ZO and Z-Box: A-1 through C3 Settings - What do they mean?

[One_Ski]

I found this picture on the web, showing how various Zero Off settings affect how and when power is applied to maintain boat speed. Does anyone know whether these accurately represent the effects of each setting? Also (since I use a Z-Box), do these settings on a Z-Box do the same thing as the identical setting on Zero Off?

 

 

[BraceMaker]

It's accurate from the perspective of there not being any scale and as such there is no real meaning or claimed accuracy.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker I spend all week telling the Ballers to stop being sarcastic and then you manage to be sarcastic and funny. You win.

 

@oneski those graphs do not look anything like the official ZO graphs I have seen. I'm not saying they're wrong but they don't make any sense to me

[MJE]

This pic helped me to visualize the various Zero Off settings

 

[Horton]

@MJE I believe that is the official document

[6balls]

@scoke had a set of diagrams that mirrored the actual but was a bit more readable and understandable.

[BraceMaker]

@Horton Might want to turn on review for me. :Sad panda

 

Would be interesting to pull down engine data and overlay to skier video along with the various available settings to get user data.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker My mistake - my poor use of the english language. I was saying your post was really actually funny - not a bad thing. We are cool.

[Orlando76]

I think in theory ZO and Zbox are supposed to pull the same but in reality results vary GREATLY. Idk, never skied Zbox.

 

While we're on the topic, what exactly does the ZO "+" do? Most of my skiing is w PP classic and on my pullout it launches me as the boat comes in hot to the course. Not bad, I learned how to use it to my advantage. Ski behind my buddies ZO which doesn't have "+" and can't get a good one ball to save my life.

[paco]

Neither of the charts make sense to me. I'm also curious of understanding this subject. I ski behind both systems and find them very similar in the event of good driving with the zbox. I've tried explaining to my drivers a couple times to not move the throttle!

 

What I think I understand of the number/letters is.... ABC determine which location at the bouy the pull begins and 123 is how fast the engine revs or how hard pull is. The "+" is just a little added firmness to the pull. Kinda in between numbers....

 

I may be way off base, but I this is the sense I've made of it. Would love to hear how close I am!

[paco]

For anyone that might know, what is the best setting for learning? I have always used B1 on both systems. I am now working on 34mph. I know this setting is a personal preference thing, but wonder if one or the other is more forgiving for a low level skier?

[LeonL]

@Gloersen that's funny in and of itself. "Understand Kd gains and clipping". If someone does please share! @paco to over simplify, letters determine when throttle is applied in response to skier's load on the line. Numbers determine how much throttle is applied and for how long. In a chart you must have an equal area above the line (see above) in all settings in order for the time to be the same, no matter the shape. Hope that helps. Plus is faster at the gate and a bit firmer all the way through.

[MISkier]

This is my understanding of the two ends of the spectrum of settings (below). All of the other settings in between are variations of this range. Increasing the letter will reduce how long the boat will wait for you to hookup and/or apoly load before ot reats and works to counteract the loss in boat speed. Increasing the number will increase how much power the boat applies to you when it does react to your pull. The combination of these affect how long the boat needs to apply power to compensate for your load and return the boat speed to the proper amount.

 

A1 - Wait for me to hookup out of the buoy as long as possible and apply a small initial, but increasing intensity, amount of throttle to allow me to pull later and longer into the next buoy.

 

C3 - I want the boat to react to my hookup as soon as possible and apply a large initial, but decreasing intensity, amount of throttle to allow me to get all of my pull done early and be free of the boat into the next buoy as soon as possible.

[Gloersen]

"Clipping Values" determine the system tolerances above and below baseline speed; 1 is the tightest tolerance (least delta speed), 3 is the most tolerant (greater delta). The system only responds when out of tolerance.

 

"Kd Gains" determine how the system responds when tolerances are exceeded (either above or below tolerated deviations from baseline speed).

 

Most of the explanations put forth in online forums regarding what the letter and number actions imply have been inaccurate.

 

The chart is accurate and thus best to focus on what those parameters actually impart.

 

Otherwise, just ski a setting that gives the best results.

[Than_Bogan]

@Gloersen Did you just tell me that letters and numbers are exactly the opposite of everything I've ever been told before? Your explanation seems to say that the number controls the when and the letter controls the how much.

And you seem to be stating that 3 allows the largest speed variation.

If all of that is true, then my understanding of how boat dynamics relate to what I feel is not even close to correct!

[Lieutenant Dan]

@Than_Bogan I think @Gloersen has got it. The "letter" determines "lag" time (I'm defining lag as the amount of time before ZO reacts to the pull of the skier). The higher the letter, the lower the lag time. The number determines the "intensity" of the reaction. The higher the number the quicker or more intense the reaction (and also the lower the overall duration).

[rfa]

My quick read of @Gloersen chart/explanation is similar to @Than as well. Not worried about understanding how boat dynamics relate to how i feel (that's above my ski pay grade...), but if this is correct then it is not consistent with the graphic shown by @MJE (where the "when" is triggered by the letter not the number...)...or am I just totally confused?

[Drago]

C1 is an early long, slow drag

A3 is a late,short, quick burst

....and every thing in between

+ gives you that over-speed gate ( go in hot and let you pull it down) just like pp. I don't miss the days of pp

[MJE]

This is another version of @Gloerson chart with a little more explanation. To me this reads that A, B, and C determines when ZO responds to pull from the skier and 1, 2, and 3 determines how throttle is applied at that response time . A responds the slowest and C responds the fastest.

 

[Horton]

I think if you guys will just focus on the second graph from the top of this page it will be less confusing.

 

Letters are delay & numbers are throttle response rates.

 

Basically on C the ZO responds faster so the skier has the least time to pull the boat down. Theoretically the ZO gives the least additional gas on C because the skier has had the least time to slow the boat. Since the gas comes on early it also drops off early.

 

The downside is that if you are attempting to hook up later and carve farther into the course the ZO may pick you up before you want.

 

On A it is basically the opposite. The gas comes on as late as possible so the skier can carve in as far as possible before the boat picks them up. This sounds good but if the skier loads too much too early the boat will slow down a lot and the ZO will have to add more to catch up.

 

B is a happy medium between A & C.

 

Numbers are the rate of increase and decrease of throttle. On 1 the gas comes on progressively and drops off fast. On 3 the gas comes on fast and drops off slow. On 2 the rate of increase and decrease is more symmetrical.

 

B2 is the middle of all the settings and is the setting with the shortest duration of throttle. If you are not running 32 off or shorter i suggest you go B2 and forget it.

[Horton]

@Gloersen you are an engineer or just a geek?

"system within tolerance of the gforce parameters"

 

 

[DanE]

According to Will Bush presentation of ZO any + setting will respond faster than all otther settings, i.e A+ will respond faster than C.

[MISkier]

@Gloersen,

 

I believe the original ZO version was P101.

[DanE]

Why does it have to be so confusing getting ZO settings explained? @Gloersen you seem to have a good grasp of what's going on, sources on your info? Not exactly the same as WB explained but then again, maybe it is just with different data?

Is there an official explanation what different letters and numbers do or is that asking too much?

[CParrish43]

Really feel like the size of the skier meaning height and weight and what kind of line they run through the turn and also how they wanna be picked up by the skier. In a lot of my coaching clinics what common fix I see is there on the wrong letter , I can actually tell by not even knowing there letter because of lack of support at the finish of the turn. Once they go up a letter or two they just got there money's worth right there. I highly recommend not using + until some bugs get fixed on that.

 

Tower

[jeidmann]

I'm curious, how do the number settings correlate to "where" in the pull the RPM increase begins/subsides. Especially subsides - before the wake? at the wake? at the second trough?

[ScottScott]

I don't know that that info exists. Maybe some can tell you by feel. It will begin pretty much at hook up with small variations, maybe getting toward the 1st whitewash with A. "Subsides" is all about making up for speed lost so it averages correctly. The sooner it picks you up © and the faster it corrects (3) then the sooner it can subside. A1 takes the longest. Both charts at top of thread show that pretty well. Maybe the 2nd shows that relationship best. End of blue line would be the return of "normal" throttle. Longest probably goes on outside the whitewash, can't say for earliest.....maybe centerline? Might be best to tell by listening to engine while watching someone ski. It will depend on the skier too.

[LeonL]

@jeidmann See the chart above (second one, posted by @MJE) Numbers do not relate to "where", but how much and how long. Letters determine where (or when).

[jeidmann]

@ScottScott and @LeonL, when I mention "where" I'm referring to the geographical location in the course. I recognize this is likely impossible to determine because it's actually dependent on "when" the skier applies an opposing force against the boat and the boat simply reacts is a scheduled manner. YMMV depending on many factors.

I suppose, for me, it might be most useful to know the pro athlete's ZO settings, and then perhaps start with a setting based on the athlete I am closest in physiology and skiing style.

[ScottScott]

@jeidmann Yeah, I got that... And yes, I think thats going to be tough to determine. As mentioned, maybe the best way is while watching a skier, listen to the engine. TWBC was showing ZO settings for each skier in their latest broadcasts, including swiss. Most were A, I can't remember if more were 1,2 or 3. Another variable I recently thought of is line length. With a longer line the skier connects pretty tight out of the ball, causing the boat to slow down closer to coming off the ball, it will recover and complete its compensation sooner and release sooner. Where a short line doesn't really load until the boat has advanced and the skier has moved more toward center line so the whole process is later. I think the best thing to do is experiment with different settings and go with what feels better, and you feel you ski better. I'm not consistent enough to feel like I can really determine how an external factor is effecting my skiing right now, so I just stick with B2.

[jeidmann]

@ScottScott Yes! I was thinking the same thing...a shoreline skier will tend to run the course taking a "lower" line in the course so turn/load is delayed.

I've been skiing B2 myself for years. Paradoxically, with the A settings, I tend to over turn and the rope feels softer causing too much lean. I've been considering trying the C settings (1/2) to see what that feels like. Mechler is the athlete I am physiologically closest to and I like his skiing style, but at least at the Swiss, they didn't show his ZO setting.

 

[markn]

Always viewed a,b,c as WHERE the boat picked you up and 1,2,3 was the amount of skier resistance required to initiate that pickup.

[ScottScott]

@jeidmann In case you haven't seen any yet.....the lake 38 webcast is showing ZO settings as they did with swiss. I believe I saw Mechler is on B1.

 

I've been playing with a couple settings, not a high end skier by any stretch of imagination.....but enough experience now that I can feel a difference. With the A settings, it does allow the boat to slow a little more (which can make the rope feel soft) but maybe what A does that a lot of people like is in its correction after the speed loss, it gives you a little extra cross coarse sling, then for shortline skiers it continues to pull you up higher on the boat after edge change. In theory I like the idea of the C settings so I gave that a try. On C3.... I pulled out for 1st pass, and there was no glide....I waited for gates and had sunk in so much for my turn-in the ski stalled and I went OFT. Next pass I managed the gate, but felt way too slow going into the balls through the rest of the course and could hardly turn. Maybe staying with the C settings and delaying edge change might work ok....? I seemed to do pretty well with A2, and have tried some B3 that did ok. Probably will try some A3 and B1 for fun. B3 may be a good compromise between getting a little sling out of hookup, but getting off the pull to help slow down into the turn.

[BS74]

All women but 2 were A2.vanessa and Manon were B2. Dane, Cole and Travers are B3. Bergman B2, statbauer A1 all rest A2. Please forgive the spelling,on cell phone

[ScottScott]

Yep, I was wrong. Mechler is B3.

[ScottScott]

Well....maybe I wasn't wrong.....Mechler ran B3 earlier, but this round they have him on B1

[GaryJanzig]

I normally ski on B2. The lake I ski on has 10-20 feet deep water where the course is so the water will feel faster. I am a heavier skier. A couple seasons ago I started running into trouble with stalling my ski while finishing my onside turn(ball 1,3,5) at tournaments. I started trying C2 on lakes where the water felt slow and it helped me solve the stalling. I also changed my fin settings.

[jeidmann]

@GaryJanzig curious, are LFF? What was the change you made to your fin settings and why?

[GaryJanzig]

I move the fin forward to raise the tip of the ski on my onside, and shorten the length of the fin to raise the tip on my offside. It reduces the amount of contact the ski has with the water. In generic terms as the water gets warmer, move the fin forward to keep the tip up so it won't stall when finishing the turn. The ski rides slightly deeper in the water when it gets warmer so I want to reduce the amount of contact the ski has with the water. As the water gets colder move the fin back to give the ski more contact to make it easier to slow the ski down for the turns. When I got into 28 off and shorter on warm water I was stalling the ski at the end of the turn right before the acceleration starts. I make the adjustment so the ski will slide around easier as the water gets warmer. I also change the boat to C2 in warmer water so the boat responds to my load quicker. I practice on a lake where the course is in 15-22 feet of water, and most of the tournament lakes I ski on around 6 feet deep, so everything rides deeper in the water. I have to make adjustments for that. Since I am left foot forward I sometimes have to stomp on my onside turns to make up time, but I risk stalling the ski at the finish of the turn. You have to be very patient to allow the ski to finish the turn on a zero off boat. If you try to hook your turns, zero off will kick your butt.