2009 Ski Nautique 196 - motor threw a rod

[UWStoutSkier]

We have a 2009 Ski Nautique 196 with the PCM Excalibur 343 in it with about 420 well maintained hours on it.

 

Today it started running weird and making noises, stopped, shut the motor off, and checked the oil and it couldnt be seen on the dip stick. Got a tow back to the dock filled it up with oil and tried to start it. That's when it made a Big Bang.... threw a rod and went threw oil pan - appeares to be the cylinder closetest to the driver seat.

 

What is everyone's opinions on what to do?

I'm mechanical inclined. What's the cheapest option, rebuild or buy a crate long block?

[spicoli]

Well you know if u do it it's cheaper so only difference is warranty

[oldjeep]

Long block from michiganmotorz would be my first choice. Not much if any money to be saved doing a self rebuild if you need machine work.

[dbutcher]

I know your engine is long out of warranty, but I wonder if a friendly call to PCM would have any value. It's remotely possible that PCM has had a recall on this vintage engine or is aware of a problem that they might be willing to help you with. It doesn't seem like your engine should have failed like this so early in its expected life (unless it was run low on oil or otherwise abused). Alternatively, PCM may have a suggestion on repair. If memory serves, PCM has in the past rebuilt engines that were replaced under warranty and had the rebuilts for sale at a good price. A Nautique dealer may have ideas for you too.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Uhhh. "about 420 well maintained hours on it........checked the oil and it couldnt be seen on the dip stick. "

 

Something else is going on here. A well maintained boat doesn't simply run out of oil.

 

Did you just buy this or have you been doing the "well maintained?"

 

If i really did throw a rod, call @jodyseal and see if you can get a new or rebuilt 343

[Orlando76]

Like the above post states, no oil on dipstick?? Can't call that well maintained and I surely wouldn't expect PCM to do anything after that acknowledgement.

[UWStoutSkier]

Well I'm not going to argue with you about maintenance, believe what you want. But here's what I will tell you I worked at a dealership for 5 years and I'm well aware of keeping up with maintenance, our last boat we got 1700 hours out of (and the motor was still good). This boat was bought from a guy who only had his local nautique dealership work on it and it was pristine. We always watch the oil. The boat had only been used for 2 hours since the last time the the oil was checked. So to not be seen on the dip stick, it must be about atleast 1 1/2 quarts low. Where does all that oil go so fast? And then once more was added, it threw a rod immediately when trying to start it.

 

Thanks for the info^ on long block availability, I have a whole list of companies I need to call.

 

Does anyone know how much a rebuild averages in cost? Granite, theee would have to be machining and check the crank to make sure it's still true. Not leaning towards a rebuild but just keeping my options open

[oldjeep]

I'd expect to find the oil in the bilge due to a failed drain hose if it wasn't puffing oil smoke out the exhaust. Be hard to tell now as your bilge is certainly full of oil after the rod through the pan, but you could check the drain line and see if it has a crack in it.

[Gloersen]

@UWStoutSkier - if after the last oil change, if the old filter's gasket ring remained stuck to the mounting surface of the assembly, then the new filter with its gasket doubles up on it and doesn't seal well or works loose. The engine can lose oil quickly but its usually evident on the engine cover liner (it makes a bit of a mess). Be sure to check that status, remove the filter on now and keep an eye out for two gaskets (the one on the filter and the old one stuck on top or still on the assembly.

 

Have seen this occur after a dealer oil change, maybe into the 2nd or 3rd set and the engine blew, in this case the rod through the block. Fortunately the dealer did the right thing and replaced the engine.

[DW]

Also, while doing the above mentioned detective work, check the PVC hoses to see if excess oil collected there, might help eliminate where the oil was going. Plug check on the survivors would also provide some insight.

[skiinxs]

Was it a Fram oil filter? If so did it explode or blow out on the backside where you didn't notice it? Did you have any oil pressure warning indicators?

[UWStoutSkier]

The dealership did the last oil change, not sure on what type of filter (I'll have to go look) but I know it's not a fram. That's a good point, I will check the filter o-rings and the drain hose. Yes the bottom of the boat is full of oil and needs to be cleaned out. The hole it put in the pan is I'll check the spark plugs as well, and am going to have a bore scope put down the spark plug holes to see what the walls of the cylinders look like.

 

@Gloersen did the dealer rebuild your motor or get a long block? Did you ever see the price on it?

 

I've called a few different companies on long blocks:

-Jaspar wants $3,650 with core exchange and 2 year warranty

-Michigan Motorz wants $2,900 + $50 gasket kit and $215 for distributor pick up or drop off to a business with a fork lift and 1 year of parts and labor warranty

-Doug Russel Marine wants about $3400 with 1 year of warranty

[Bruce_Butterfield]

So was there oil in the bilge when you checked the dipstick and nothing was on it? Seems like that much oil loss (if it went into the bilge) would be obvious.

 

Ive seen the double gasket effect on the filter before - its very easy to overlook and now thats the single most anal thing I check on every oil change on every vehicle. I'll bet a 6 pack thats what happened. If so, you will have recourse with the dealer.

[Jmoski]

Have someone capture on video the removal of the oil filter and the possible discovery of the extra o-ring...

[swc5150]

This is the boat you replaced the sunken Bu with right? Man you guys have unfortunate luck. Sorry!

[UWStoutSkier]

@swc5150 yes it's been a rough year

 

@Bruce_Butterfield not sure if it the bilge was full right away. I'm the same way, I always check for the gasket when doing oil changes.

 

I'll check but I don't think that would be it because it's been 20 or 30 hours since the oil change.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

20 or 30 hrs since the oil change would be about right to loose several quarts. Just think about the newbie 17yo changing oil at the dealer (or jiffy libe). I'll increase my wager from a 6 pack to a case:)

[tdusin]

I have seen the oil pan rusted through near where the drain adapter screws into the bottom of the pan, the oil leaked out thru the rusted hole. I was told rusted thru oil pans are a common issue with that vintage of Excalibur engine with the oil quick drain kit installed.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield You said "dip stick" Haaaaaa dip stick

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton into the dogfish 90 I see

[keithh2oskier]

Problem Solved

[keithh2oskier]

Problem Solved

[LeonL]

I saw a SN with a 6.0 get the double gasket treatment. It lasted all of one round trip up and down the ski lake. Well, almost back. Surprisingly it seized up before it got back. Ask @skierjp about it.

[UWSkier]

Better get that sucker back running before fall semester boys! Any luck sourcing a new long-block?

[sixball]

You said it made noise before shutting down. So I bet you were smoking the bearings at that point. shutting it down and the crank keeps expanding from the heat. as soon as you start the rod is for basically frozen to the crank. At any point you had very significant damage before you restarted.

[LeonL]

If the rod (bearing) had seized to the crank I find it hard to believe that it would crank fast enough to start. I also find it hard to believe that it pitched a rod through the pan at idle speed.

[UWStoutSkier]

I got the motor pulled on Sunday and am still talking with several different companies and figuring out who has the best deal. There was not 2 gaskets on the oil filter and the impeller looks great. Not sure of cause yet but I will tear the engine down, later once the new one is in the boat.

[david_ski]

@Bruce_Butterfield @LeonL I feel so lucky today, I avoided the perfect storm.

 

@UWStoutSkier Very interested in learning what caused your failure.

 

I am super careful and I usually very anal at checking where the oil filter ring is when I take off the filter. Years ago my ski partner missed the double gasket a filter on his Toyota truck. He got 1/2 block before the oil dumped onto the street.

 

Anyway, back to the story. I usually drain my boats oil when it is on the trailer. Put the oil drain hose through the water plug drain and let it drain overnight. In the morning when everything is cool replace the filter and add oil.

 

This year we have the boat on a lift and we hit the 50 hour mark. Time for an oil change. We finish our sets, put boat on lift and pump out the oil using a vacuum pump. So far everything is great. I decide to tackle the filter when it is hot. Get the zip lock bag and unscrew the filter, play hot potato, drop into zip lock bag, and seal. Screw the new filter in and make it tight. Add 4.5 qts of oil. I was done, it was time to get out from under the boat canopy where it is ~100 degrees.

 

On my way home from the lake, I drop off the oil and filter at a oil recycle station. Evidence is now gone. end of story.... not yet....

 

Yesterday, was the first day after oil change. I start boat and everything is dry in the engine compartment. We ski 8 sets, and the boat goes back onto the lift. Open engine cover to pull drain plug and there is a sheen of oil in the bilge. There is evidence of oil escaping from the filter with oil spray on the inside of the engine cover. Yesterday it was hot and humid, and I decided to deal with the problem this morning while everything was cool.

 

This morning, I started to troubleshoot the problem.

1. ) Check dipstick for oil. Dipstick had oil and showed that I was just 1 qt LOW. Whew!

2. ) Next figure out what is wrong with filter.

3. ) The filter was loose, and could be tightened 1.5 turns. I loosened the filter and could see a second rubber gasket in addition to the one stuck on the filter.

4. ) I removed the second gasket, reattached the filter, and added 1.5 qts of oil.

5. ) Run engine until everything is hot.... No leaks.

 

With the filter that loose, I was probably 1-2 sets from a catastrophic engine failure.

 

Lessons learned.

1. ) Always deal with the filter when it is cool enough to handle.

2. ) Double and triple check that the old filter gasket came off with the filter.

3. ) Wait a couple of days before recycling the filters and oil.

4. ) Check for that oil filter gasket one more time.

 

[eleeski]

@Mark_Matis Good technique for inspecting the filter. But using EC4 silicone grease (or an equivalent) on the rubber of the filter will prevent sticking and make it easier to remove the old filter. When I use old oil, the filter sticks so badly that I destroy the old filter to remove it. My long oil change intervals contribute to the problem.

 

I learned the silicone grease trick because it is a requirement for aircraft oil filter replacement. Safely solves many problems.

 

Eric

[eleeski]

And what is it with college kids? UCLA blew up the engine in my old MC.

 

Austen, I am following your solution carefully. Or I will convert it to ZO.

 

Eric

 

 

[oldjeep]

The filters on my remote mount seem to stick no matter what. Never had a problem using this type of wrench to get them off. It doesn't destroy them but does crush them a bit.

 

[LeonL]

I can't grasp the concept of a sticking filter if it's installed properly. Granted I've had new vehicles, used ones that's someone else installed the filter and had problems. I've never, repeat never had difficulty removing a filter that I installed. Someone above mentioned using a wrench to install a filter. I only install them hand tight. Never had a leaker. Never had a sticker.

[oldjeep]

@LeonL It is the damdest thing. Every year I install my filter hand tight and every year it is a huge pain to get it off. Never had that issue on a car but many Malibu owners complain of the same issue. I changed 5 of them last year and the only one that came off easy was the block mounted filter on my inlaws response. Not sure if there is something magic about the remote filter adapter that welds it to the filter gasket but it is a common thing.

[DW]

@oldjeep : Is the remote filter block aluminum? If yes, that may be the issue compared to the iron block filter face.

[oldjeep]

@dw yup. They are aluminum.

[eleeski]

@oldjeep So are aircraft filter blocks. Perhaps the silicone grease trick has a relevant basis.

 

When I try to remove a filter that has been there for several years, only the filters I silicone greased have a chance of coming off. Regardless of the metal. (Some tools /toys aren't used that frequently.)

 

Eric

[oldjeep]

@eleeski - worth a shot. Googled ec4 silicone grease and came up with nothing, but there seems to be plenty of silicone/ptfe grease at places like home depot.

[eleeski]

@oldjeep Aircraft Spruce carries it but the name has changed to DC4. The Cessna 182 last flew 15 years ago so the instructions on the filter are a bit out of date. Still requires a silicone lube.

 

@Mark_Matis My tractor runs a few hours after the road washes out. I had to run it three times last year - big rain year in California. For 5 years before it didn't rain at all at my lake. Yeah, a lot of my engines go years between oil changes. When I do change the oil it does matter what lubed the gasket.

 

Eric

[david_ski]

@eleeski & @oldjeep What are your thoughts to using silicon/ptfe grease?

 

"Silicone Lubricating Grease with Syncolon® (PTFE) has a wider operating range than petroleum based lubricants; Excellent water protection and moisture barrier. Use on Plastic gears, plastic threads, as a damping medium for Dash Pots, lubricate O-Rings, electrical motor bearings and rubber components."

[eleeski]

The problem with silicone grease is that it is expensive. It works great. But it still gets dirty which is the limiting factor for things that I grease.

 

Compatibility with existing greases must be checked. Might even matter in fancy new equipment (but I have a hard time envisioning greases that don't mix - still I try to stay consistent). So for things like trailer bearings, I just use the marine grease that is reasonably cheap and what is already there. Regular grease intervals are more important than the type of grease for many greased applications.

 

The silicone grease is magic for faucets and plumbing parts. And in a very thin film on oil filter gaskets.

 

If I really need to protect something, I use anti seize. I haven't found better protection from water corrosion (even in salt water). It's messy though. And not as good as the silicone grease on oil filters.

 

Eric

[david_ski]

@eleeski. I agree with you on all points. 40+ years ago my future father-in law and his father introduced me to anti-seize for engine parts. Exhaust bolts, water pump bolts, anything near heat or moisture.

 

I will pick up a small tube of silicone for the oil filter to aluminum remote mounting bracket. I don't want another oil filter gasket that sticks to the remote filter block.

[UWStoutSkier]

Well I got the new motor dropped in the boat and started up first try on Saturday September 2nd! Drove it around Labor Day weekend breaking it in, then took it back up to school and finished the recommended 10 hour break in, did the first oil and filter change and have been using the boat almost every day. Got about 60 hours on the motor and she purs! Ready for another oil change already.

 

We took the the head (on the side that blew) and the oil pan off of the old block and all I can say is wow! It was the second cylinder back on the passenger side of the boat. Piston was disconnected from rod and I pulled it out by hand, all cracked up and skirt was no longer in existence. Rod put a hole through the cylinder and into the water jacket, broke in half and pieces were sitting in the bottom. Wrist pin was locked up in rod and wouldn't turn. Must have bent the crank because with everything out of the way it still wouldn't turn. Looks like cause of failure was multiple things, oil might have been low and impeller was a little chewed up (but not terrible, I've seen much worse) could have overheated at some point, who knows. Oil filter seal was NOT the cause of failure. Just thought I'd give everyone an update

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@UWStoutSkier, Well crap, I guess I'll have to make good on my wager. The only catch is I don't deliver B)

 

Glad you got it fixed!

[Gloersen]

@UWStoutSkier - if you have access to Diacom and their ECOM cable. it'd be good to run a report on the error codes, assuming they haven't been cleared. Reviewing the log should indicate when (hours) the engine may have overheated (if it did,). Also, if the ExCal 343 plastic shroud appears krinkled near the manifolds, it probably did overheat at some point (I don't believe the ECM on an '09 reads manifold temps). It would be useful info to have going forward with the new motor.

[DW]

@UWStoutSkier : Your description of the inspection indicates an oil related failure. My guess, little or no oil pressure resulted in piston pin sticking, followed by rod failure. You might pop off the rod cap and a main bearing cap to check bearing condition, sounds like they may have sustained damage if crank is locked. Glad boat is back on water.

[UWStoutSkier]

I took it into the dealer half way through the break in and had the ECM read and cleared. They didn't tell me the hours all they said was however many "# of starts ago" it had low oil pressure and overheated. Do you guys know if there is a way to read/clear codes myself without taking it all the way to a dealer?

[Fast351]

Sounds like a low oil pressure condition caused the failure. Could be several causes. Low oil level is one, failed oil pump or broken oil pump driveshaft is one, or several other causes. It doesn't take very long, especially at higher RPM under load, to smoke a main bearing to the point of failure where the crank locks up.

 

Assuming the cause is oil level, and not an oil pump failure, which is rare after that many hours, and your bilge wasn't full of oil when you checked it after the first noise, the oil must have gone out the exhaust. Could have been a hole in a piston, or maybe a broken ring land.

 

As for the piston pin, not sure if they use floating pins on the 343, but pressed pins are pretty common on older V8s.

 

In any case, glad you got it fixed!