releaseable binding vs Radar Vapor binding

[Jaypro]

So after 2 years of injury, I am considering a releasable binding. I am nothing special, 15' off skier, but I am considering a Reflex binding and staying RTP. Looking for someone of my comparable ability to give some thoughts. Does anyone know if any shops or reflex has a demo type program?

[Horton]

@Jaypro below is a repost from another thread.

 

You can get hurt in any binding. The trick is to understand the pros and cons of any binding. In the last 10 years I have mostly used Radar and Reflex. You can use of either of these systems to be extremely dangerous or extremely safe. The trick is to understand to how they release and make a decision on your risk level.

 

My rule with the Radar Vapor (and other similar systems) bindings is that i have to run the top lace loose enough that I can pull the ski off without loosening the lace.

 

Here is my Reflex release test.

[Jaypro]

excellent point @OB1

[dchristman]

The best release is the hands, the only problem is the mechanism may become jammed by the brain under duress. It's good to have a backup release.

[Horton]

@OB1 I totally disagree. Most ankle injuries do not happen at a time when the skier would ever thing to let go.

[gregy]

My ankle have been so much better since I went to a releasable binding. There is maintenance and inspection that needs to be done. I had a fall today were the tail come out and the binding release with no pain at all. Before it would have been a sore ankle for a week or so.

[Jaypro]

going to hardshell binding, is there an on/off feeling to the binding? Meaning is it difficult to make fine adjustments in the turn?

[skialex]

I don't think on and off feeling is correct, more responsive to skier's input yes.

[Horton]

@Jaypro the difference is not radical. If you're worried about that you might look at the Edge binding. The hard shell for that binding is surprisingly pliable. I'm expecting one of the mail any day and will do a review ASAP.

[gregy]

I went from rubber to Reflex black top then to Supershell. The Black tops was a very easy transition just took a few sets to get used to. The Supershell took a few weeks. I definitely noticed more sensitivity in the turns but after that they have been gold.

[Jaypro]

Looking forward to your review @Horton. 4 feet of snow here in VT,it's gonna be a while here!!

[Than_Bogan]

When transitioning from rubber, the cuff is absolutely key. It can't go too high up on your shin (use a hack saw like many pros do if needed!), and may need to be buckled very loose, at least while you get used to it.

[dchristman]

Modify at your own risk - you may be changing intended release characteristics. Try stock first and understand what your intended modifications will affect.

[eleeski]

I couldn't slalom at all of my first version of hardshells, way too stiff. I ended up cutting them up in various ways to soften them and ended up loving them. The Intuition liners are a large part of the feel and comfort. I skied them for a long time with few releases and few injuries.

 

Lisa struggled with the transition from rubber to Radar boots. She ended up moving her boots forward a huge amount, switching to a RTP and now she loves them. Some adjustment of the ski might be needed.

 

I switched to a Radar front boot after a couple ankle tweaks. This might have been a bit less stressful on my sore ankles (I run them quite loose with frequent replacement of the bungee laces). I took falls that released by: 1) ripping the binding off the ski (screwed in but no inserts), 2) releasing the liner out of the shell, 3) releasing the foot clear of the liner/boot. Note, I'm using fairly thick (not stock) Intuition liners in my Radars. If you go with Radars, don't overtighten the laces - it ups the injury risk and might hurt performance (if like me, you like a softer boot).

 

A lot of the ankle problems I had were related to ski characteristics. Skis that skipped out tended to hurt my ankles. Changing the ski solved the ankle stress issues. While @dchristman is right about grinding the boots changing the release characteristics, make sure you like the way the ski/boot package works for optimal safety.

 

Rubber boots scare me. But almost the only time I use rubber boots is to jump - and jumping scares me.

 

Eric

[lakeaustinskier]

@jaypro If you are concerned about the "on/off" feel to the binding you might try the Fluid Motion Evo series. I've been on the FMs for several years mostly because the upper part of the binding isn't as rigid as most hardshells. FMs don't seem to be very popular but they work for me (I'm a 32/35 off skier). Good luck!

[markchilcutt]

My daughter is running Reflex front with RTP and loves it!

[Stevie Boy]

I haven,t heard a lot about the MOB binding system reading the info, it seemed to be quite a good system but haven,t seen one in use ?

[Than_Bogan]

MOB is new this year. @OB1 is on it, I believe.

[6balls]

I'd be interested in some review on reflex front RTP as well. I run rubber front RTP currently and love the performance, and I have not had any game changing ankle issues though I think once was a whisker away. What I don't like about rubber is my foot going dead after a number of passes.

The strada I find too loose and if I snug it like I want it then it's no longer releasable. Any 35/38 skiers running Reflex and RTP?

[gregy]

My ski partner @parkerc2112 uses Reflex front with RTP he gets into 35off. A Wiley's RTP.

[disland]

@OB1 Can you elaborate on the different in shells between the Reflex shell and the Goode shell. Since the MOB lets you use any shell what are you using and why?

[dzski]

I have heard concerns regarding prerelease with ob4 system, does this happen with the newer MOB bindings?

[ecno]

I want to switch to a reflex, I think, but I'd be coming from an HO xmax with direct connect. I bought a vapor because I tested one out last year and loved it so I can't put my old bindings on it to help the transition. I haven't skied yet this year because... Well... It's Canada

 

My question is, if I went for the reflex now, is it a huge difference that I would be pissed about? In which case I should get a vapor and then later get a reflex. I just don't want to buy the vapor just to replace it or want to replace it part way through the season as that would be a waste.

 

Thoughts?

[eleeski]

What bindings were on the Radar you liked? Get those.

 

Or just get the Reflex. Embrace the change. If you hate the Reflex, get the Vapor binding. Use the Reflex on your trick ski. I guarantee you will trick better on a hardshell. Or a tricker will buy it from you.

 

Eric

[ecno]

@eleeski I don't trick, only slalom and I hates the bindings that were on the vapor when I tested it so that's a none starter haha.

 

My plan was to put the new reflexes on my old ski (v-type) to at least get used to them but I'm selling it, hence the dilemma.

 

[Chef23]

@ecno for me the Reflex shift was a pretty big one. The first set I couldn't even turn the ski on one side I think it was my on-side. It took 2-3 sets before I could run a pass and 6 or so before I could get down the rope to my practice average. That was coming from a Radar Strada so it might be a similar transition from the HO Xmax.

 

For a complicated list of reasons I went back to the Radar boot and had no trouble switching back.

[bigskieridaho]

@ecno I ski with a Vapor boot and love it. Me coming from a big background in snow skiing like the way the liner feels like a ski boot. Been wanting to try a Reflex considering it is the same concept. The Vapor boot is awesome tho.

[ScottScott]

Go with a Vapor on MOB, thats the setup I'm looking toward when I round up the money.....

[eleeski]

@ecno Bindings might be more important than skis. Changing both is a huge project. But both the Radar and the Reflex are excellent products which should improve your skiing. It is possible to optimize both. Be willing to move things around - a lot! Jump in and enjoy the learning process.

 

And take up tricking. It's fun.

 

Eric

[TWB]

@ecno I Skied a Reflex for 2 years and liked it. It was a difficult transition from rubber bindings, and my first hand full of sets were exactly like @Chef23's. I never felt like my offside was as consistent with it though. I attributed that to the narrow front of the boot not allowing me to get my inside toe planted and bring my weight forward. What ultimately made me switch to a Vapor binding was a prerelease that hurt like *%@#. I tested it many times like Andy and Horton before that occurred.

 

I was worried about the lack of stability when I switched to the Vapor because of its hybrid design (I tried a rubber binding once or twice during my time on the Reflex and felt like I was using a sock for a binding). Switching back to a rubber binding was more difficult than the switch to a hardshell. I found the lateral control and rigidity of the Vapor was equal to that of the Reflex, and felt immediately comfortable.

[ecno]

Wow this is all great info! Thanks! I'm really thinking of the vapor. If I get a releasable binding it will be a reflex because everyone in the club I ski at runs the reflex and I'lI be able to get all the help I need

[ecno]

@Chef23 @TWB And no worries about not releasing in a wipe out? I bail ALOT when I'm trying to progress, the xmax has never failed me that way but I just feel like I need more control and more than it has to offer, not to mention it won't work on the vapor

[slow]

Vapor is a low maintenance solution that works great for me. It took me awhile to get used to running the bungees loose. I felt like I had to sinch them tight for control. I changed to a more substantial footbed and I feel more connected while still running them loose enough to release.

[Chef23]

I have skied into 38 off on the Strada boot which isn’t as stiff as he new Vapor being very comfortable with both the control and release of the boot. I was also very cowith the release of the Reflex. My son has been skiing on Reflex for about 10 years with no issues.

[skialex]

@ecno you can always put your direct connects on adapter plates so you can get used to the new ski and later if you want change to Reflex or Radar or any other hard shell system. I believe HO sells adapter plates for xmax but you can also take any spare plate available and modify it.

[WoodySkier]

A guy I ski with completely shattered his ankle last year on a reflex with a low release setting and an RTP.

 

I ski on a vapor binding and have for years, I’ve taken some nasty OTF falls and always release when I should.

[OldboyII]

I had a couple hard crashes in bindings with silvretta release and all was Ok.

But in the middle of last season in relatively simple situation something went wrong - I had a soft fall but with "helicopter" component. Ski did not go off. Result - broken tibia and torn ligaments. May be very-very rare situation, but it happened. Dry land release test before set was ok, even softer than recommended.

Recovered well and this season ski again using a custom knee brace. May be will be back to hardshell, but only when it will have independent active release units both on the heel and toe - like alpine bindings. Not necessary that complicated but independent & active.

[BraceMaker]

@OldboyII i'm in the camp of people who had rotational fractures (femur)- currently MOB is your closest binding to that from the perspective that it has the ability to release the toe rotationally which no other waterski binding really has (including rubber).

 

I still think it pretty ironic that Silvretta had a rotational release in its binding that waterskiing eliminated.

[OldboyII]

So much technology and money invested in ski boats, and so litle in safety systems of bindinds.

[epnault]

I am starting my third season on Reflex. I remember the switch very clearly from the Lace up boots - i couldn't turn. It just took a few outings and I was back and better than before. I push myself hard and with that comes falls. I have had so many that make me brace and cringe from all the years of traditional bindings but then "boom" I am free of the ski to a safe landing. I suffered so many ankle and toe strains until I switched to ReFlex. Love the confidence and safety from this binding. My kid is an occasional course skier and I got him Reflex because I think it is safer for him too.

[JBB]

I didn't read through every comment here (while at work), but plan to. I believe that HO does the demo program with their syndicate hard shell boot.

[JBB]

 

 

Also, it was stated above, but the transition is a bit tricky. This is in part because there isn't a canting system in the hardshells, like ski boots do. SO... when you put one foot in front of the other, the shin leans a bit to the hip, and puts pressure on that side of the boot. I have rotated my rear

[UWSkier]

Are you guys mostly on RTPs? I've taken some really hard falls with my double Animals in the past, and my double Vapors now. I don't recall an ejection from the ski since sometime around 2002. I do fear a one-in-one-out fall, but that never seems to happen either. Both feet usually stay in for me, which seems to help with the safety factor.

 

Not sure my left knee would be intact if I used a right RTP all these years though...

[lukewright]

I ski a vapor/RTP. Vapor will and has released for me when I wanted it to. Love the connection to the ski. IMO don't listen to the people who will tell you to buy a size up for the vapor boots. I went true to size and ~8 passes into a set I get some discomfort but I'll take that over a loose connection to the ski.

 

For what it's worth, neither Reflex nor the Vapor will release with crashes where you're rotating instead of going over the front as far as I know.

[pregom]

I started to use a Vapor boot with RTP at the end of last year and so far I like it (I had a Vector boot before). I like to read what folks here have to say about the safety of some systems compared to others. The MOB System seems to be the closest to a snow ski binding mechanism. I watched all the videos that Mike has on his website and I am puzzled by the release testing video in which he says "A lot of folks have tried to test this on the dock by stepping in the boot and trying to pressure it forward to release. I've never been able to make that work. Bottom line is if the mechanism releases freely, it's going to work consistently every time." Isn't forward pressure what we would get in an OTF fall? How are we supposed to trust the system is set up properly, with the right tension on the spring? On snow skis and, from watching Horton's test at the beginning of this thread, on the Reflex system there is no problem testing everything before you get into a situation in which you really need to count on the system.

[mmosley899]

@pregom in an out the front fall while skiing the force on the release is more dynamic and much more instantaneous. You can force the release standing on the dock, but I usually end up kicking myself in the shin, and it doesn't really replicate what would cause a release on the water. If you want to test the release, you need a torque wrench and an adapter.

[pregom]

Thanks, @mmosley899. I'm trying to understand how your system works. If I got it correctly, the heel is attached to the base plate with a "hook" so there is no chance for it to disengage. The only disengagement that can happen is through the spring loaded front hook. I may be thinking about this incorrectly, but in an OTF fall I imagine that most of the torque is in the vertical plane of the ski towards the tip of the ski. The front hook of the MOB system would cause the boot to separate from the ski only if there are other vectors of forces that cause the tip of the boot to move away from its alignment with the front hook. Maybe that's what you mean with skiing forces being more dynamic?

[mmosley899]

@pregom actually the heel attachment is a wedge shaped tenon and mortise, the spring pressure from the front forces the wedge into the wedge block. In an otf fall your body weight acts as a lever forcing the compression of the spring allowing the boot plate to slide forward causing the wedge to move up and out from the back. Your upper body weight actually moves in an arc forward as the ski digs in and stops. Of course there are usually other tangent forces involved also. So the torque is not in a vertical plane but in an arc and the wedge shape accommodates that directional force. And any rotational force is also delt with by the plunger and socket setup at the toe.

 

The MOB release is the only one that can deal with rotational forces which also adversely act on the ankle and knee. Testing the reflex type release on the dock is one dimensional and so is forcing the MOB to release from the heel while on the dock.

[ozski]

@mmosley899 Ever had a pre release occur with the MOB when setup correctly?

[mmosley899]

@ozski absolutely not, and not in twenty five years of using this type release for all three events, hence the name Mike's Overall Binding.