Is there a Zero Off Easter egg?

[Horton]

@CParrish43 called me to day.

He calls me a lot for coaching since he switched to RFF and double kickers(*).

 

We got to talking about Trick mode and he is all fired up about it. He told me that some big name skiers who he skis with are also very interested. If you were wondering if the sports elite were looking at Trick mode I would say there is no question about it.

 

(*)This one sentence is 100% untrue.

[The_MS]

@CParrish43 You need to take over for the GOAT and strong arm ZO into a new improved skier friendly system.

[Gar]

Yes we need all the help we can get!

[CParrish43]

Ha ha @Horton thanks for the coaching and getting me through 38off RFF with double kickers lol great chatting with you yesterday and yes trick mode is gonna be the new ZO very soon guys. @Gar and @MS I'm already pushing this thing and got people involved to get of this moving forward. Getting great responses from other pros as well. This is gonna be so great for our sport, I can't wait.

[Gloersen]

Cool!

[Milford]

Ok, 2017 just got a lot more interesting! Can't wait to have this as an option at the next tournament. Our club just ordered a new 2017 Malibu TXi, so with that and trick mode as a real option, the ice can't come off the lake fast enough. Can't wait to take that dog for a walk without the choke caller on.

[Than_Bogan]

@Gloersen, I just realized the RPM boundaries were higher on BOTH ends for trick mode. That is super-interesting. Since both get the proper time at the end, I have to think the average RPM is extremely similar, which I think is only possible if Trick Mode spends relatively more time near the bottom of its range and only spikes briefly.

 

And perhaps this finally begins to make a little sense to me. By having a higher "base" RPM, and being willing to spike hard-but-short to maintain the speed, it can actually spend most of its time at a nearly constant RPM -- just like PP! -- while still doing a better job than PP of keeping the speed in a narrow range.

 

I wonder if I'm starting to "get it," or if I'll look back on this post in a few months and think I was a total dufus?

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan Here is all you need to know.

 

I am under the impression that folks who actually understand it are going to take a second look at the difference between Trick mode and the current Slalom mode. There are something like 5 parameters that can be logically tweaked. As I understand the difference that everyone feels is only a change on one of those 5.

 

There seems to be a lot of interest so I have to assume there will be testing in the spring. Skiers who load the boat more should feel the biggest difference.

 

If the ZO team think the new parameters are better - the changes are actually very simple. It is only few tweaks to the next software version.

 

The current trick mode is not really the future. It is the lessons learned from Trick mode that may be applied to Slalom mode. Those of you who are worried about perfect times or speed that the gate are missing the point. None of that matters because it is all handled by the current Slalom mode.

 

[CParrish43]

Well said @Horton , also for all of those who use the current settings they will 100% still be available to you , and those who like the parameters of trick mode until we actually have a setting or a name for this maybe it will be in the plus section of the speed control.

[CParrish43]

@Gloersen just read your speed swing difference in revs, and your absolutely correct and because of that and I've talked about this in some of my earlier post , because of that the skiers end result is way better because of less line tension from the speed control and the boat it's not on you as long so you're free from the boat and the speed swing that your able to achieve is much greater. When that happens you have less down course speed at the bouy and you run a much earlier line. We all know what happens when we are early. We calm down , don't panic and build confidence and run a lot of bouys.

[Adam Caldwell]

@CParris43 Thanks for being a voice and helping to get the train rolling on innovation, testing and pushing boundaries.

 

Is any one else wondering .....how did we end up here? Im struggling to think that the original ZO team would miss something as simple as this.

[The_MS]

@adamhcaldwell I am not sure they did miss it. Speaking to Sussi, TMo and a few other skiers that were on site for lots of testing when ZO was being created, they said there was a setting that everyone loved. Sounds like everyone loved it except the GOAT so it never made the cut.

[ahopkinsTXi]

So I have been reading this from the start, but now I have a question as things sound like it may change.

 

It sounds like a change will be able to be made to all systems? Just asking because I don't even have r revision installed. And if this is as good as everyone says then I want in on the goods and I am sure everyone else will too!

[Hugh Nichols]

Would like to go by the factory ask them face to face. their address is about 5 miles from where I work.

[bishop8950]

This may not be on Econtrols radar yet. There are skiers playing with trick mode and a handful of reprogrammed head units out there getting feedback. I am pumped because it is being looked at and would be simple to implement. I would expect it won't be till spring before we really know how this will turn out but I am optimistic and excited

[Milford]

@ahopkinsTXi - any ZO equipped boat would be able to upload the updated software. Shouldn't matter if you are running a duel puck or single puck system. As soon as it is approved and released, it should be a very simple update. A special cable is required to connect a laptop to the ZO head unit, but any dealer should have one on hand.

[MISkier]

@ahopkinsTXi, I had my boat updated at Skiers Pier (to rev R) a couple years ago. I think I paid $45 for that.

[ahopkinsTXi]

@Milford and @MISkier thanks for the quick responses. I figured SP could do it, just haven't asked yet.

[DW]

Great data presented from speedo video, nice work. I wonder what the sampling rate is for the speedo display and if it samples enough data for this analysis (not condemning the efforts or the data collection done by @Gloersen & @scoke) or actually how much more accurate would the observations be. My personal observations pulling a heavier skier pretty much matches what is noted (all in slalom mode since I had no insight at the time to try an alternate mode, so congrats to those that considered trying something out of the box and improving the mousetrap).

 

I also find it interesting that the course entry speed in slalom mode is +.7 mph to target speed and much closer to target in trick mode (not surprising), seems to me that slalom mode imitates the PP skier weight input raising the speed to ensure a good time.

 

To @adamhcaldwell commenting on how did we get here (reminds me of the Talking Heads song BTW), perhaps the software writer simply did not understand the needs of the skiers, not really surprising as it happens all the time in industry & the communication between the user and calibrator was not 100%. Development time and experimentation end up being the process that unlocks the best answer.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@DW "perhaps the software writer simply did not understanding the needs of the skiers" I'll bet a paycheck or 2 that is the root cause.

Accuski was the only speed control actually developed by a real shortline skier in cooperation with top notch drivers. Both PP and ZO algorithms were written by non-skiers who would try to solicit feedback from a handful of skiers, but really didn't understand what it was like.

[jcamp]

PerfectPass was started by Eric Horton, who was very involved in tournament skiing in Canada and had two kids who were both very good junior skiers.

[Horton]

No relation

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@jcamp being involved in tournament skiing and having kids who are very good juniors is a far cry from being a shortline skier with a thorough understanding of how the boat affects the skier on the end of the rope.

 

No offense. I stand by my comment.

[jcamp]

@Bruce_Butterfield you wrote "Both PP and ZO algorithms were written by non-skiers" and that is simply not true in PerfectPass' case.

 

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield without throwing anyone under the bus I am pretty sure that the ZO programing was very much driven by elite skiers. One theory ( speculation ) is that we got the current ZO programing because the sound of the boat freaked everyone out. You may recall the ZO came out about the same time as the all black and loud has heck MC 197TT boat.

[The_MS]

It was driven by the GOAT

[Gloersen]

@ThanBogan – I think your comments about the rpm spread are logically accurate.

 

@Horton – heard something similar about the sound of higher revs having negative impact on the final selection.

 

@DW - the gate speed closer to baseline, once acclimated, feels better imo. There also is NO notable catch-up throttle (e.g., like when PPSG parameters were not ideal). Basically squeeze the trigger and reap the results.

 

@BruceButterfield – trying to get a former Accuski developer to try trick mode slalom, he’s hesitant, maybe when it gets warmer. One must wonder how many engineers at Enovation Controls exist that are capable of modifying/improving the ZO choices and offer a firmware upgrade, let alone any that are in-tune with slalom skiing. Also not sure how motivated EC is unless the firmware upgrade generated a little profit.

 

@CParrish43 – ditto @adamhcaldwell – that rpm kick after the 1st spray really makes skiing feel more fun and freer of the boat coming back under the line. Hope all of you can make a firmware upgrade with trick mode slalom options happen soon!

 

[Milford]

I have talked to several people who know the evolution of speed control and have been involved every step of the way. @horton is right when he says that the sound of the rpm swings originally freaked people out, so they backed away and tamed it down a bit. Back in the PP days, there was a very consistent sound from the boat, with very minimal rpm swings. When ZO was released, the “surging” of the RPM swings were very noticeable and different, even in the toned down version originally released. Talking to a person on the ZO committee, the reason that original ZO version, which was similar to trick mode, was not release was simply because it freaked people out and was too different. Now that we have become sensitized to the ZO rpm swings, I think that market will be much more accepting of a new option that allows for an immediate and aggressive response from the boat, utilizing the available HP in the right space to achieve ultimate performance.

 

From what I understand, nothing will being taken away from ZO. ABC-123 will all still be there as they are today. A new additional option will be available utilizing parameters that are similar to trick mode. This new setting will not be trick mode, but something similar (hopefully better).

 

It is really great to see so much interest in a new option. I have heard that the new trick mode version has been programmed into a few different head units and are being tested by people that are in a position to make this a reality. My hope is that we see something in the early spring, before the tournament season gets underway.

 

One thing is for sure, spectators watching from the dock, shoreline or boat won’t have any trouble recognizing when the new setting is being used, as it will be noticeable and different.

 

[AdamCord]

I wasn't involved with the development of Plus mode at all, but I was used as a test dummy a few times in 2011 when the ZO team was working on it. We were also playing with trick mode back then. There was a lot of agreement that trick mode was good (especially for bigger guys), and that that's what plus mode should be. The few sets I remember taking behind Mapple's boat with "Prototype Plus Mode" were absolutely awesome. The engine revved a lot, and it was really easy to create swing speed and get early. I remember being really excited about Plus mode.

 

Fast forward to 2012 when plus mode came out...and it was terrible. Clearly something happened after that proto version I rode came out and before the production version was released.

 

If I understand the parameters correctly, there are only one or two tweaks that need to be made to make 3 plus (As in A3+, B3+, etc) feel like trick mode. HOPEFULLY the guys working on this are able to make those changes. That would still allow us to adjust the letter so that we can change the timing of when the throttle comes on.

[Horton]

Had a thought the other day....

 

If each boat company fine tunes the ZO parameters for their own boats and for each engine then perhaps one company could try to get ahead of the curve and get the new programing in the new boats asap.

 

As I understand it the thing we like about trick mode is one parameter known as Kp. If the feeling of Trick Mode is as big a deal as many of us think then the boat company that adopts if first may sell a few extra boats. Just putting it out there.

[Horton]

IWWF? Seriously?

[gregy]

Anyone try Slalom mode without mapping the course. I remember skiing behind a boat when ZO first came out and we were using it without mapping. I remember it being much more reactive to skiers input.

[Horton]

@Rico there is the issue of normalization. I understand the boat companies have agreed in the past to try to make all the boats feel the same as possible. I am not sure they have been as successful as we would want. There may be a unwritten (or written?) policy for one boat manufacture to NOT peel off and do something different (better).

[Texas6]

@gregy - I've done it and honestly couldn't tell much of a difference except I was worried more about times which were still never off

[Horton]

Lesson learned. When you have not skied for 3 months Trick mode might be a bit much right off the dock. : )

[Milford]

Just heard that the possibility of trick mode being added to ZO, prior to Nationals, is extremely unlikely. Sounds like it will happen, just going to take longer that we were hoping….

 

So, in the meantime, everyone has the ability to try trick mode today, just not in a tournament. As the ice comes off the lake and everyone gets back into skiing form, would love to hear from those who who give trick mode a try.

 

[jjackkrash]

What is difference between trick mode and a mode that tries to keep the boat at a constant speed at all times, i.e., freight-train mode? Or is there a difference?

[escmanaze]

So...please forgive me as I am just now realizing that this thread exists. However, it's been a month now and ice should be thawing off of a bunch of lakes (including stillwater, where the yeti was running in a drysuit last November) so I'm thinking that maybe we can now start getting a bunch more feedback on people trying/using this setting. I am very intrigued by this concept.

[MISkier]

I would be surprised to see this new trick mode setting approved. It seems like there would be some questions, especially if is closer to PerfectPass. There might be some concerns that skiers who were not forced to adapt to Zero Off (as-is) and stayed out of tournaments because they didn't/couldn't upgrade their boats would now enter the tournament scene and have an unfair advantage with the new, friendlier setting. There could be an argument made that they would achieve rankings and qualifications that they would not have garnered prior to this setting and that would exceed those who have skied with current Zero Off for years. Some might say it would not be a level playing field and/or could have an effect on the podiums at Regionals or Nationals. They might want to allow it at a class C to entice skier participation.

 

Personally, it doesn't matter to me, as long as the original settings remain and I still have the option to select those. I might try it out this year, but not until later in the season.

[Dirt]

@MISkier good one. I almost spit my coffee out.

 

I bet lighter skiers won't even feel a difference. My guess is this will only help heavier skiers and it is not like PP. PP was slow to react and lets you pull it down.

[Horton]

@MISkier Your logic is correct but your facts are not.

 

Trick mode is actually farther from Perfect Pass. With Perfect Pass the boat comes in hot and the speed swings more. With the current ZO there is less speed swing than PP but the boat does not always catch up before before the skier switches edges (so the power is on as you leave the second wake). With a future slalom mode that would be built in what we learned from Trick Mode the boat speed is even more constant and the boat makes up any lost speed (time) faster so when the skier switches edges the boat is already backing off.

 

the hope is that the new setting would be an option like ABC123. You will be able to choose to ski the new version or not.

[MISkier]

@Horton, I did recall someone in this thread comparing it to PerfectPass, but amped up (something like that). So, it may not be true PerfectPass, but closer?

[Horton]

@MISkier not like PP at all

[Than_Bogan]

Ok now we HAVE to have the "Insightful Sarcasm" button because people can't recognize it otherwise.

[Horton]

No sarcasm here

[jjackkrash]

@horton, so trick mode is more like a constant-speed fright train than the other settings and than PP?

[Gloersen]

@jackrash -

Trick Mode for slalom feels like having the throttle in the handle for the skier (especially an "A" setting imo).

Load; throttle applied, unload; throttle lets up quickly.

Engine RPM spread is significantly greater and more acute, speed spread is tighter (less); unlike PP classic.

It does not feel like a "constant-speed freight train", imo that is when the pull has very little RPM spread.

For some skiers it feels more functional in producing a "swing" compared to current ZO settings.

Definitely easier on the body imo.

 

[Drago]

@MISkier sarcasm font, I assume?

[MISkier]

@Drago, maybe. There might be something I posted, when inspected closely, that seems to have differing, contradictory support from another topic that is essentially the same logic.

[Horton]

I spend most of my days interacting with a two-and-a-half-year-old. Whatever secret coded joke @MISkier is making is beyond me.