Judging Question

[skidawg]

Scenario: skier runs 32, 35, opts up to 39, runs it - lots of slack at 6: gets back inside boat path, takes big hit- explodes out the front??? What say the masses? 6 no continuation? @klindy ?

[Andre]

Did he went through the exit gates before exploding?

[Chef23]

I believe it is 6NC. There are different rules for the end gates.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

6 no continuation

 

[skidawg]

The computer was not letting the scorer enter 6 nc- any ideas? It's a big difference in score since it's an opt up

[spicoli]

Academy sports has some precut that's about as good as any , sure northern does to.if u buy at home depot or something and you want the nice black u just have to get it on 12 ft roll so you will have some extra

[ral]

If he did not go thru the gates, 6@ 38.

 

He missed 39, as he did not exit thru the gates. He did not complete the opt-up pass (IWSF 14.01, do not know which AWSA rule it is, but doubt it would be much different...).

[skidawg]

Rule changed for exit gates, have to make back to center, ski away and tight line not necessary

[ral]

At the gate, back to center with slack means 6 and not 5.5. But it does not mean the pass was completed.

The contestant shall follow the tow boat through the entrance gate of the slalom course (Diagram 1), pass around the outside of any or all 6 buoys and proceed through the far end gate (constituting a pass), making the turn and returning through the course in a similar fashion, until he misses a buoy or a gate or falls.

 

The boat shall follow a straight path as close to the centerline of the course as

possible.

 

The boat shall follow a straight path within the limits of the boat gate buoys. The skier may elect to waive all passes below a selected rope length (or speed should the Event Judges lower the minimum starting speed). In such cases the skier may notify the dock official of his selected rope length (or speed) any time before he starts his run. A skier who fails to select his starting speed at the specified time, will start at the maximum starting rope length and minimum speed for the event.

 

Further optional selection of slalom passes is also allowed. If a skier misses in a pass that follows an optionally skipped pass, he/she shall be scored as if the buoys were scored in the pass following the last completed pass.

 

If he went thru the gate in skiing position with the rope in hand, it is a pass. If not, it isn't.

[lpskier]

@ral I believe your analysis and conclusion are correct. The exit gate is part of a "pass" and the pass has to be completed to get credit for the skipped pass/rope length. #iskiconnelly

[Chef23]

I agree if the skier didn't get out the exit gates they don't get credit for the full pass which would mean no credit for the opt up.

[MISkier]

What would happen if the skier made it through the gates with the handle and subsequently was caught in the curl of the wake and fell between the gates and the setdown area?

[LeonL]

@skidawg, we never did find out if the skier went through the exit gates. You initially mentioned "inside the boat path", which means nothing really. Where exactly did said "explosion" occur? If the skier went through the exit gate, then fell, it's 6-nc and the score should reflect -39. However if the skier went, say to the right of the gate, it's still 6-nc but the score should probably be -38.

[ToddL]

@LeonL's two scenarios are a clear way to get at the correct answer.

 

1) Missing the exit gates too early would result in a 6 ball score but not a complete pass and no continuation. Since there was no completed pass, the score would go in as the next sequential speed/line (-38 in the above example).

 

2) However, if the handle/skiing position was lost after successfully skiing out the exits gates, then the pass was completed. There is still no continuation, but in this case the score should reflect a completed pass at the opt up speed/line (-39).

 

The real question here is this: Does the scoring program have a solution to record what happened correctly? I am pretty sure that the scoring could enter #1 in as 6NC and the buoy count would reflect a -38 result. In order to reflect the -39 result, the scorer would enter in a normal 6 at the opt up speed. Then, indicate that the skier did not successfully attempt the entrance gates at -41. Thus, the score would reflect the buoy count of the -39 result.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@skidawg the real question is did anyone capture your explosion on video?

[lpskier]

@MISkier Same result #iskiconnelly

[LeonL]

As @ToddL said, if the scoring program doesn't have the appropriate solution to properly reflect what the score should be, some common sense logic can be applied to render a correct score.

[skidawg]

It was in the E - unfortunately no video, boat judge did say the ejection happened thru the gates, on a high note, my arms are now an inch longer

[MattP]

@skidawg from your description that might change things if you made it through the gates with the handle.

[Horton]

I would suggest the skier simply go home and cry in his IPA

[skidawg]

No need to cry @Horton - just want the 6@39 in the books, i have other scores better than that for the weekend. It seems like a gray area that needs addressing.

[Triplett]

This is a tricky one. In my view, you have to ski away for the score to be at 39. This would mean you were entering the course on the next pass at 41, meaning the lowest score you could get is 0@41, I think that equates to 114 @ 36 and 108 @ 34.

 

If you fall after the gates, I still think that counts as a 6 NC, which to me would mean no run of of the opt, you get a score of 6 @ 38.

 

 

[MrJones]

Having been there, you would really have to go with boat judge's call on it in regard to through the gates or not. The way the judging is set up no one has a perfect lateral view of the gates to call it. From the amount of speed present when you throw your ski around 6 at 39 my thought is that you would be through the gate by the time it comes tight.

 

Alternate though. Did they look at the gate cameras and see if they could tell that way?

[jlittle]

I believe the scoring program can handle this. Missing the gate to the 6 ball side is 5 1/2. Pretty standard. Enter the score & time. Click Skier Done.

 

Getting back to the line of the gate buoys & loosing the handle, falling or missing the gates to the right hand side would be 6 NC. The scorer would need to know the skier missed the exit gates. Enter the score, uncheck the exit gate box & enter the time. Click Skier Done. The program should take care of the scoring portion at that point.

 

Getting out the exit gates is also 6 NC. At this point you enter the 6 & the time (exit gate boxes stay checked) then click Skier Done. A window will pop up asking for an explanation. You type in Skier lost handle & click OK. Or skier decided he was scared to try the next pass. Or skier went to the hospital to fix separated shoulders. Or what ever. The program should take care of the score.

 

My memory is not that great but I think this is how the computer portion is handled.

[teammalibu]

I was the boat judge and Ward was clearly back inside the boat path with a ton of slack when the rope got tight and he took the hit he was still ahead of the exit gates! After the explosion and he went through the exit gates he still had the handle but all you could see was his ass and the Velcro on the bottom of his binding plate! Score of 6 NC no credit for the opt up! Great skiing this weekend dawg and the Tiger as well! Also a shout out to Wards son Logan who is taking a break from skiing so he could do a little dominating at the Road Bike Nationals!

[ral]

@Triplett, if you fall after the gate, fail your following waterstart or miss the entry gate on the next pass, you get the exact same score. 0@41 is the same score than 6@39.

[DaveD]

What if he held onto the rope and tumbled up?

[MISkier]

@DaveD, I think the skier would be able to continue, per the rule below (especially the last sentence):

 

8.06 A Fall

A fall in any event is when any one of the following occurs:

A. The skier loses possession of the tow line (except as noted in Rules 9.11,

10.11 and 11.11); or

B. The skier does not have at least one ski on one foot; or

C. The weight of the skier is not primarily supported by his ski or skis, and in

addition the skier is unable ultimately to regain skiing position.

 

If the skier does not lose possession of the tow line, has at least one ski on at all times, and ultimately regains skiing position, there has been no fall.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@daved I actually saw that in a tournament some 30 years ago - a (rather crazy) skier hit 5 ball, yard saled, lost his ski, but held onto the rope and tumbled up and barefooted to the end of the lake. Funny as hell at the time and pretty impressive, but alas his weight was not supported by the ski, so no score.

 

I'm willing to make sizeable wager that there is no way Skidawg could manage that feat.

[MISkier]

@DaveD, your question reminded me of this video.

 

[skidawg]

@Bruce_Butterfield wouldn't even consider it

[Roger]

Here is the rule:

2. The end gate case is different because of the spacing and thus if the skier

can cross the gate line before the end gate buoy he will be awarded the

full buoy.

a. This specifically means that the skier is permitted to have slack going

through the exit gates. If the skier skis away then he may continue.

b. If the skier does not ski away, the turn ends and the skier scores 6

provided they crossed the line of the boat buoys before the end gate

with or without a slack line.

 

Based on the rule, and the description of his run, he should be scored 6 no continuation AND be credited with the opt up. I have checked with our local Clinic administrator and he agrees. The rule makes no mention of the skier needing to get out the gates.

[klindy]

@Roger here's the general rule about slalom -

10.01 General

A. The contestant shall follow the towboat through the entrance gate of the

slalom course, pass around the outside of any or all six buoys and proceed

through the far end gate which constitutes a pass. If the contestant has not

missed any buoys or gates, the boat shall turn and enter the course from the

opposite end. The skier shall continue in this manner until he falls or misses a

buoy or gate.

 

The problem with the scenario that @skidawg had is that the gate isn't judged directly so a "6NC" because he made it to the boat path buoy line but not the gates is the same as a "6NC" because he lost the rope after the gate (yard sale, accidental fall or unable to continue for another reason). There is no distinguishing the difference in the scoring program. It seems reasonable that one (making it thru the gates) WOULD allow the opt up buoys to count and the other (getting to the boat path but failing to go thru the exit gates) would NOT add the opt up buoys. So even missing the gates on the hard side would mean 6 for the pass but no continuation and no buoys for the skipped pass.

 

This same scenario is set up where a skier goes from below max speed to max speed with some skipped passes (starting at 34/15off and next pass is 36/15off). Also lots of potential scenarios like this with the new junior rule for speeds/line lengths in class C tournaments.

[Roger]

I disagree, his score is 6 at 10.75 with no continuation. There is nothing in the rule about having to exit the gates to gain the opt pass. 6 is 6 and therefor he should be awarded the previous pass(es). If the rules committee wants the opt up to not count on a 6 no continue, then it needs to be clearly stated in the rule and it's not.

[skidawg]

Ha, who woulda thought my yard sale would bring about intelligent conversation. Looks like the rule committee needs to address this and put it in writing.

[MISkier]

I recently also received a 6 with no continuation on an opener and wondered why it showed a 6 in the scorebook. I would have thought it would be the score associated with the line length and speed full pass. I didn't see how you could just be scored a 6.

[LeonL]

Contrary to my previous post, I see nothing in the rules that should deny the opt up pass if 6nc is the call. I agree with @Roger

EDIT. .c. If the skier elects to opt up in this manner then the skier must complete the selected pass to receive credit for the skipped pass and/or passes. If the pass is not completed the skier will receive credit for buoys at what would have been the consecutive rope length or speed.

There is nothing in the above mentioned rule that uses the phrase "perfect pass". It just says "complete the selected pass". I know this is subject to interpretation, but for me "6" means completed.

[Roger]

After a long conversation with an x rules committee member, we think the 6 at 38 is probably correct as a perfect pass includes the exit gates. However, we both feel 6 at 39 SHOULD be the score and he is contacting the rules committee to look into this scenario.

 

[MrJones]

My college roommate fell around 6 ball and out the gate one year at Collegiate Nationals. He was super mad and held on. He did a perfect tumble turn and skied away. No continuation, but the cool thing was he didn't know how to barefoot! Just a ticked off really athletic guy with good balance.

[jlittle]

So, riddle me this...

 

Skier A goes 32, 35, 38, 39. Gets around the 6, back to the buoy line and looses the handle before the gates.

 

Skier B goes 32, 35, Opts to 39 with the same scenario as above.

 

My opinion is Skier A should receive the higher buoy count. Which is basically what Roger, Leon & Keith are discussing.

[skidawg]

They should tie in theory, both ran 39 with same exit hate scenario!

[jlittle]

Some clarification of a "complete pass" or "perfect pass" is probably in order.

 

So we have a tie. Neither skier, however, again IMHO, completed the pass as they both have no credit for the exit gate.

 

On to the run off. They both will start at the last completed pass. Which is? Does Skier A have a gripe because Skier B's last completed pass was 35? No, if credit is given for the opt up 39. Wait, we've already determined it's a tie, so credit was given.

 

OK, let's say Skier B, in his initial set, gets out the exit gates then looses the handle. Is it still a tie? I'd be kind of pissed if I were Skier B and I ended up in a run off since I got out the gates even though the scores are the same.

 

So, when is credit given for a complete pass?

 

Not trying to be an ass, just trying to think this through.

[ral]

@Roger, as you state in your last posting, under the current rules it is 6@38. A rule change is needed to consider that 6 buoys and no exit gate allows the opt-up to count.

[Roger]

The rules committee are looking at this thread.

[jlittle]

The more I think about my scenario, credit for the pass could be given as that is a separate issue from placement. Both guys would tie and get credit for 39.

 

The placement, all skiers with the same score, would look a little different. And there would be no ties. For instance.

 

1st - 0@ 41

2nd - 6@ 39 w/exit gates

3rd - 6@ 39 w/o exit gates

 

Sorry if that was too obvious. When my Havalon gets dull I change the blade. Sometimes I wait too long however.

[MrJones]

Well, if somebody's looking, my suggestion is that if you get out of the gate on the ski in any fashion with the handle in your hand it's 6. Pop it behind boat but before the gates 5.5.

 

I realize that someone who pops the handle after the gate has technically not skied as well as someone who misses the gate going in on the next pass, but to change that you would have to maybe change the definition of what a completed "pass" is. Would it have to be from picking up on one end of the lake to dropping on the other??

 

I was at a tournament where a guy pulled out to drop and the driver turned away from him really hard pulling the handle from his hand. They gave him a re-ride on "driver error", but how would that fit in.

 

Fun to think about stuff that happens very rarely.

[ToddL]

IWWF: on Slalom

14.01: General

The contestant shall follow the tow boat through the entrance gate of the slalom course (Diagram 1), pass around the outside of any or all 6 buoys and proceed through the far end gate (constituting a pass), making the turn and returning through the course in a similar fashion, until he misses a buoy or a gate or falls.

 

14.07: Scoring Buoys

A buoy not missed is scored as follows, up to the point of the first miss:

a) 1/4 point when the skier crosses the line C-D AND the X-Y line in a skiing position (12.03). (See sketch).

b) 1/2 point when the skier has re-crossed line C-D in skiing position (12.03) before the level of the next buoy or end gate.

c) 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys (on a tight line under power of the boat and in skiing position) before passing the level of the next buoy (or the end gate in the case of the final buoy). This is a clarification, not a change of intent of the rule.(12.02).

 

The intent of the tight line is to ensure the safety of the skier. This means that if the skier can only cross the line of the buoys with a slack line then he will not get the full point so there is no reason to try that. The end gate case is different because of the spacing and thus if the skier can cross the gate line before the end gate buoy and ski away he will be awarded the full buoy. This specifically means that the skier is permitted to have slack going through the exit gates. If the skier skis away then they may continue. If the skier does not ski away, the turn ends and the skier scores 6 provided they crossed the line of the boat buoys before the end gate with or without a slack line. The skier may exit the gate with slack line. A gate is not scored in any manner.

 

14.08: The end of the run

A contestant in either a preliminary or final round may continue to run the course as provided in 14.01 until he misses a buoy, entrance or end gate or fall, at which point his scoring ends for that round.

[ToddL]

I think IWWF is also vague in this situation.

 

It can be interpreted both ways:

a) Exit Gates merely determine the ability to continue. A score of 6 means the opt up speed/line is achieved regardless of the exit gates.

b) Exit Gates define the completion of the pass. A score of 6NC does not reflect any skipped speeds/lines.

 

So, the purpose/definition of the Exit Gates needs to be specified, and then the scenario discussed will be clearly determined.

 

 

Regarding Class C Juniors, this issue in this thread is NOT relevant unless the junior elects to skip something. (@klindy)

Examples:

LL 30mph, LL 32mph, LL 34mph, LL 36mph, -15 36mph, -22 36mph = nothing skipped.

-15 30mph, -15 32mph, -15 34mph, -15 36mph, -22 36mph = nothing skipped.

-15 30mph, -15 32mph, -22 32mph, -22 34mph, -22 36mph = nothing skipped.

Skiers are allowed to either shorten or speed up 1 step as a sequential progression.

 

However:

LL 30mph, LL 34mph*, LL 36mph, -15 36mph, -22 36mph = contains a skip.

LL 30mph, LL 32mph, -15 34mph**, -15 36mph, -22 36mph = contains a skip.

-15 30mph, -22 32mph**, -22 34mph, -22 36mph = contains a skip..

 

In the first example above, there is a traditional opt up from 30 to 34, skipping 32 while keeping the line the same.

 

In 2 of the examples above, the ** pass is an opt up where the skier chose to both shorten and speed up. Since two actions are taken, one constitutes a skip or opt up.

[jlittle]

Well the non-underlined portion of ToddL's post, right after the underlined portion, makes me stand corrected.

 

The gate is not counted whether you loose the handle before or after. So as long as you get back to the buoy line it's scored 6, the pass is complete, you should get credit and the only thing you cannot do is continue. Or that's how I'd interpret it.

[FracBurner]

Given that just about everybody's opener is an opt-up, is not there a lot of precedent on this ruling?