Purpose of MM and MW

[bigtex2011]

How many MM/MW ski all three events anymore. I think the overall point is MM/MW are better than the level 8 skiers and some level 8 skiers feel like there is no chance to medal.

 

Its a pickle. I'm a mid 38 off skier with very little chance of podium success at nationals.( I shouldnt get a medal for that score either) ...

My wife is the podium person in our family. Honestly, We pick and choose our nationals based on location/vacation with our 3 kids. If we are trying to get more people to national allow the top 7 or so to go natls out of regionals. I dont know why we are forced to ski regionals to go to nationals, but that is another topic.

 

We need change. Hopefully, there is a way to solve more issues than to create more.

[ToddL]

@MrJones - Ability-based divisions - used by many other sports. Getting everyone to agree on how many ability-base divisions is difficult.

 

In slalom, do you group pairs of speeds and pairs of ropes lengths? Too granular? Then what? Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it will be difficult to get traction on a division definition that the majority can accept.

 

Maybe NOPS Divisions make more sense. But the issue here is what the heck is a 750-1000 NOPS skier and how does one know, etc.? Nope. Doesn't translate to crowds.

 

Unless you just give the divisions non-techie names: Pro, Elite, Advanced, Intermediate, Progressing, Foundation, Novice.

 

Hmmm.

Pro = OM/OW

Elite = Avg into 39.5

Advanced = Avg into 38

Intermediate = Avg in 32/35

Progressing = Avg in 22/28

Foundation = Avg 1 pass below max speed through -15 at max

Novice = Avg up to 2 pass below max speed

 

Trick?

Pro = OM/OW, 9000+

Elite = Avg into 7000+

Advanced = Avg into 5000+

Intermediate = Avg in 3000+

Progressing = Avg in 1500+

Foundation = Avg into 750+

Novice = Avg below 750

 

Jump?

Pro = OM/OW, 200+

Elite = Avg into 190+

Advanced = Avg into 175+

Intermediate = Avg in 150+

Progressing = Avg in 100+

Foundation = Avg into 50+

Novice = Avg below 50

 

I'm sure the above has a ton of problems, (diff cutoffs for women v men?, fewer groups, diff cutoff points, etc.). But sometimes you have to start with a turd and then polish it.

[schroed]

I agree that ability based divisions would be really good for the sport. However, I do think you need some age group and gender division as well. I don't think many 45 year olds would be happy beating a 10 year old kid even if they were close in ability. If you look at mountain bike racing, they already have a model for the combination of ability based and gender/age groups. Mountain bike racing ability groups are novice, sport, expert, and pro. Then they have age groups in those ability divisions.

 

For water skiing, I don't think we have the numbers to support all the divisions that mountain bike racing has. However, I think you could easily split up water skiing by gender, have three age groups (juniors, adults, and seniors) with three ability divisions in each (novice, sport, expert). You could then have the Open divisions on top of that. That would give you 9 divisions per gender which is close to what we have today (plus Open). I would think the age groups would be: juniors under 18, adults 18+, seniors 35+. The ability based groups could be based off of the AWSA averages. Max speeds and jump ramp heights could be set for each division based both on ability and age group. For example, the max speed for novice juniors male slalom could be 30 MPH, sport junior male slalom 34 MPH, and expert junior male slalom, 36 MPH.

[ToddL]

@schroed - Nice solution! And results in similar # of divisions - a plus! However, some (myself included) might take issue with 35+ as the starting age for "seniors". I do understand your logic in that is where the max speed moves from 36 to 34.

 

It may also be prudent to recognize that Juniors have the added difficulty of that growth spurt and B2 discussions. Maybe ability levels within the larger bucket of Juniors would work. Smaller skiers might get grouped by ability better than by age. Also, imagine if a first-time 16 yo was competing with all of the other first-timer's regardless of age! Also, imagine that mega talented B2 skier beating up on the other Junior Experts.

[klindy]

@ToddL ... and you're back to debating all the same issues that has led us to where we are today.

[liquid d]

Every week before nationals....

[ToddL]

@klindy and clearly it still isn't solved or acceptable.

[BRY]

My understanding MM was so the top of each division could ski against each other to find the champion of champions, not to give lesser skiers (like me) a shot at podiums.

 

There is no way, even with the numbers at Nationals we have now, that every competitor has a shot at a podium. Say we were to take all Level 9 and put them in MM, then the top Level 8 ski it out and the bottom Level 8 still don't have a realistic shot. The Champion just moved from being the best skier to the skiers who happened to be just under an arbitrary cut off. Separating men from women and pro from amateur and by age is pretty established across almost all sports. Beyond that there ought to be a big boy (and girl) tournament somewhere for competition that is straight up, the best that shows wins. I think that ought to be what Nationals is for. Muck around with local C's however you want but keep the Championship the Championship.

[BRY]

For those who really want age divisions, how about these:

 

Men’s Novice – 14 & over – never made a full pass

Women’s Novice – 14 & over

Junior Novice – 13 & under

Junior 4th Class – 13 & under max speed 28 mph

4th Class – max speed 28 mph 15 off line length

3rd Class – max speed 30 mph 15 off line length

2nd Class – max speed 32 mph 15 off line length

1st Class – max speed 34 mph 15 off line length

Advanced – men 35 & over and all women, max 22 off @ 34 mph

Advanced Open – men 35 & over and all women 28 & 32 off @34 mph

Advanced Super Open – men 35 & over and all women, 35 off & shorter @ 34 mph

Junior Expert – 13 & under, working on 22 off @ max 34 mph (Must meet qualifications)

Expert – men 14-34, max 22 off @ 36 mph

Open – men 14-34, 28 off & up @ 36 mph

Super Open – men 14-34, 35 off & shorter @ 36 mph

Wide Ski Ride Fun – max 28 off @ 30 mph

Wide Ski Ride Super Fun – 32 off & up @30 mph

Wide Ski Ride Open – 38 off & up @30 mph

Men’s Pro Division

Women’s Pro Division

 

 

[klindy]

@BRY sounds like INT.

[BRY]

@klindy It is. Tested and tweaked ability level divisions ready to go!

[unksskis]

There needs to be a form of encouragement, or even expectation that one wants to achieve and ski Open. It would be pretty easy right now, Level 9 has to ski Open, although I'm the last that wants to force someone to do something, it should be naturally desired. Instead we're in a situation where a Pro can jump off a 6' ramp one weekend and get second in a Pro event, be the second ranked Pro in the US on the rankings list, and the next weekend drop the ramp height to 5' and set an amateur division record. I don't blame them, the situation has been created and not maintained. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[JWebSki]

Why don't we just have everyone ski in their age group divisions and then those who qualify for OM/OW or MM/MW ski additionally in those divisions of they want. If we exclude the best skiers from their age groups the national champion means nothing. This would also put a or more people in MM/MW, which is good, because they would get to ski twice. This makes an incentive for skiers to ski in MM/MW but still put the meaning back in the age group national champion. This would also solve the overall issue because you would ski all 3 events in your age division but can also ski MM/MW in one event of you qualify.

[Drago]

@unksskis he didn't have to game

[brettmainer]

I've always liked the idea of MM skiing 56.5k (35.1MPH). Anybody 35+ yrs old who has run -38 at 34.2 can move up to MM if they choose to. The 1.5kph speed increase may drop the MM scores a little. It would be more fun, but without all of the force that comes from full speed 36.

[DavidP]

Yes, I have always thought there should be something materially different to MM, like skiing at 35mph. I was a bit surprised to see a recently retired OW skiing W3 slalom, so not sure how MW can be made materially different than the age groups.

[skidawg]

Very surprised at the W3 nationals, not sure what the motivation is to win with your opening pass, especially when the MW division is available

[jdarwin]

@skidawg - EXACTLY!! What's the motivation to win an age division when you've skied Open for years? Either make it mandatory or eliminate MM and MW. It's a joke and only serving to further erode participation at Regionals and Nationals.

[disland]

G3 trick is another one

[MrJones]

I obviously agree. The truth is that it really stinks most for the skier who gets 6th instead of those who do medal. I don't know if that has been the case in any of the events mentioned, but I would hate to think I was keeping someone from getting on the podium for the first time for a win that is essentially meaningless.

[Chef23]

I am not sure what April's motivation was to ski W3 rather than MW. I know that April has stop competing professionally although she wouldn't win she would be competitive in OW still. I don't know how many women are in MW.

 

I totally get G3 tricks. I am pretty sure the top girls all 3 event and are competing for overall. That has been discussed in another thread though.

[brettmainer]

@rico, I do like that idea. I was a 3@38 @ 36mph skier a dozen years ago. I've burned thousands of dollars worth of gas in those 12 years to have a 34mph PB of 2.5@39.

[brettmainer]

I can guess at April's motivation. Chris skied Wednesday (and did awesome, running 38 in the runoff), and W3 also skied Wednesday. They would have had to hang around 2 more days for April to ski Friday in MW or OW. Time is money.

[Horton]

I have said it for years.... Open and Masters divisions do not belong at Nationals. Can't be angry at skiers who choose.... they have the option.

[LeonL]

When I first saw April,entered in W3, my first thought was I thought she made a big announcement "I'm retiring". Maybe I'm a little slow but I guess I thought she was quitting skiing competitively, not just moving down to kick amateurs around. Like @skidawg said her opening pass won the event, second place was, I think 4@28. Where's the glory in that? I know, I know the rule book says there shall be no differentiation between amateur and professional.....just saying!

[Marco]

My daughter is 7th seed in W1 today. The top 3 seeds in W1 all have their open rating. That will most likely affect the look of the podium at the end of the day. Funny how your perspective changes when you are closely invested in the results. I have a much clearer opinion of skiing down from your level at Nationals now.

[Marco]

As predicted, the OW go 1-2 in W1. My daughter finished 6th, just off the podium. Arrrrgh. At least she beat one of the open women!

[Horton]

My niece won Open Womens tricks. I'm absolutely thrilled for her and no one can take that from her but the top score in her age division was higher.

[MrJones]

I do have to say that I think it's different for the kids divisions. There are a few who are prodigies, but often only in one event. They also are often 3 event era and want to ski with their friends. If a jr wants to do that I think it's legit.

[darinmontgomery]

I know we've gotten off topic MM/MW, however, I agree with Mr Jones about the Juniors skiing in their age division. We are at a unique time with so many Open rated junior skiers. We should be celebrating their accomplishments rather posting about how they are keeping others from the podium. For an athlete, this should provide the fuel to train harder so next year they can be on that podium. For parents, this is teaching opportunity for your kids. Nothing in life is given to them, they must work hard to achieve their goals and someone will always be working harder to take their place.

[sunperch]

I spoke with April in Boise a couple of times, and she repeatedly said she felt bad about skiing in W3 but did not feel like she had much of a choice. She has retired from pro skiing and there is a rule that she cannot ski in OW for 3 years prior to her being considered for the hall of fame. She would have had to stay until Saturday to be able to ski in MW (her husband skied on Wednesday). She chose to ski on Wednesday in W3 so her family could leave for a family vacation for a few days prior to going back to work.

[Horton]

What she did is in the rules. I hold her in the highest regard. We really need to revisit the rules.

[LeonL]

@marco the fourth place finisher in W1 skied at our site for 10 years, until she left for college. Still comes back occasionally. What with pre-Med, her skiing time is seriously curtailed, so I'm really proud that she skied to her seeding.

[Marco]

@LeonL that is great. Congrats to her on her podium finish. The seeding was almost identical to the finish, within 1 or 2 placements. My daughter moved up 1 spot. Clutch skiing by all the girls in W1. They all seemed to ski at or close to their average. Thats pretty cool given the pressure of Nationals.

[MrJones]

Masters women skied the same day as open. If USA water ski told her that she couldn't ski open they are idiots. Open does not mean pro. Nationals is an amateur event.

[MrJones]

Sorry if that was a bit strong. After being gone since last Saturday we are still stuck in New Orleans as the roads to our house are flooded out. It's been a long week.

[ntx]

@MrJones. It sounds like they told her that her induction into the "hall of fame" would be delayed if she skied open. Sounds like she did not want to do that. So next options were W3 or MW. Looks like the schedule favored W3 since it was closer to when Chris skied.

 

Hope the flooding clears soon. Imagine the mess had this storm passed thru the weekend of regional. Good luck

[Marco]

@MrJones not sure what the disagree was for, I was just congratulating the W1 skiers. Sorry to hear that you are not able to get home after a long week away. I hope your house is OK. Great job getting on the podium in MM!

[MrJones]

Must have accidentally hit the disagree button. Don't have my cheaters on at the moment. Sorry about that.

 

It's all really fine. Good trip. Good stories. Good memories. Will do it all over again next year!

[skierjp]

This is what MW is for!!!!!