Judging Question

[ski6jones]

Based on what @FracBurner said, how would a skier on their opening pass at 15 off and max speed be scored in this same situation? 6 or more?

[MISkier]

@ski6jones, I have a tournament score from a couple of weeks ago that is a 6 and shows the line length as 16 meters and the speed as 55 kph. I always thought that would be a 78, but somehow they are able to just record it as a 6 at the opt up line and speed. I admit that I don't understand the reasoning.

[Horton]

If skier = @Thager score = 0

If skier = @MS score = 6 @ 38

If skier = @skidawg score = 6 @ 39 provided he had the handle when he passed the exit gates

[Mateo_Vargas]

If skier = @rico or @Detrick score = 5

[JWebSki]

So if a skier on their opener rounds 6 and then heads to an imaginary 7 ball therefore missing the exit gates early does the skier get a score of 6 at the slowest speed and long line or at their opening speed?

[Horton]

No unless skier = @MrJones

[Horton]

@JWebSki the the real answer is yes that is correct

[BRY]

I don't see the issue. The rule book does cover this:

 

Rule 10.06 D. 3. C (page 48 2016 rulebook)

If the skier elects to opt up in this manner then the skier must complete the selected pass to receive credit for the skipped pass and/or passes. If the pass is not completed the skier will receive credit for buoys at what would have been the consecutive rope length or speed.

 

Seems clear that the pass must be complete to get credit for the opt up. Brings the question "what is a complete pass?" The rule book does define this for us as well:

 

Rule 10.01 A. (page 44 2016 rulebook, very first slalom rule)

The contestant shall follow the towboat through the entrance gate of the slalom course, pass around the outside of any or all six buoys and proceed through the far end gate which constitutes a pass. If the contestant has not missed any buoys or gates, the boat shall turn and enter the course from the opposite end. The skier shall continue in this manner until he falls or misses a buoy or gate.

 

In this, the very first rule for slalom, it is specifically stated what a complete pass requires. Three components: entrance gate, six buoys, end (exit) gate. Unless a skier completes all these components then it is not a complete pass and opt up credit should not be awarded.

 

Specifically stated with a miss on the end (exit) gate (a miss also defined in the rule book so won't put it here), even if 6 points awarded, opt up credit is not awarded. I don't see it vague at all. One can agree or disagree as to if the rule is proper but I don't see any interpretation room. "must complete the selected pass to receive credit" and "proceed through the far end gate which constitutes a pass" seem pretty clear to me.

[The_MS]

If I come out of 6, I run the pass.

[LeonL]

@BRY the issue is apparently, what constitutes a complete pass, 6 buoys or 6 buoys plus passing through exit gates

[Horton]

IF @skidawg made it out the gates before the crash then 6 @ 39 if he crashed before the gates then 6 @ 38. End of story. I am 100% sure. Would bet a lot of beer I am correct.

[BRY]

@LeonL Kinda a main point of my post above. I agree in this thread, as you state, "the issue is apparently, what constitutes a complete pass, 6 buoys or 6 buoys plus passing through exit gates."

The answer:

Rule 10.01 A. (page 44 2016 rulebook, very first slalom rule)

The contestant shall follow the towboat through the entrance gate of the slalom course, pass around the outside of any or all six buoys and proceed through the far end gate which constitutes a pass. If the contestant has not missed any buoys or gates, the boat shall turn and enter the course from the opposite end. The skier shall continue in this manner until he falls or misses a buoy or gate.

In this, the very first rule for slalom, it is specifically stated what a complete pass requires. Three components: entrance gate, six buoys, end (exit) gate. Unless a skier completes all these components then it is not a complete pass and opt up credit should not be awarded.

 

Specifically stated with a miss on the end (exit) gate (a miss also defined in the rule book so won't put it here), even if 6 points awarded, the pass was not complete so opt up credit is not awarded per Rule 10.06 D. 3. C (page 48 2016 rulebook, also in my post above.)

 

 

[Gloersen]

@BRY - concur. The fact that a skier gets through the exit gates, then pops the handle ("explodes"), disqualifies the skier from entering the next pass. (the 4th component to a preceding successful pass = qualifying traverse of the exit gates; "If the contestant has not missed any buoys or gates, the boat shall turn and enter the course from the opposite end.").

 

Therefore a score of 6NC (regardless of crossing the exit gates in an unqualifying manner) is not a "complete" pass and ineligible for the opt up score; in the scenario presented - score = 6@11.25m

[klindy]

@BRY that's what I said 30 or so posts above.

 

I also think a rules interpretation is in order.

[ToddL]

We could've just said, you don't get "6" without exit gates and be done with this (such that any handle pop prior to exit gates scores 5.5). However, that is not what the existing rules say.

 

So, now we have this issue where 6 is separate from gates and clarification is definitely in order.

 

Fall / Loss of Handle - Points of assessment:

returned to the boat guide line prior to the exit gates after successfully skiing entrance gates and rounding all 6 buoys

• a) with slack but with handle in hand

• b) without slack, under boat's pull

passing through the exit gates

• a) with slack but with handle in hand

• b) without slack, under boat's pull

retaining/regaining skiing position under the support of the boat and setting down

 

Questions:

Should we separately define the concepts of scoring 6 vs. completing vs. continuing?

When does the prior pass score in full (1a, 1b, or 2a)?

Based upon above, what does the score reflect?

How should scoring work given the above when an opt up is at play?

What determines if the skier gets to continue? (3)

Do these answers above require two different types of 6 score designations?

 

 

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My opinion/answers:

Should we separately define the concepts of 6 buoys vs. completing vs. continuing? Yes

When does the prior pass score in full (1a, 1b, or 2a)? 2a

Based upon above, what does the score reflect?

1a = just 6 buoys in sequence, no opt up, score 6, but incomplete

1b = just 6 buoys in sequence, no opt up, score 6, but incomplete

2a = completed pass, including any opt up buoys

2b = completed pass, including any opt up buoys

3 = completed pass, including any opt up buoys, plus the ability to continue

 

Do these answers above require two different types of 6 score designations? Yes.

6 (with continuation assumed if unstated)

6 NC (No Continuation, but means credit for completed pass including opt up)

6 Ic (Incomplete, credit for 6, but not exit gates, no opt up credit)

 

[BRY]

@klindy Yep, you did. But people were still going round stating it's not clear and/or how to call it. So I tried to post the rule that applies as succinctly as possible, let the rule speak for its self. Not sure what needs to be interpreted, I think the rules state clearly what's what.

Early in the thread @ral called it correct per the rules:

"If he went thru the gate in skiing position with the rope in hand, it is a pass. If not, it isn't."

 

Soon after @ToddL called it correct per the rules:

"1) Missing the exit gates too early would result in a 6 ball score but not a complete pass and no continuation. Since there was no completed pass, the score would go in as the next sequential speed/line (-38 in the above example).

 

2) However, if the handle/skiing position was lost after successfully skiing out the exits gates, then the pass was completed. There is still no continuation, but in this case the score should reflect a completed pass at the opt up speed/line (-39)."

 

Not sure where @ToddL is going on the post just previous but he may have something. IMHO I think the rules as written don't require additional verbiage, more words probably just get more confusing. An additional 6 designation, his "IC Incomplete", possibly. But that's a recording issue, the score unaffected.

 

[ToddL]

@BRY. My post above was a road map to help think through the issue.

 

Most people see this as black/white

1) 6+gate is a pass and thus a score

2) 6 with no gate is not a pass

 

But the rules don't address the score. And the concept of continuation makes it confusing.

 

Thus there are 3 possiblities:

1) 6 w gate w continuation

2) 6 w gate, no continuation

3) 6 w/o gate - really exists per rules

 

It must be clear how to score each, including how to handle opt ups.

[TravisNW]

The correct score is 6 no continuation regardless of before or after the gates, the skier failed to complete the pass since he didn't ski away from 10.75. The score 6 @ 11.25 is correct so really the system worked. You can't consider this running the pass, being in a stance on the ski and being on the ski in skiing position ie (towed by the boat) are two different things. In one case you go to the next pass, the other your swimming.

 

The rules used to be that in order to get a full buoy at any point through the course you just had to make it back to the wake or nearest boat guide but that was changed to the current standard in consideration of safety.

 

Opting up is great, it brings excitement to the sport and allows for strategy as a skier, its a gamble that can save energy and provide a conditions advantage. In order to win this bet needs to be completed fair and square.