Conversation with Adam Cord 4/3/16

[Deanoski]

RFF skier washer on the left side LFF washer on right side correct?

[AdamCord]

@Deanoski correct

[skidawg]

how thick a washer?

[Wish]

@skidawg For what it's worth, I've used an average washer..smaller then a dime with average thickness. Then tried an average washer with a thin washer added and then just 2 average washers taking out the thin. Don't have the thickness but I think you'll find only a couple thickness at your average hardware store. It's not rocket science and its trial and error as to the feel. Try using just one then add a thin or thick washer and give each a go. This is why their fin block is genius. You can micro adjust to your liking.

[alex38]

Will it work if offside is 2.502 and onside is 2.478?

[Than_Bogan]

@alex38 0.024" is a perfectly reasonable offset to try, if that's what you mean by "work."

[alex38]

Great, I'll post results in a couple hours.

[ozski]

From factory my Nano XT is a LFF but when I checked I found it deep on the onside which I've now adjusted so it will be interesting to see how it skis. If there is one comment I would make about the Nano it would be that the onside could be a touch better (for me) so this might just be the secret sauce, not that it needed it.

[alex38]

Pretty cool adjustment, definitely felt a better onside while maintaining my sort of lights out offside. Thanks for all those who posted.

[Deanoski]

Is it the difference in fin pressure that makes this work?

 

Added a washer today was 2.480 left side. 2.470 right. With washer in. 2.460 left right 2.470

 

Faster onside just running -32 today

Great thing to have in the tool box

[Drago]

If you are looking for a selection of washer thicknesses, a good local bike shop should have many. They are used to align disk brake calipers

[Rivvy]

I tried to drink the kool-aid last night and it didn't seem to help. I'm not the greatest skier but every pass seemed like work. I'm on a 1st gen vapor. Could be the waters cooling off. I switched back and hope to get some passes in tonight or tomorrow night to validate. I'm a 34 mph skier -22-32'. Could this mean I could benefit from a deeper fin setup?

[alex38]

crazy thing for me was before I put the washer in I measured the other side and it read shallower! I had to reset so I had desired depth on offside before I could even begin the experiment. then added washer to onside. Then I reset the length and dft.

 

I measured length from the other side and that too read differently.

 

My ski must be twisted?

 

I'm no finball wizard but definitely ran the best -32 in a while. Very fast turns had to adjust timing.

[S1Pitts]

Tried this washer trick out today and was very pleased with the results. 2015 67 inch Blue Vapor LFF - DFT 0.725 Length 6.850 Depth Offside 2.484 Depth Onside 2.441

 

Turns became very symmetrical and overall and made the ski super friendly. Tail felt like it rode a bit deeper and did not seem to carry speed out to the turn quite as much . 34mph @ 32 off.

 

Could not try the increase length washer on the on side because Radar fin clamp is split type and it would not deflect the ski downward at the forward screws. Anyone know where to get a one piece fin clamp that bolts up to inserts?

KR

[Triplett]

@S1Pitts The fin wont deflect at the front and back screws. The limit with the radar block is about 0.050 max, and you are already pretty close to that. The issue is the distance between the front and back fin screws is not large enough to deflect the ski past that. The Denali fin box is has these screws farther from the deflection point, allowing about double the offset. I don't think a one piece fin clamp will help too much with what I think you are trying to achieve.

 

I hope that answers your question.

[BlueSki]

Add another to list of those using this trick. Tried it yesterday and took only a couple of passes to adjust. I fell on my opener, twice, but it was almost immediately after lunch. One of those was simply due to a "holy crap, that is great angle and I am flying to two ball!" After the opener of set one, it felt good. Second set was sweet and tied my PB at 35. Good stuff.

[S1Pitts]

@Triplett thanks for the reply. I guess the only option left here is a new Denali. LOL

(Do you hear me Santa???)

The ski just keeps feeling better with each set as I continue to adjust to the new feel. The fall weather is certainly indicating the season is coming to a close. So sad.

KR

[Horton]

Bump for @swbca

[MISkier]

I can confirm this washer under the fin block works tremendously well.  I believe the washer on mine is .030 thick.

Edited:  this is the setup on my old ski.   I have not skied my new ski yet and will do so without adding the washer first.

Edited March 8 by MISkier

[MISkier]

@swbca, I seem to recall that Denali fins had something similar to what you describe.  I don't have a picture, but I thought the holes were drilled at a slant.

Edited:  here is a picture.

Edited March 8 by MISkier

[Horton]

@swbca I can't exactly answer for @AdamCord but I am confident the the impact of tuning the trailing edge of a fin would be extremely minimal. The ideal fin has a rounded leading edge to minimize lift and a square trailing edge to limit base drag. Most stock fins are have rounded edges all the way around and that is fine.

The CG fin made by Denali effectively has more surface area on one side than the other because of the 45 degree drilled holes.  Less fin surface for onside turns helps balance the difference between on side and off side.

[Adam Caldwell]

@swbca Sharpening the trailing edge of a fin to a point, or going with a full radius or a complete flat will all have fairly significant impacts on how the ski rotates through the finish  of the turn and moves off the second wake.  At least in my experience.  May not be as noticeable at 34 or 32mph but it sure is noticeable at 36.

You can run heavy biased 45deg to one side only (on leading or trailing edge) and create some pretty cool effects.

If your curious, get out a file and hop on the platform between passes and take a few swipes at the fin.  Just make sure you have a couple spares beforehand!

 

[Horton]

Ok well whatever listen to @Adam Caldwell 

[Adam Caldwell]

@swbca

Doesnt matter where you are.  

My experience was that after I added 30k offset...ski got faster and earlier to 2 ball with more speed.  So i added more depth to slow down the 2 ball.  Then, to keep my 1 ball the same I had to add more offset.  then it got stuck behind me at 2 ball, So then I pulled the fin back more, and it got faster again..so I went deeper and added more offset again...went through that cycle about 4 times until I was nearly 100k offset.

My first time past 4@41 in practice with 100k offset and fin about 30k back from where I started, with just about the same length.  I think I was roughly 2.530 and 2.430.  Would have to dig up some numbers to be certain.

Not ALL skis and skiers are going to need the same. At 34 or 32 I'm not sure 100k is remotely close to necessary, but 30k can be spectacular.  

The nice thing is its a lot better then filing on a ski or a fin and making changes you cannot undo.

[Horton]

Here are my thoughts on the matter: Fin offset serves as an additional dimension for fine-tuning. It's crucial to have solid baseline settings before delving into this aspect. While someone like @adamCaldwell, with expert skills, may not be as affected, mere mortals risk getting lost in adjustments and consuming excessive boat gas.

Assuming the initial settings are sound, many skiers may find it beneficial to have more exposed fin on the off-side and less on the on-side. This is due to the biomechanics of slalom skiing, where it's easier to induce tail sliding on the off-side than the on-side. Consequently, an optimal setup for the off-side might result in less-than-ideal sliding on the on-side.

Addressing your question – if your initial depth is .15 away from the ideal, you are not within a reasonable starting range (as .15 constitutes a substantial variance). Adding .15 depth to a well adjusted ski without any other adjustments would likely cause the ski's tip to hit your forehead at the off-side and then straight line out past the on-side.

Additional thoughts:

The Denali CG fin achieves the same effect without requiring manual adjustments to the exposed fin on each side. I'm aware of at least one elite skier who cross cutt the holes on their fin to achieve a similar outcome.

With the Denali C65 being the exception, every ski designed in the last 20 years aims to balance the difference between on-side and off-side mechanics without manipulating the ski shape around the fin.

Notably, the most technically proficient skiers exhibit as much or more slide at the on-side compared to the off-side. For a masterclass in on-side turns, observing skiers like Freddie Winter or Will Asher's 2/4/6. (And on a side note, have you seen that Italian kid with the remarkably impressive left foot forward 1/3/5?)

[Horton]

[Adam Caldwell]

All things being equal. You can design a ski to be as symmetric as possible....for most.

Despite the best efforts of any designer.  The moment someone with a little bow in their legs, or more pronated feet, or stiff ankles, hips, knees, or some quirky binding setup, there will ALWAYS be an opportunity to improve the synergy and balance between the skier and the fin through asymmetrical fin tuning.
 

[6balls]

...and for all but the best of the best, there will always be an opportunity to tweak technique for far better gains than gains on equipment...granted one is on a high quality product.  Not to say that equipment changes can't help us all to a degree--particularly if our technique is what it is--and more difficult to manipulate for a variety of reasons--tweak the equipment for the technique embedded.

For most--I suspect there are some nuggets on technique that would yield larger gains.  For those with excellent/reproducible/consistent technique the equipment tweaks are more important.  It's cool to see the envelope pushed both on technique and equipment.    

  

[Drago]

I've been adding a washer ever since I heard about it. I set up for a good onside and really good offside (where I never want to blow the fin), add the washer and get ripping.