Handle control or load control?

[Razorskier1]

I skied a bunch of 32s today and played with the concept of handle control. My conclusion is that handle control is a result, not an action. For example, if you are loading the line after the centerline, the boat will separate you from your handle. However, if you load the line before centerline, then rise up and ride the line out (let the boat pull you, rather than you pulling on the boat), you will find it is quite easy to control the handle. This, of course, then leads to all sorts of other good things like staying on top of your ski, controlling your speed, eliminating slack line, etc. So, if you want to control your handle, control your load.

 

My slalom idea of the day.

[MNshortliner]

When I ski I always load the line from buoy to the wake then over the wake is more of a leaning coast then start my standing up and handle release after the second wake. I let the handle out quick and get the ski flat soon after. It feels like I get my upper body forward and weight over the front of the ski but in videos it doesn't appear that way. When I do these things skiing feels great and I can get into -35. Why do people say the early release handle is not desirable and to keep it in as long as possible with both hands on as long as possible?

[Razorskier1]

You do need both hands as long as possible, you just can't do it with too much load. As Chet used to say to me, two hands on the handle, outside the buoyline, on top of your ski. What I am suggesting is that you can't do this if you are too fast or too loaded. My sets this morning I barely released the handle at all - I approached the ball with two hands on, moved the handle forward, released, turned, and was back in no time.

[ski6jones]

I've been struggling with the action of the edge change for the last year or two. I've learned this year what you say is true @Razorskier1, the edge change is a result of other things not an action in and of itself. At least that's how I see it at this point in my progression to ski better.

[Wish]

@Razorskier1 YES! As said on the other thread, slack or separation can't be managed well with just handle control if at all. Free skiing will demonstrate this well. Another way to say it may be...you can put all the effort you like with your upper body past centerline in terms of loading the line but you can no longer have the ski between you and the boat with any load. Best skiers in with world are working their tails off from the waist up past centerline but little to no load up from the ski and into their legs. Ski is almost flat passing over second wake. Edge change and quality handle control is a product of what happens prier to centerline and that all starts with a functional pull out, glide and gate. One of the best examples of this is TW at 1/4 speed. All business from waist up with max intensity off second wake but almost 0 load on his legs as the ski is flat or almost there. It's what he does before the wake that gives him quality handle control 0 slack and no separation. And heck..who minds watching the vid again. Amazing.

 

[Razorskier1]

@Wish - given my particular physique I find I am doing almost nothing after center line other than riding the handle path.

[Wish]

Simply put, dont load the ski past CL. Load the line as much as you like after CL (there will be very little). So you must be doing something very right @Razorskier1. Good stuff.

[chris55]

@Razorskier1 great stuff you are talking about. Any video eventually ? That would be the best for intermediate skier like me. I am trying to understand all of this and to put them together when I ski (34mph 15off skier)

[gregy]

I've commented on the same thing to my ski partners. If I have a good stack and skiing well the handle right where it needs to be.

[MNshortliner]

Can you explain to me why 2 hands as long as possible is the way to ski. Logically to me one hand off as soon as possible makes more sense.

[RazorRoss3]

@MNshortliner, I will make an attempt.

Preface, I am a 36mph skier with tourney scores into -38

 

There are two connection points on the water that allow the skier to generate and control their speed and direction. Those points are the water and the boat. The connection to the water is dependent on the skiers ability to apply enough force into the ski that their weight is supported by the ski, even in the turn. The connection to the boat is dependent on maintaining a tight line and maintaining tension against the boat. If you lose either of these connection points then you have given up control of you speed and direction and mostly just have to hope it turns out ok. At early lines it is workable but still not good to lose these connections because the path the ski takes is still largely side to side so the ski doesn't try to go to the buoy as much as it does at -32 and beyond which is why a lot of us will get through 28 and 32 before handle control becomes a limiting factor.

 

When you keep control of your handle off the second wake it allows you to maintain your outbound direction casting you wide and early of the buoy while maintaining control over your speed because you are still experiencing pull from the boat. If you let go too early or if you let your handle separate from your body even with 2 hands still on, you have given up your directional control and the ski is going to take a path much more directly at the ball rather than early of the ball. In addition you no longer have any control over your speed and simply need to hope you have generated the right amount, too much and you go screaming past the buoy and turn into slack or can't even turn, too slow and you don't get to the ball. So two hands on and controlling the handle keeps you at the end of the line, casts you earlier to the ball, and keeps the skis actions under your control versus what I used to call "swinging the ski and hoping" before my handle control improved.

[ski6jones]

Skiing in the wind will demonstrate why you want to remain connected to the boat via the line. If you come off the handle early in a headwind you better have enough speed to make it to the ball. If you keep the handle with you as you ski wide the wind will have much less control over your speed because you are still connected to the boat.

 

[6balls]

@MNshortliner it is also a tendency for many that when they release they lose outbound direction and ski up-course rather than continue out-bound...if that makes sense. Hard to get wide and high on the boat skiing up course.

 

[ToddL]

Yes. That is all.

[bigtex2011]

@MNshortliner I would tend to think more like your gate pull out. Rolling out with pressure on the line with 2 hands. In the course, as you move thru the centerline and transition keeping pressure on the line with two hands helps maintain an outbound direction and balance over your feet.

[bigtex2011]

good example

 

[Wish]

Crazy example and panda worthy I'm sure but as kids we rode the swing seat to its highest point before letting go when we wanted to see who could eject the highest and farthest off the seat. If you let go and jumped out of the seat to soon, hight and distance were lost and basically you were driven straight into the dirt. Similar concept. By letting go with one hand to soon, you've basically given up the swing momentum at that point and your trajectory will be low and not very far up on the boat where the buoy is. Following and holding onto the handle path with two hands gets you higher and further up in the boat as your using the handle paths swing.

 

https://tinyurl.com/lmluosd

 

[Wish]

I like pendulum. Was using swing as a verb. But a good visual for sure to see it as a pendulum.

[MNshortliner]

Some of that makes sense.

In that video of Matt Brown it looks like he has a fairly early release on buoys 1-4 then on 5 and 6 he holds the handle to the buoy line. Quite a few videos I see people are holding the handle to the buoy line then releasing. I'm not saying I release the handle at the wake but I do not hold it to the buoy line. Maybe I will have to try holding a little longer.

[Stevie Boy]

I suffer from quick hand syndrome, punch it out and snatch it back in, I thought I was getting slower but apparently not, I suppose if you only give the boat as little rope as possible, you have support and control, keeping both hands on the handle for as long as possible, is going to be the only way to acheive this, sounds simples, I wish !

Slowly load the bungy and slowly release the bungy = Control

[Razorskier1]

Point is that two hands on (handle control) is critical, but can't be achieved unless you do other things right first. I believe poor handle control is most often poor load management. Superman can't keep the handle low and tight after CL if he's loading the line too much.

[Gloersen]

"poor handle control is most often poor load management"

 

that sums it up!

 

similar to not maintaining good velocity into the pre-turn (a result of above); getting deep with an abrupt, unsustainable load/angle off the backside.

 

Once you serve up the handle; you're along for the ride and not getting wide.

[AkBob]

"Similar to not maintaining good velocity in the preturn ". Exactly!!! And it starts at the gate. Gut 102 is worth a reread in the tech section. More speed.... less load or at least an amount that doesn't stand you up at centerline

[sunvalleylaw]

Thanks all. This all helps me as I try to understand this issue more, and modernize what I have always tried to do. I still have not gotten out on the water, but am itching to try this. Better yet, though it looks like we have to reschedule, I will get to try stuff while being coached by the guy in that first vid. Thanks for the insights, @Razorskier1

[Than_Bogan]

Barely on topic, but: Be a little careful with pendulum analogies. I think what Wish is talking about translates pretty well, but it's easy to trick ourselves into thinking we're literally on a pendulum, whereas the physics of a skier are ultimately fairly different, mainly because a pendulum is only affected by string tension and gravity, whereas a skier can (and does) use the water to apply forces in other directions.

[MISkier]

@Than_Bogan, good point. Also, the pivot point of a pendulum doesn't usually move. A boat (and its pylon) do move.

[AdamCord]

@Than_Bogan if you really want to confuse yourself, think about it like this... It IS a pendulum, but gravity (or what would be considered gravity in a normal pendulum scenario), pendulum length, and friction in the system are all variable. We as the skier actually have some amount of control over all three of those variables, and our goal is to optimize them to increase the rate at which the pendulum swings.

 

Gravity - This is the force that is pulling us backward relative to the boat.

Pendulum Length - This relates to where our COM is relative to the pylon, or handle if that's easier to think about.

Friction - How much resistance there is to traveling around the pylon, or in this case across the lake.

 

By turning the ski 90 degrees to the boat path and trying to come to a complete stop out of the turn, you can maximize "gravity", which should increase your rate of rotation around the pylon. The problem is you will also increase friction in the system, because we are moving on a medium (water) that will increase drag as our speed drops. This will also make the load go through the roof, so the pendulum will likely get longer, also slowing rotation.

 

The optimization comes from increasing "gravity" as much as possible after the turn while maintaining a high speed, thus reducing friction and also keeping the pendulum short (connection to the handle or handle control). This is why we want to carry speed out of the turn, but be very aggressive with the pull into the first wake, while keeping as efficient position as possible (stacked, leading the ski). After the centerline we want low gravity and friction, again with a short pendulum. This is why getting on the turning edge (edge changing) as early as possible while keeping two hands on the handle is beneficial. You'll keep a high swing rate around the pylon, getting you wide and early.

 

While this stuff becomes crucially important at short line, it still applies at all line lengths and should be the focus of skiers no matter what level.

[ToddL]

Love all this! Thanks, guys.

[ScottScott]

I believe it was marcus brown i saw talking about trailing vs leading arm pressure.....comparing your body to a toilet paper roll being pulled out and rotated. Your body will get rotated downcourse without enough trailing arm pressure. I think of handle control similarly....its almost imposible to prevent the boats pull from twisting your body downcourse if you allow the handle to get pulled away from your body once you are past the center. I definitely start aiming for the buoy and reaching as soon as i cross the wakes....need to work on that a lot more......amugst 100 other things.

[Razorskier1]

@ScottScott - Marcus is right. But keep in mind that if the handle is being pulled away from your body after the second wake, it isn't that you aren't "controlling the handle", but instead that you have too much pressure pulling away from the handle path, causing separation. If your ski path is the handle path, it requires much less pressure than you think to maintain speed, keep the line tight, and get plenty wide. So if you find yourself separated, try just riding and letting the boat pull you along the handle path after CL.

[brettmainer]

I agree with the premise presented by the Ross family. I also really liked Cord's pendulum discussion (I am both an engineer and a subscriber to the pendulum theory). That said, I feel it helps me to consciously tighten and resist with with my upper body for a split second in the transition to keep my inside elbow tight. After that split second, the ride out is smooth and I can relax and try to stand up. If I don't consciously resist, my arm separates a little and I don't have the desired 90 degree inside arm bend after the transition.

 

However, as stated by @Razorskier1, if you aren't stacked with good leverage and speed into the wakes, you aren't going to achieve the desired transition regardless of what you do.