleeski]

Thanks @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell . I understand the effect now - and I totally agree with the theory. Thanks for giving us another valuable tuning technique.

 

Where did you get this magic insight?

 

Eric

[AdamCord]

@eleeski I had a ski 3 or 4 years ago that I was skiing great on and I thought was really good. I'm RFF and I let a buddy who's LFF try it and he could barely run a pass on it. I thought that was strange at the time but didn't read much into it. A week or so later I was adjusting the fin while in the boat and I had the ski flipped opposite of how I normally adjust it, and noticed the fin was measuring .030" shallow. At first I thought the fin had moved but I checked the depth on both sides of the fin and saw that it was indeed the correct depth on the other side. There was just something about that ski that was off.

 

At first I shimmed the fin block to even out the depth. My onside turn all of the sudden sucked, and the ski was much slower on my onside pull.

 

That's when it occurred to me what was going on. Caldwell and I started shoving washers under our fin blocks from that day forward, and I've done it to countless other skiers' skis. I've yet to see someone who didn't ski better after doing it.

 

With your average fin block (HO, D3, Goode, Radar, etc.) you can really only get to about .040" offset. We designed the Denali fin block with a bigger gap between the front and back mounting holes, so there's more room for the ski to deflect. We can hit about .070" of depth difference from one side to the other. It's awesome.