Current Promo Boat Rules

[ALPJr]

I'm all for allowing 91 to 97 MC 190's and 90 to 99 CC SN's with any speed control in Class C and below.

[skiboat38]

Promo team members continue to drop and will continue to do so if things don't change. Support is non existent, if you have a problem you have to call one of the old school former employees to get anything done. Funny how when you tell them what a problem is the first thing they say is "we have not heard of that happening before", You need to call your dealer (when you know of several).....Do the dealers support us...no...do I blame them...no...they want to sell new a boat, that's food on their table. I went over 12 years without advertising a boat and had buyers lined up 3 years out, since 2010 I have wondered each year if this is my last one, now I load them out in case I end up keeping it. I don't make a dime off the boats as I sell them for exactly what I have in them and have made up my mind I will not lose to have a new boat or travel to a tournament that will get deep in my pocket. The market seems to change year to year. I could have sold last years boat 10 times over, this year I have the same colors and one of the better ones I have had but just had the same old tire kickers looking to tell me what my boat is worth. As a promo I do appreciate the sites that do try to take care of us and think long and hard about going to the ones that don't. It makes me laugh when I see people at tournaments say what the promo guys should and shouldn't do when they have never walked in their shoes....and they always seem to be the guys who show up, ski, and leave!

[unksskis]

@skiboat38 Thank you, and I always feel the same. We are lucky to even have people willing to put their dime down so boats can pull tournaments. The entire premise of this poll needs to be taken into question, and realize nobody owes anyone else anything. The boat companies don't owe anyone a promo program, and promo programs shouldn't decide tournament opportunities. We need to figure out how to make having a boat at tournaments more attractive and beneficial for boat companies, and vice versa, tournaments can be able to use any boat they please. These days less boats are going to tournaments, putting more hours on the boats that do, increasing the likelihood of those boats not returning next year, and then we wonder why tournament volumes have decreased, and backyard tournaments become more frequent. From a marketing perspective, having special run Promo boats, or exclusive options on promo's, seems to be the option of the future. Similar to the old MC Sammy Duvall edition, special colorways, features or options would help increase Promo desirability, value and resale. Current promo programs are a hit on everyone involved, and it will not survive in that manner.

[oldjeep]

Just for information sake - how does the price that promo guys get compare to a well negotiated price at the beginning or end of season. The one former promo guy I know never made it seem like it was all that great a deal price wise, and some of the promo boats (that actually show a price) I see for sale on Ski-it-again are pretty close to the asking price of a brand new leftover.

[jdarwin]

@unksskis "The boat companies don't owe anyone a promo program" Not true. By stacking the deck (via the rulebook) that current year boats are REQUIRED, they do have some culpability in providing a vibrant promo program. If, as you say they don't owe us a promo program, then eliminate the current year rule in the AWSA rulebook - problem solved.

[unksskis]

@jdarwin I agree, but how much of that is really on the boat companies, or just AWSA? As has been stated, I'm not sure the boat companies find it all that beneficial, at least in the current scenario. Seems to me more like the organization sticking with the old ways of things, and the thought that this keeps things innovating, moving, and dispersing boats throughout the tournament scene, which is not true today at all.

 

I agree, get rid of any requirement of boats for tournaments. If people don't like it, they don't have to ski or attend the tournament. It was frustrating that the only time I was able to ski behind a Mastercraft this year was at Regionals and Nationals, so we're already not getting to train behind what we ski behind in the big shows. I realize we need the boat companies a lot more than they need us right now, so I'm still just thankful to have something to pull me.

[unksskis]

@oldjeep that is why promo and dealer relationships have dissolved over the past years, they end up competing with each other, and the manufacturer won't help either of them. The Promo person get's a "discount" because they take the boat to tournaments, likely local and regional, promoting, demoing, and overall marketing the brand of boat. The dealer see's this as doing little to no marketing for them specifically, let alone selling boats, and is already stuck with the 3 ski boats the manufacturer required them to order, and they have to place next years order too. So come Fall, promo is trying to unload last years model so that they can place, or have already ordered, their next year's boat. So dealer has 3, promo guy 1, and the manufacturer is still selling them boats, and getting all that marketing giving a boat at "discount" got them. Eventually the promo and dealer relationship goes sour, and the manufacturer is obviously going to support their dealer, and the tournament scene just lost another boat they had relied on being able to use. No one wins in the current system.

[Marco]

As @Razorskier1 suggested, getting the dealers involved in participating is not out of the question. Tommy's Slalom Shop in Denver teamed with Malibu to provide a promo, and a local Open skier volunteered to do all the footwork. He has not only pulled the Malibu all over Colorado every weekend (including a 5 hour trip over the Rockies to pull our tournament in Montrose), but has also organized and pulled a mid week recreational series that is handicapped, and includes a head to head final, including cash prizes. Tommy's has committed to take the boat back and sell it at the end of the year, and has committed to a boat for next year. Without the help from Tommy's, Malibu, and Bryan Reinke, tournament skiing in Western Colorado would have been a thing of the past.

[jdarwin]

"how much of that is really on the boat companies, or just AWSA? " Both. When AWSA submitted a rules proposal a few years ago to add a 3rd year to approved boats (Class C and under), the Big 3 were at HQ immediately complaining. They do not want the rule to be expanded or eliminated.

 

As for Tommy's support of 3-event skiing, I applaud their efforts. Unfortunately, they are the minority. I made the comment at an AWSA board meeting 10 years ago that the day was coming when sites would have to supply their own boats to host tournaments. For some, that day has come.

[6balls]

Dealer who now gets 3 new boats gets two new and one for promo. Promo skier/driver leases it for the time they have it using as their own and takes it to tourneys with a custom wrap highlighting the dealer and perhaps does one stop instead of a tourney as a learn to ski/ski better day with the dealer.

[swc5150]

@6balls is spot on. The local dealer and promo should work in concert together to promote the boat, sport and brand. When I sold MC's, our dealer owner would allow some sales team members to run boats for the summer as dealer demos. One just had to cover the insurance and floor plan costs, and keep it looking new of course. Perhaps something similar would work for promo boats?

[Chef23]

What support do the boat manufacturers really give to the ASWA in exchange for the 2 year rule?

[brettmainer]

Tournament skiers cannot expect handouts from boat companies. Tournament skiers need to put more thought into where they buy their boats and ski equipment.

 

Using the Colorado example cited above, who is making it worth Tommy's and Malibu's while to continue with their support? Somebody needs to step up and buy that Malibu (this is coming from a Nautique promo team member who still has his 2016 boat for sale). Maybe they were going to wait another year, maybe they were going to try to save a few $ and get a several year old Carbon Pro or 196. Hell, maybe they are looking at buying my boat. No. Somebody in the area should buy that Malibu so it doesn't just sit at Tommy's as a reminder of why not to support tournament skiing. Tommy's support should also be remembered when buying miscellaneous equipment. Maybe you can save a few dollars on your board shorts, sunglasses, gloves, etc. by shopping online or at some massive national retailer who cares nothing about skiing. If you can afford the couple of extra dollars, buy those things at your local ski shop. Profitable dealers who see lots of tournament skiers in their showroom spending money are far more likely to support the tournament scene.

 

While I'm on the subject of people looking out for their own short term interests a tad too much, I'll relate the following story that has taken place multiple times in my 16yrs on the promo team.

 

Me: My boat has 150hrs, is in great shape and is priced at $XX,XXX

Buyer: Even though your boat looks new, that is a lot of hours. I am looking at a non promo boat that has 75hrs for the same price. I think I will get that one instead, (because those 75hrs will make a big difference 10yrs from now).

Me (thinking): How many of those hours were due to your kids skiing behind it when I donated it to JR Development for 2 days or at last weekends tournament when it got 15hrs on it because it was the only promo boat there? This is the same guy who will complain because the variety of boats at the local tournament may not match his draw at regionals.

 

When it is possible to do so, skiers who can afford the extra $ (we are not talking about the M1/W1 "crowd"), should support the promo skiers, dealers and companies that support the sport.

[skiboat38]

@brettmainer Speak it Brother!!! I'm sure you have learned the art of ending the conversation as soon as they tell you about the other boat.....I talk over them with that's the boat you should buy as I'm already walking away.

[Marco]

@brettmainer You hit it on the head. Support your local dealer and they might choose to support you as well. At our tournament, we set up banners and feather flags with Malibu, Tommy's and HO logos, and set up a booth to sell HO gear from Tommy's. We even raffled off a HO V Type R. Our tournament had a Regional's like feel. An additional benefit is there was lots of Tommy's chatter on facebook, adding to the exposure Tommy's and Malibu are getting.

 

 

[gsm_peter]

Sorry for stupied question from a non competing guy.

 

In reality, is there a need to have such new boats?

Could the 50 to 200 top skiers perform equally on a 10 year old greay boat?

 

Does the rest of the world have similar requirements on new boats for records?

[unksskis]

Speed control and engines innovate so rapidly, it's like computers, but a lot more expensive.

[RazorRoss3]

@gsm_peter, 10 years old I'd say no, 5 years old, I'd say yes for the majority of tournament skiers. I wouldn't complain about a 2011 anything.

[jdarwin]

@gsm_peter - 2008 to today, the boats are similar. Zero off speed control and 330-350hp engines. Most wouldn't know the difference. I train behind a 2007 196 w/ ZO and don't notice much difference when I get to tournaments. As for the rest of the world, the current rule doesn't exist. I could use my 2007 to pull a record event without exception anywhere else in the world.

[bgturf]

A lot of the cost increases come from the demands of the skiers. Then the technology has increased greatly. The skiers that are trying to up grade are wanting new graphics in the boat. It costs a manufacturer 200 K plus to do that and spread that cost over 75 to 100 boats per year with a 5 year life span it is hard to justify to Corperate bean counters for a return on investment. The other thing is they are building them to last longer so skiers don't feel the need to go buy a new boat because the old one is working just fine.

Yes it is frustrating sometimes being a promo person. But with a lot of years doing it you have to understand the industry.

[Horton]

I am sure this idea has been floated before but let me say it again. I say we scrap the current model and change skiers $10 extra for every tournament round and give that to the boat owner.

 

If a boat pulls 5 or 6 tournament on a year it would get about 75-100 hours in a year and make $6,000. Over 3 years (rounding up) that is 300 hours and $20K. If the boat companies will sell these boats to the Promo guys at wholesale I think they can keep the boats for years and come out ahead.

 

[Jody_Seal]

@gsm_peter

 

Answer to your question about the rest of the world and tow boat utilization. The answer is yes for the most part many other countries utilize AWSA/USAWS towboat standards and tournament Criteria. There are though federations that just do not have the latest boat's and utilize what they have. In the last 5 years or so though I have not heard of any Perfect Pass tournament's so most every thing is ZO with either the current boat rules or older and converted boats.

 

The towboat situation is not as bad as some would read into this. There are area's where promo's of any kind are real thin or are none. AWSA has taken a stance that tournament's will not be declined due to not having current towboat's.

The Reminder is we do have a rule book and the bottom line is if a boat can provide consistent service under the tournament rules then so be it use it, provided that the current model is unavailable and a exception is granted. So Joe If ya gotta use the 07 then bring it on!!

 

This situation is not going away and the AWSA and tow boat manufacturer's are addressing it. Some new tournament guidelines are being presented and hopefully will help both Promo's and LOC's and skier's as whole.

 

 

[MillerTime38]

For Class C tournaments I think you should be able to use any tournament boat that has cruise control and adjust the tolerance closer to actual. For records they should allow any boat that has the current speed control to pull the event. This may help attract more skiers to class C events that currently ski behind perfect pass and will put less burden on the host to bring in "approved" boats to pull tournaments.

[escmanaze]

It seems a little odd that the dealer program and the "demo" / promo program are separate. I have to admit, I would be mad if I was a dealer as well. It seems like the answer is to do more like I see with bikes, snowmobiles, etc. and that is to tell the dealer that he is the promo guy too. If he does a good job at it, great, he will sell some boats. If he doesn't do it well or at all, well then, he will probably sell fewer ski boats. That simple. If all the dealers in your area suck, you either discontinue your tournament, get an exception, or provide your own boat. I have to imagine if the folks at AWSA start to see a bunch of tournaments getting canceled for lack of a towboat, that might suddenly talk louder than the big 3 knocking at their door asking them not to add a 3rd year in.

[gsm_peter]

@Jody_Seal

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I do not vote since I am not entitle to have an opinion in this subject.

(Anyhow, I am grateful that we do not have the promo rule in Sweden)

 

My 2 cents as a 15 off, 30/32 mph skier FWIW.

 

I prefer the wake from the 200 for slalom and the trick wake from the 196.

Have never tried PP. I can not feel any difference in the ZO settings.

Some coaches set me on B2 and others on C1.

 

[bigtex2011]

@MillerTime38 oh dear. I cant imagine going back to pp after 8 years of zo. I'm too fat and would pull the boat backwards

[dave2ball]

If you due away with the 2 or 3 year rule and allow that any boat can pull a tournament you may just abolish all promo teams. There would be nobody willing to invest in a promo boat and the factories would have no intensive to stay in 3 event skiing. Nobody with half a brain is going to hold on to a promo boat for 3 years and then take a huge loss. another question is Who is going to be willing to use there private or club boat that is 3 plus year old boat and put 8-15 hrs on it in a given weekend?

How would the regional's or nationals be held if promo boats are scarce or non existent? As it is nobody wants to hold the nationals as it is. But that is a difference thread. It may throw the ski world into chaos.

USA waterski and the skiing world should not have to pay the price because the MFG's wont back the local events with there promo boats or assist in the sales of there boats. If they are worried about sales and so forth maybe they should force the dealer to take the boat back. The MFG's have no problem taking back there team skier boats. Adding the promos into the mix would only add 1 -2 boats per dealer. All sales leads would be referred to the local dealer and they can sell the boat for what the dealer feels it is worth. The promo teams were meant to work with dealers to bring to bring sales and exposure to our sport.

A couple of people have mentioned about special colors and patterns is great but there is a stocking cost for the MFG's. the coat of changing the pattern in the mold and so forth, Some of that has already been done by MC which did set there promo boats apart from your everyday dealer boats.

I have been on a promo team for over 30 plus years and I have seen just about everything promo wise and there is always somebody who is not happy.

[MillerTime38]

@bigtex2011 sounds like you are hitting the Cheetos a little much. I would imagine you would still run your normal 2@38 :D

[bigtex2011]

@MillerTime38 haha. Im hideous. Look away

[Jdubs]

I have a promo boat for sale. It's in it's 2nd year of tournaments so I am hoping to get it sold soon so I can stay in the program. If you want the program to stay healthy / or even survive, consider supporting our sport by purchasing

a promo boat.

 

[Horton]

@Jdubs that is a good looking boat. Is it on Ski-It-Again under promo boats?

[Jdubs]

Sure is @Horton and thanks!

link

[Mrs_MS]

I agree with Chuck_Dickey ....

In the first post.

MS was promo for 10 years!

Stress

Stress

Stress

Trying to sell...

We were not in it to make money....but certainly not to lose!

PITA

We don't even have a tournament this year at our lake!

Not enough boats!

Sad....

 

[jdarwin]

Tournaments in SCR in 2007 - 89. 2016 - 65. That's $5400 less in sanction fee income. Plus $1500 less in head tax revenue for the region. Total impact of almost $7000 and that's just one region! Curious how many no longer host tournaments due to lack of boats to pull them.

[Mrs_MS]

If the boat company's helped out with selling or taking it back, we would possibly STILL be doing promo!

It just got too stressful and risky...it's a rich mans club.

After 10 years we said "that's it".... Finished off the house!

Our lake has a club boat so.....

[Kelvin]

Well, I took @jdarwin 's advice and asked for a rules exception to use my 2010 SN 200 at our slalom only tournaments this weekend as a backup. To some extent, it backfired on me. We had a promo owner back out after he found out about the rules exemption. Don't get me wrong - I was happy to use my boat for a couple of rounds at our small tournaments, but it got me to thinking.

 

If we fast forward a few years and the rules are changed and the promos are gone - where are the boats going to come from and how are we going to compensate the owners for allowing their boats to be used. For lakes with a club boat, it is a fairly easy decision, but for lakes with personal boats, its not as easy. I know I am willing to have mine used at tournaments (under the right circumstances). At other sites, will their be owners willing to use their non-promo boats in tournaments.

[disland]

@Jdubs nice boat! Wish I had the cash, hmm where did it all go, oh ya NYU, Columbia, Albany Med, Oh ya lol

[dave2ball]

Kalvin I said pretty much the same thing in an earlier post. I agree 110%. If tournament directors or clubs get rule exceptions you will not have a promo teams. One of two thing have to happen,

Skiers need to start supporting the sales of promo boats or the MFG's have to revamp the programs and assist the teams. Times have changed. There is no waiting list for ANY PROMO TEAMS anymore. When there is damage to the boat and the tournament won't pay or they get trashed and scratched and nobody takes responsibility that affects the resale of that boat and guess what when you need a promo boat and your site is known or has a reputation for not caring for promo boats you won't get a boat because the owner can't take a chance of any damage not being covered.

All the above affects the sale of promo boats.

[jdarwin]

@dave2ball - it's the "chicken or the egg" scenario. I don't WANT to get exceptions. I have no choice. There are NO PROMO BOATS available. Simple. I made numerous phone calls to no avail. If I want to host an event and no promo boats are available, I must request an exception. Simple. Also, the fall is particularly hard to get boats because the few promo members that remain try to sell their boats after Nationals. Therefore, the inventory is even fewer. So, it's not a matter of WANTING to receive an exception, it's a matter of NEEDING to request an exception. Big difference. If the requesting/granting of exceptions has a negative affect on the promo programs, that's a natural result of the lack of success on the part of manufacturers to provide their product to the marketplace.

[dave2ball]

@jdarwin I do agree that the fall is difficult to get boats. My post was for exceptions in a general term when boat are available. Early to mid season. If the promo person won't bring his boat then that should be brought up to the team coordinator.

You are right it's the chicken and the egg. I've been boing this for over 30 years and I'll just say some things never change.

[ski6jones]

Agreed @OB1, but that's not the message the boat manufacturers want to hear.

[DW]

Interesting thread, certainly several issues in ensuring enough or acceptable boats pull the tournaments and fill the needs of the tournament rules and participants. The same scenario has also played out several times in the car racing world, albeit slightly different but the recurring outcome tends to be a sanctioning body change or migration from one (example SCCA) to a different one (Brand X). As prices / rules / stress / politics escalate (a natural progression and one that becomes more egregious when sanctioning body is under threat) it opens the opportunity for an alternate option to steal market share.

 

An example is both SCCA amateur racing (in it's heyday had many classes supported by various manufacturers) and IMSA/ALMS professional racing (similar sponsorship and support story) participation has dropped dramatically due mainly to significantly increased cost of participation along with stress levels of dealing with the sanctioning body. What has taken their place, ironically, vintage racing and low cost alternate options of "run what you brung" formats that offer a much higher ROI and a high level of fun factor operating under a much lower stress format. My point is that potential certainly exists here based on a variety of threads dealing with lower tournament participation, stress level and cost of being part of the promo program, etc. Hopefully, to those that are part of the current scene and want that to continue but in a more healthy format, the vision will emerge on a solution to the various issues that can satisfy the participant, promo owner, dealership, boat manufacturer and sanctioning body.

 

As to some of the comments on "skier must do x, y or z" good luck with that. Simply telling people to do something that goes against basic human instincts of getting value for their hard earned resource tends not to be a successful strategy. If society was all good Samaritans, Wal-Mart / Home Depot, etc. would not have gutted the local vendors. Modern technology and mobility is certainly changing the landscape on doing business which directly impacts particularly the dealership network and equipment vendors.

[jdarwin]

Another point on this. An old promo friend of mine stated that in the old days, a manufacturer had to pull 60% (approx.) of the events in a region in order to pull Regionals. There is NO WAY that requirement is being met today in the SCR. Have the rules changed or has the governing body not pressed the issue?

[Jody_Seal]

@jdarwin

As per this years towboat committee meeting at nationals the numbers show that all manufacturer's are meeting quantitative requirements for eligibility to participate in all regionals and the US nationals. SCR included.

 

 

[klindy]

@jdarwin The "20% rule" still exists. "Record Capability Approved Boat models which participate in 20% or more of the traditional class C or higher tournaments held during the preceding year in a given Region are invited to pull each of those Regional Championships where it has qualified. Boat models that participate in all 5 AWSA Regional Championships and receive a positive performance report from 4 of the 5 Regions will be approved to pull the Nationals."

 

Required number of events to pull the 2016 Regional Championships - Unchanged boats

REGION Slalom Trick Jump

East 12 4 5

Midwest 17 10 10

South 22 9 8

South Central 14 5 5

West 26 9 8

 

 

Required number of events to pull the 2016 Regional Championships - New or Modified Boats

REGION Slalom Trick Jump

East 2 1 1

Midwest 4 2 2

South 10 4 4

South Central 4 2 2

West 8 3 3

 

Sorry, the formatting is terrible, but those are the numbers - slalom, trick and jump per region. A link to the entire Tow Boat Policy Manual is below.

 

Tow Boat Manual

 

[jdarwin]

@klindy - 20%? I thought it used to be higher but I could be mistaken. As long as the number of tournaments continues to decline at the same rate as available promo boats, there won't be an issue. Sad.

@Jody_Seal - thanks for the clarification.

[Kelvin]

In the early days of the Carbon Pro, many of the credits in the SCR were from collegiate tournaments. Skiers at regionals weren't happy getting the Carbon Pro that year.

[klindy]

Notice that for "New or Modified" boats the number is tournaments required in each region is exceptionally low.

[JDM]

@Horton had an interesting idea with the extra $10 a head going to the boat owner, but even that I am not sure is enough. 50 skiers = $500. That barely covers the cost of bringing the boat to the tournament with gas for the tow vehicle, lodging, food, other travel costs, wear and tear on the tow vehicle etc... Now if it is a double tournament and 50 skiers two days = $1000 maybe you are on to something.

 

These promo guys are doing us a huge favor every time they tow a boat around and we need to appreciate that more. I really like what Tommy's has done as there is an easy way to appreciate Tommy's, simply buy your vest, gloves, ropes, handles, bindings etc... from them. Hopefully it works out for them and more dealers get involved in the promo game as a result as that is a great way for this to work for everyone.

[dave2ball]

Great idea. Every region is different. For example the west will comp the promo boat owners. The south will not unless unusual surcumstances. Many people believe that since we are compensated by the factories that is good enough.