Current Promo Boat Rules

[jdarwin]

There is a shortage of promo boats across the country. For those of us who host tournaments, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find boats to pull our events. Should AWSA change the rule or should the boat manufacturers address with AWSA to resolve for 2017?

[Chuck_Dickey]

I am a Promo boat owner and have a 2014 Prostar that is a beautiful boat, strong, fast and everyone loves skiing and driving it. I'm in my 3rd year with this boat. Boat prices have increase so much that it's difficult to resell them in today's economy. Manufacturer's and dealers should take an active roll in reselling these boats, put them in the Promo's hands and if they don't sell within two years, swap them out for the new model.

 

Putting the whole financial burden on the Promo is what's killing the program. I shouldn't have to be out of pocket thousands of dollars to promote the brand and the sport.

[jdarwin]

@Chuck_Dickey - I hear that all the time from the current promo members. No factory support. But, let AWSA start down the road to eliminating the 2 year rule and the Big 3 will be in Orlando crying croc tears. You can't have it both ways, boys. Either eliminate the rule or support your promo programs. You are killing the tournament scene with this antiquated rule.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think this an example of crony capitalism at its worst. The boat manufactures are forced to pay a large fee to have each boat configuration tested and approved for tournament use. The last number I heard was $10k per configuration, but that was several years ago and word of mouth so I won't swear by it.

The boat companies need some ROI to justify the test cost, so they negotiate with usaws to require current year boats at tournaments.

This benefits usaws and the boat companies, but at the expense of the members.

Time for a change.

[Ilivetoski]

@jdarwin the big 3 don't sell many ski boats, they are less than 5% of their sales. They would just stop making the boats before they spent a lot of time and money negotiating how to fix this. So if we all stopped buying them they would be "crying croc tears", we would just wouldn't be able to buy anymore ski boats.

[oldjeep]

Possible unintended consequences - Mfg have no reason to sponsor tournaments or skiers if they are not selling their guaranteed 50? ish promo boats per year. Be interesting to see what the price point winds up being on the (3?) Malibu options for 2017

[BraceMaker]

I think for most "events" they should relax the rules substantially on boats. This will hopefully make events cheaper to run, allow more of the ski sites to use boats that they own to pull the event.

 

If the 2 year rule goes - I think the incentive would return to really develop stargazer and get lots of boats out there.

 

When you are at a private site and their newest boat can't pull events... Somethings broke.

 

Consider college teams - they need to have access to essentially current year boats? That's crazy.

[skier2788]

Why not change the rule to 2 years or current model. I.E. Nautique current model is 200 so any 200 can pull a tournament. Once Nautique comes out with a new model then only 2 year old or less 200's can pull.

[jdarwin]

@Ilivetoski - I understand your point but you must realize when those sales occur - during the offseason (Sept-Mar) - it provides needed cash flow during the winter months. So, it may only be 5% of sales but they are important sales nonetheless. And, I don't believe the ski boat market would evaporate any more than it already has.

[RazorRoss3]

The collegiate piece is especially hard because the benefit to the boat owner is even less. I'd ski anything with ZO in a heartbeat.

[Jody_Seal]

Ok!! Let's look at this closer and understand a few thing's. First and for most LOC's are not filling out towboat request forms. So manufacturer's do not know when and where to send boats. Most all tournaments are sanctioned by Jan, if LOC's would push the towboat request button when they do their on line sanction promo coordinators would have a list to go by. Now!! our own sanction organization let us down in the past by having a glitch in the system and not forwarding all this information. We have been told by Bob at headquarters this has been resolved...

 

An older boat can be utilized when a current model is unavailable in the two year policy. It just requires a rule exemption by contacting the region tow boat committee rep. This applies to Class -C tournaments also.

 

Now here is some sad news's !! Most promo boats of all manufacture from here on out will not send promo boat's to tournament's with less than 20 entry's. Get used to it as some of these guy's are driving 4-5 hours to support a 10 entry tournament. Unless of course the towboat resides on the lake that is holding the 10 entry event.

 

 

Many of these issues were discussed at the recent towboat meeting, minutes from meeting should be available soon.

 

Jody

[BraceMaker]

@RazorRoss3 - that's even the tournament side of it - consider all the training access for these teams. And also with collegiate there is the whole Fall/Spring issue in the northern states, some teams will get a boat for july-september but have not time effective way to have a boat in april/may (even if their water got warm enough).

 

Lots of these teams could own a ski boat for what they pay a year to lease a boat for a few months.

[RazorRoss3]

@BraceMaker, I skied collegiate in the Midwest, trust me I know. There are countless teams without boats, or practice locations because they are cost prohibitive. Even having access to something made in the last 10 years is a significant challenge when the purchasing party is 10 or 12 kids who are paying for college and not exactly good credit risks.

 

But that is a topic of a different conversation. The point here is that it can be very challenging to get tournament boats to all of the events especially on over booked weekends or in states with only 2 or 3 total promo boats of any make.

[jdarwin]

@Jody_Seal - I DO fill out the request form when I sanction my tournaments each January. Problem is, there are NO PROMO BOATS to be had. There is one Nautique 4 hours away. One Malibu 4 hours away and no MC's. The boat manufacturers have made it so cost prohibitive to be in the program, everyone is dropping out. Fortunately, we "may" have a 2016 Malibu for our 6 rounds of record in Sept. Coupled with a 14 Centurion (exception granted) and my 2007 SN 196 (exception granted). Problem is, the promo guys don't get much for bringing their boats. I put them up, feed them and provide free entry. I do more for the promo person than the damn boat company does!! I guess next year I'll just pull all my records with my 2007 196 and wait for the firestorm to hit when we submit a national record for approval!!

 

Edit: @Jody_Seal - If it's so easy to get an exception, then why does the rule exist at all?

[gregy]

I had to get out of a promo program in the early 90s, boat prices jumped up around then and the economy was wasn't the best. Think 92 was my last boat. I received mostly resistance from my local dealer. Maybe extend the requirement out to 3 or 4 years w/o exception.

 

There were several people that had boats on our college team we didn't have a team boat.

[Razorskier1]

high cost of boats kills the promo program. Way back when a promo guy could get a boat at a price that they might be able to recover on resale. At current prices, that isn't possible. I am not blaming anyone for boat pricing, just saying that if you buy a promo for $60k, you probably are going to lose money whether you sell it in one, two, or even three years.

 

I own a 2015 MC Prostar. If a friend was running a tournament and was out of options, I'd be willing to tow it a reasonable distance (under 2 hours) to help out once a summer, but I don't want to be towing it every other weekend (of course, I'm not a promo boat owner either). The number and availability of promo boats is declining, and will continue to decline. Perhaps we could get rid of the 2 year rule and find a way to broaden the network of boats if you could find people who were willing to share their personal boat once/year.

[RichardDoane]

As a former promo owner (2010-2016), I (like @Chuck_Dickey ) have supported quite a number of tournaments on my own dime for the past 2 seasons due to lack of support from my local dealer. Luckily I was still getting the factory's share of support. But as of next week my 2014 is sold, and unless the financial support returns to cover the expenses of bringing a boat to an event, I'm done.

[ToddL]

Regardless of the current new boat price, the promo cost must make sense to the potential Promo owner with respect to the used sales market price. #CaptainObvious!

 

If the 1-year used promo boat market "street" demand price is higher than what the promo owner initially pays for the new purchase promo boat, then the program will grow. In this scenario it is advantageous to be a Promo owner.

 

If the 1-year used promo boat market "street" demand price is equal to what the promo owner initially pays for the new purchase promo boat, then the program will not decay and likely even grow. In this scenario it is cost neutral to be a Promo owner. There may be added benefits like owning a current model for a year with net $0 cost once flipped.

 

Heck, if the 1-year used promo boat market "street" demand price is just a little under what the promo owner initially pays for the new purchase promo boat, then the program will not decay. In this scenario the cost of Promo ownership is like a monthly usage fee.

 

So, the key element is this: Can the Promo Program purchase price be low enough compared to the 1-year old, used demand sales price make sense to the potential promo owner?

 

If not, then we are screwed.

 

Maybe the Promo Program can become a 2 or 3 year lease model... Monthly rate agreed upon, manufacturer retains the title. Manufacturer can sell it at anytime and replace it with a currently approved model. If it stays in the promo "owner's" possession for more than 1 year, it is no big deal as they are just paying the monthly lease rate. Lease term expires in alignment with the AWSA usage rule.

 

[rodltg2]

Manufactures should drastically lower the price of ski boats and spread the loss over the wakeboard / surf boat line ! Make those guys pay for our fun Lol

[brettmainer]

+1 on @skier2788 comment. Almost voted for Option 1, then thought about whether it was a good idea to allow 1990s boats w ZO conversions to pull events.

 

There is a problem. In NorCal, I think we have it better than most, but still, the only traveling promo boats are Nautiques and Centurions. The Malibu and MC promo boats never leave their home lakes. Consequently, I put 12hrs on my 200 this weekend pulling a 2 day slalom and trick tournament. 100% of the trickers used the Nautique.

 

The overall promo boat problem is making it progressively harder on those few of us who remain, which discourages us from continuing, which imcreases the problem. I empathize with @Chuck_Dickey. I broke even on one boat in the last 10 years and lost money on all of the rest.

[oldjeep]

@rodtdg2 - or maybe just go back to making the tiny little no frills 20 year old closed bow boat that most on here seem to prefer. Hard to sell a 60-70K boat to a bunch of guys satisfied with an old nautique.

[brettmainer]

Declining participation in the sport coupled with the high cost of the boats is obviously the overarching problem.

 

That said, the "problem" was also partially created by Correct Craft 20yrs ago. They designed and built a boat of such high performance and quality that it is still hard to beat. Sure the new boats are a little better than a 196, but the difference between a new boat and a 1997 Nautique is nothing compared to the difference between a 1977 or even 1987 tournament boat and a 1997 Nautique.

 

Nowadays, you see a lot of 15yr old boats, still driving and skiing great. I don't think any of us in 2001 would have been as enthusiastic about a 1986 boat. Therefore, the intervals at which skiers turn their boats over seems to be getting larger.

[acmx]

It's the high prices on the new boats. How many people can realistically afford a mid $60,000 dollar boat? Seems like this sport is crumbling down around us sometimes.

[oldjeep]

@acmx - they are not having any trouble selling wake boats that start around 70-80K and go way up from there.

[acmx]

@oldjeep your missing the point.

[ToddL]

This sucks but consider this...

Average Cost of New Car Cars

1980 $7,200.00

1990 $16,950.00

2008 $27,958.00

2013 $31,352.00

 

IIRC, in the 80's new ski boats were about $20k new? So about 2.7 times the car average above.

So, based upon that factor,

1990: $45k?

2008: $75k?

2013: $85k?

[oldjeep]

What was the point?

[MISkier]

@ToddL, I don't think boats in the 80s were $20,000. A 1993 Prostar 190 might have been $20,000. The list price on a 2000 Prostar 205 was $35,000.

[ntx]

@ToddL Paid 12,500 for 1980 limited editon MasterCraft Power slot. Top of the line boat at the time. Wish I still had that one. Sold it in 1998 for 8500

[acmx]

@oldjeep I don't see the relationship between the prices of Wakeboard boats and the state of the Promo program. I'm sure Porsche sells everything they build too....

[jdarwin]

My 1996 SN promo was $19000 including trailer. Average price of new car in 1996: $16300. 2016 - $33580. about 2x. Using that logic, a promo SN should be about $40,000. Promo price is closer to $70k.

[ToddL]

@MISkier, @jdarwin @ntx - OK. hence, the "?" So, maybe the prices of boats have outpaced cars... $20k in 1990 would suggest about $40k in 2013 would be the boat equivalent based upon car prices. Hmmm.

 

@oldjeep - the point is that the price of the boats may not be rising higher than the price of cars are rising. In fact, it may be rising at a slower pace/slope than cars. Thus, I am contemplating: is the price of a new boat too high? Maybe, maybe not.

 

Back to my first post, the issue with the promo program isn't that the boat prices are too high. The issue with the promo program is the promo purchase price is too high compared to the used market price and demand. Thus, the risk is too high for the promo owner of not being able to resale at an acceptable price. If these two were more in line with each other, then the promo owners would still be line up for boats.

 

@brettmainer pointed out another facet of the context of the market for boats... The used boats still perform quite well. About the only hiccup is the desire for ZO controlled boats. Once the used market is flooded with ZO boats at a depreciated price that matches the market demand price, then new sales will lag. This would further challenge the promo ownership model.

 

 

[oldjeep]

@ToddL - sorry, the "what was the point" was directed at the guy who said I was missing the point ;)

[skiboat38]

@Ilivetoski .... Interesting perspective you have there… Please tell me about the boat you have bought

[ToddL]

@oldjeep - But it was good, too. Made me take a second look and think a bit more. LOL!

[ToddL]

@Jody_Seal (I also support the first pool option (align to IWWF and allow any prior year approved boat with current speed control.)

[markchilcutt]

I looked into becoming the MC promo guy in Utah in 2014 and walked away saying no way not even worth the financial risk on my end. We currently have a Nautique promo in Utah and that is it. Seems like the promo programs are dying just like the sport is.

[jdarwin]

@markchilcutt - I disagree that the sport is "dying" but one of the factors in its decline has been the governing body's (USAWS) inability to change in the face of economic realities. Tournament skiing is shrinking. It certainly will die a slow death if we don't adapt to our currrnet environment.

[Razorskier1]

I know they won't do it, but what if the manufacturers leased the boats to the promo guys for the season, then took them back through the dealer network and have them sell the boats? I agree that there is no way I'd be in the program if I am signing up for a $60-70k boat every one-two years followed by a loss on the sale.

[storm34]

What happened to making the promo boats more desirable or special when compared to what the used market has to offer? Seems the only thing setting the promo boats apart is a sticker in the window or graphic on the platform.

 

How about allowing full colored deck (Nautique) or special color options not available to the general public? Maybe price breaks on upgrades for the promo owners to give them some leverage against the market. Not sure what is currently negotiated with each brand but give the owners a little freedom to make their boats stand out.

 

My 44 year old, bright orange Correct Craft promo boat is now one of the most desirable boats to Correct Craft enthusiasts. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "never seen one like that before" from the general public at fuel stations and local lakes/rivers. The fact that it's something you couldn't order from a dealer and there were only 15-20 made (educated guess) makes them unique.

 

How do we get back to that point?

 

[Moskier3ev]

As a promo owner we are going to have to recoup some of the cost. 2 weekends 25 hours on my 15 CP. A lot of us are eating $2500 to $3000 per year. I have my 15 6ltr with 440 hours on it for 39k negotiable. (Just had a full service)The lack of boats is going to effect all of us in raised entry's. Last weekend 2 current promos and 1 aged out promo. (I hope when it sells he stays in or there will just be CC and CP) in Austin. MC occasionally has a boat here from Houston. Donny C has let his 15 MC be used, but it got 14 hours on it at a tourney. He is not a promo. Just supporting the game. I don't know the answer... but we need to help sell or local promo boats. So the crazy ones that put 50 to 70k out there and let us play with their boats keep doing it.

[rodltg2]

At this price one would think more people would jump on a Gekko. I guess most rather buy a 6-7 year old Nautique instead. I know this boat is not approved so can't pull events. Too bad they charge so much keeping small companies out

 

[Alvin_Neff]

I was a Promo Boat owner from 1987-2014 (Twenty-Seven years of service). I proudly represented the manufacturer at tournaments, worked boat shows, and even helped to sell several boats over the years. This was a benefit and huge marketing service to the manufacturer, with no financial gain on my part. I mostly lost about 2,000-5,000/year on each boat sale. I always thought it was my way of giving back to the sport that I loved so much. I retired from the program after it became clear to me that the promo program was not going to improve. I was asked to do more and more every year, some tournaments were 22 hour journeys (11 hour round trip). The credits were never enough to pay for the gas, let alone the hotel expense. The promo price is not competitive. (Many were able to buy new boats from dealers for the same or even less than my asking price of the used promo boat.) I will continue to be a loyal boat owner and promote their products, but the program is not working, and is on the decline. I feel sorry for those of you that are dealing with these issues: It took me 27 years to finally decide that this was too much of a financial hardship with very little appreciation. I purchased 28 boats from this company over the years, gave a lot back to our sport, and would still be in the program today, if it had improved. It is past time for the manufacturers and dealers to make serious changes to the programs so they can rebuild their teams. I understand that this is a small part of their market and maybe it is already too late!

[dbutcher]

I would like to hear from people on this site who ski IWWF tournaments in countries other than the United States. Are many tournaments in these countries pulled by older boats? If so, do older boats cause problems that newer ones might not? Is more than one speed control system used in the same tournament? If so, do skiers dislike that? Would skiers rather ski behind a new boat or does it matter? If we want to ski behind newer boats, are we willing to pay for it? That's what it's coming to. I think the whole issue is caused by declining numbers of 3 event skiers. If we could solve that, the boat companies' support would come back. I for one am grateful for the support the boat companies have provided in the past.

 

I am sure that I don't want to ski behind one speed control in one round and a different one in the next.

[Ilivetoski]

@skiboat38 what about it? Name a company that has a significant portion of their cash flow come from ski boat sales. You can't. Don't get me wrong, say they make 5% of sales from ski boats, they don't want to just do away with that, it's profit. i don't think I get what you're point is (or maybe you don't get mine), my perspective is (in terms of new boat sales which is where this thread has gone) that Nautique Malibu and MC are going to price themselves out of what niche market there is. Centurion is doing a little better but a new promo is now asking $50K but I'm not sure what they actually go for

[BraceMaker]

What % of new ski boats do you think are sold to skiers who have any tournament participation?

 

Also we toss around current speed control. That just = zero off. Unless there is some global player? See no reason a GR should be towable on stargazer.

[skiboat38]

@Ilivetoski My perspective little Nikki is I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from..... Tell me a specific numbers of boats that manufactures build and what their profit margins are ......I asked you to tell me about the boat you have bought.....I'm on number 28....I find it interesting that someone has never bought a ski or paid their own entry fee has so much information on boats

[ALPJr]

@rodltg2 that Gekko should be approved along with the GTS 20.

[LeonL]

First of all here in KY we've been blessed over the years with good promo people and always have a boat or boats available. In today's environment I don't know how long that can or will last. I think that the mfg and dealers should be more supportive the promo program. Like someone said either provide a lease plan or lower the price so that the promo guy is guaranteed a sale that doesn't dig into his pocket. This may be naivety on my part, but I find it hard to believe that boat mfg can't sell promo boats a lot cheaper and still break even. They don't need to profit on a promo arrangement. What with the outlay of capital, insurance, towing to events the financial burden doesn't make the proposition very appealing to most people. As a long time LOC I'm very grateful for the support of promo people. I've heard horror stories of dealers relationships with promo guys, as if they're competitors with the dealer. They should be partners in support of the brand but most dealers could give a rip about promos guys; Act like they're a nuisance in a lot of cases.

Bottom line....tournament skiing is in decline.....the promo program is in decline.....maybe all because of financial reasons. USAWS and the boat mfg do need to come to a position that benefits the sport and dollars are,the problem and the answer.

[Kelvin]

Way back when, the manufacturers were owned by families that had a deep connection to skiing that cared about the sport. Now, all of the manufacturers are public companies or owned by private equity firms. In both cases, they only care about bottom line profits. Its getting tough for the promo guys and the LOCs.