Hard Shell Bindings - which type??

[amnesia]

Hey guys;

I've got a Radar Senate Alloy (67) with double featherlite boots. I'm learning the course at 15 off, 28mph. I recently went out the front at the second wake and my rear foot came out, but the front foot didn't - which caused me to go over forward way past where my ankle was meant to go, and really tweaked it bad! :'( I instantly realize that I need hard shell bindings with a proper release mechanism (I never really trusted lace up bindings anyways). I just wanted your thoughts on the pro's and con's of the various setups available and which you recommend. I'm considering Reflex, Edge, and HO Syndicate (those are the only ones I know of). I thought I would keep my rear featherlite, and just get a front hard shell. I'd really appreciate your thoughts & advice. Oh, I'm 5'8", 154 lbs, and 61 years old, and usually ski behind a Nautique. Thanks in advance.

[ToddA]

I give a resounding "+1" to the HO Syndicate Hardshell! I came from a Reflex, and had some pre-release issues (mostly b/c I wasn't keeping close enough attention to the plastic heel set-screws). Haven't had one pre-release with the HO.

[ScottScott]

If you had an over the front like that and didn't come out, you are laced up too tight. Can you pull your foot out of the boot without loosening the laces at the end of a set? Not to discourage a release boot, but the lace up should be pretty safe if you don't tighten too much.

[amnesia]

Well, they're pretty snug. I have never released - but I never needed to release either. I always keep my back boot "a bit" looser than the front - mostly so I can swivel my back foot a bit. I just remember the guys at Jack Travers and Sunset Ranch saying the reason they use hard shell bindings is its just too dangerous without the release mechanism. Granted they're going WAY harder than I am, but I don't want an injury.

[skee]

Amnesia I agree with ScottScott. I too, learned the hard way. At 60 I was having a helluva night and going for a personal best. Reached down and tightened my laces. BIG mistake. Malleolus fracture with screws, plates and cable in my left ankle. 3 years hence and it's still stiff but I have gone on to ski better and set new PB's. I now use a Reflex white cuff on the front and RTP rear on my Senate Alloy. It has brought me to a new level of skiing but more importantly took away the fear of getting back on a ski after a pretty serious injury. I have taken plenty of spills and the release is predictable. The HO Hardshell looks very interesting and would be a serious consideration if I were changing bindings.

Good luck, use soap and don't tug on those laces, especially the top ones.

[amnesia]

Very good points Scottscott & Skee. I have to admit that as i've been progressing i've been tightening the top lace of the front boot ever so slightly. I seriously doubt I could pull my foot out of either binding without undoing the laces, but I always felt that was due more to the material and boot shape than the lace tightness. They really fit like a glove (ski glove!). I'm not really "reefing" down on them much at all, and it's always a struggle to get into the boots with the laces undone (even though they are plenty big - size 7-11 and i'm 9 1/2). Soap is of no help with this liner material.

 

An interesting side note: the shop where I bought the set up are very knowledgeable and they told me that they had never had any foot fractures (not ankle/malleolar) prior to selling these bindings. In the first year they had a bunch of nasty foot fractures and actually contacted radar with their concerns. The following year the boots came with a warning tag on the laces saying not to tighten them more than some amount (30 pounds I think). Seems like a pretty inaccurate "release setting mechanism" to me.

[Killer]

The problem with the boots your in is they are a 7-11 size range and you're a 9.5.

 

If I asked you to go walk around all day in size 11 sneakers, how do you think you'd do? Redundant but relevant.

 

The better soft shell boots like the radar vapor are exact shoe size, so you don't need to reef on the laces like that. Liner comes out with your a foot and you can easily test them on dry land. I'm going on 10 years on the radar RS1/Strada/vapor boots into 38 off. I don't crash much these days but have taken plenty of OTF double ejections. Never so much as tweaked an ankle.

 

Based on the fact all of the hardshell boots you mention are not Waterski bindings,but adapted snow and roller bladr boots is worth mentioning. I caution novice skiers looking at them - they are far more work to maintain and far more technical than you need. It is very much debatable if they are actually safer for a skier at your level as well.

 

 

[amnesia]

Interesting point Killer. These bindings remind me of my snow ski bindings from 40 years ago - but those released in many axes and not just heel lift. I realize the forces on snow ski bindings are much greater than on the water, but I doubt that any of the current waterski bindings would come close to passing snow ski binding liability requirements.

 

But honestly, the bindings are so snug that I barely need to tighten the laces at all. If they were any smaller I doubt I'd be able to get my feet in them. I'm definitely not swimming in them, but your point is well taken. I guess there is a VERY narrow range of lace tension adjustment between too loose and too tight.

[Horton]

Reflex, Edge, and HO Syndicate all use the same release mechanism. The biggest difference is the fit of the shell and the liner. From a safety point of view they are basically the same.

[slow]

If you want to go low maintenance Bd aren't very techy, vapor is the way to go

[OldboyII]

@amnesia I am somewhere in your level/age segment.

Moved to hardshell this spring and immediatelly upgraded my performance. Enjoyed till august when very rare type of fall happened - flat twisting ski move without heel lift. Boot released but too late.

Binding adjustment was Ok - dry land release test that morning was super soft. After skiing release needed much stronger force. Can only guess - why?

My season is over and next season I will move back to soft or semisoft shell.

Vapor release looks for me reliable - there are two sliding surfaces: shell-liner & liner-foot.

I will wait when/if inductry standards for mechanical release will take place (same like in alpine ski).

I want to point that it is not about that hardshell is not safe, moreover it proves that it is very safe option.

This is only my personal experience with very rare situation, and my leg and knee will not stand another one.

 

This summer I was skiing with senior lady who consistenly on16 meters rope and ocasionally on14 meters, she is in open toe soft boot and does greate. It was embarassing for me to be next to her in hardshell with my level ))

 

 

[ScottScott]

MOB is one of the few that will release with that twisting in addition to heal or toe lift. Worth checking out. That is what I am leaning toward when I make that move. It will work on a variety of hard boots.

[mmosley899]

@ScottScott it also works with the soft fit or semi hard boots from all the major ski manufacturers.

[david_quail]

I'm watching this thread closely. I've skied on open toed, lace up bindings up until now (my only 2 years skiing). I've crashed every which way possible, and I've come out of my bindings nicely each time I should have. Never felt any ankle pain since they felt like they came off plenty early.

I tried a hard shell (HO Syndicate) for a weekend this summer and had a crash where I came out, but it felt really late, and while there was nothing major, I limped around for the rest of the day. I reckon it was one of these rare twisting falls.

 

Everyone I talk to says the reflex/HO style release system is the safest,, but it doesn't quite match my limited experience. I'd like to make the switch to the syndicate but am curious to hear from others.

[Deanoski]

@david_quail the release was 1/4 1/2 turn to tight if It tweaked your ankle!

 

ALSO Goode/ reflex system uses the reflex release!!

[david_quail]

@Deanoski I'm definitely going to set them a bit looser next time. That said, it already set it looser than was suggested by my weight/speed. I reckon it was just one of those weird falls.

[mmosley899]

@david_quail there is nothing rare about a twisting fall in water skiing.

[BraceMaker]

@david_quail - I'd not be too reliant on the numbers on the scale vs. height/weight/speed. I've had settings on silvretta vary considerably in regards to the number in the window versus the perceived effort in disengagement of the shell.

 

Since the boot itself is structural - it is under pressure from the release up against the toe bar/hoop/loop - the change in how the boot is worn is going to create a variable in the release tension. You have to test the tension with the boot on your foot tensioned how you like to wear it - and this may require you to dial up or down on the tension to get a release effort acceptable to you.

 

@mmosley899 's products are in a different category where the boot itself has very little to do with the adjustments on the release itself. So long as it fits your foot securely the release is only experiencing the lift/twist force of the plate.

 

 

[Horton]

Let me say something that is going to be unpopular

 

If you are at a level of skiing where you crash more than once a month then you should likely not be in hardshells and whatever bindings you are in should be pretty loose. If you can not get out easy on the dock without unlacing or loosening something then you are in the wrong binding.

[OldboyII]

Looks like good transition to hardshell - decent lateral support, yet simple and easy to use:

 

[malski64]

I find myself laughing because I am agreeing with Horton… But in my view he's right on point. Having broken, twisted ankles, and torn Achilles, I can say that ankle injuries to happen and in about any type of binding. Stay on the loose side with the binding and work on being balanced over the ski and in the long run you're safer and better skier.

[david_quail]

@Horton Wow. Do high end skiers really only crash about once a month?

I'm clearly not one of them, but have skied with folks who run 32+ regularly. They're no pros, but that's pretty decent. And they seem to take way more tumbles into the lake.

EDIT - and I'd define a "crash" as anything that causes you to let go of the handle. Not just major OTFs ...

[OldboyII]

Intensively skiing in Alps approx 40-50 days in winter season (not little).

Never had major problems caused by ski bindings. That is what I would call "safe bindings".

Can not understand why major ski manufacturers cannot sit together, agree and develop industry standards. That will attract more people in the water sports.

[Horton]

@david_quail I define a crash as any time there is a lot of force on the body or there is a bounce or other stress on the body. If there is no danger then it is not a crash. Personally I crash maybe once a year and I would hope that is normal for guys who run 32 off or shorter.

[DanE]

 

[david_quail]

@Horton gotcha. Makes sense. Under that definition, I still have a ways to go before I crash once a month. But I'm close, rather than an order of magnitude off.

 

I guess this photo would qualify as a crash by any definition(not me, but a ski buddy)?

 

 

Should belong in the other "this is why we have Internet" thread but can't help putting it here now.

[BraceMaker]

Walk around in those ski boots much?

 

[sunvalleylaw]

@BraceMaker , I think you are talking about snow ski boots and bindings? I always put the boot condoms (rubberized sole protectors) on mine to preserve proper operation of the binding and boot interface.

 

I don't have hard crashes once a month, but I do crash occasionally, and doubt that going hard shell is the right thing for me. I don't really know the standards for water ski releasable bindings. They might be fine. But I have no real way to know. And at my level, I personally choose the rubber (T-Factors in my case) based on a similar thought process as @Horton states above, even if I don't crash hard that often. I am currently increasing boat speed, and will be shortening line lengths which will increase cross course speed, and quicken up the timing of everything. So arguably there is an increasing risk.

[BraceMaker]

@sunvalleylaw more so that downhill boots are so much more restrictive of ankle motion than would be permitted by a waterskier. It is a different animal, you don't see the ankle injuries in downhill boots but you do see ACL tears and tibial fractures. The boot protects the ankle.

 

We use boots that specifically do not protect the ankle for waterskiing. However even low rubber boots can snap a leg. Its just about not doing stupid stuff when skiing.

 

 

[Lovell]

There are inherent risks in water skiing, just like every other sport. Those inherent risks clearly include serious ankle/Achilles injuries. You don't have to "crash" to suffer such an injury. last year, I tore my Achillles in a fairly benign fall when I hit 4 ball on a fairly easy pass for me. I was in a Wiley's. I have switched to a Reflex and have not skied much this year, but I feel far more confident about my safety in the Reflex, but I have not crashed yet. I think that crashing should be in frequent or you are not training correctly.

[moski]

I've been looking for new ski and boot system. Mine are both outdated. Anyway, I'm with @ScottScott I'm leaning towards the MOB boot system with a rtp.

[amnesia]

Wow! Thanks for all the great discussion on this most critical issue.

 

I guess the hard shell option isn't as "cut and dry" as I was led to believe. The fact that they look like/are snow ski bindings led me to believe that they are as safe as snow ski bindings. I'm a double black diamond snow skier for over 30 years and have never injured my knee (or ankle) despite some spectacular crashes (I did however fracture my humerus with a stupid pre-release). A properly adjusted/tested snow ski binding should never torque your ACL. I suppose I will stay in my lace up soft shells for now and ask Jon Travers what he thinks when I'm in Orlando next month.

 

I don't think I could trust a binding that only released in one axis. I spend my working days in the operating room looking after the poor suckers with torn ACLs, achilles tendons, fractured ankles, and other "freak" injuries - and would prefer to stay off "the table" myself.

[BraceMaker]

Negatory @amnesia Snow ski boot article

 

With your background you might like this -

[amnesia]

Amazing article BraceMaker!

 

Just goes to show how much engineering goes into safely holding a boot onto a snow ski. I wonder how much of this thought process goes into water ski bindings such as an elastic lace like my featherlites, or even a hard shell release mechanism like Reflex. Statements like: "All bindings on the market have tension adjustments that are standardized to the scale specified by DIN" don't seem to apply to water ski bindings as far as I can tell

[david_quail]

Lots of good stuff in the thread! Im still undecided.

Seems the biggest knock against hardshell is the "twisting" fall, where there's only twisting force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in trouble regardless of what binding you're using in this situation. In my lace up vector bindings, I'm not magically going to pop out if all I do is twist my foot. I need that combined with some pressure to lift the heal.

[amnesia]

Hmmm. Good point. Lets see what the experts say.

[eleeski]

@BraceMaker Interesting article.

 

Kneebindings are a bit controversial among serious snow skiers - but that might be more due to personalities involved than real issues with the binding. Kneebindings are heavier and more expensive than other bindings. But @Krlee uses them and is "the best skier on the mountain".

 

Old school Spademann bindings had a reputation for safety and were widely used. But not still in business.

 

The exciting advances in snow ski bindings is with backcountry equipment. Interestingly not constrained by other standardization - but they are standardizing.

 

Snow skiing, I've been injured by pre release and a boot top fracture. Worse injuries than my waterski injuries. I'm not ready to jump on the snow ski binding love train.

 

My broken hip waterskiing happened pulling out for the gates with no fall or form break. A broken trick release damaged my knee. A weird slalom ski design (double fins) sprained my ankle. Sure, waterski bindings seem a bit experimental but they do a pretty good job of keeping a fragile aging ski population going.

 

There is lots of quality development going on in waterski bindings. I'm playing with some ideas that work well. @Than_Bogan is researching. Craig Gates is brilliant and has a cool Achilles safety device that actually works. Mike from MOB has a working setup that might be the safest. FM sells great stuff with good results and has been around for a while. The Goode velcro system might be the most elegant engineering solution and is widely used for a very long time. Radar boots might be the numbers leader - for good reason. Reflex dominates tricks. Every jumper uses Wileys. Lots of good options.

 

Better than any mechanical device, workout to protect yourself. Wall sits and quad tighteners strengthen the knees. Stretch and do yoga so you have enough range of motion to avoid tears. Lose a few pounds. Crunches, sit ups and ab work to strengthen your core. Stay fit. Every day! This won't prevent all injury but it is guaranteed to help. (Yes, I do it every day.)

 

Eric

[ScottScott]

@david_quail MOB releases with a twisting force.

[Chef23]

@amnesia John Travers is likely to recommend the Edge binding or the HO as it is his design. It is based on a Reflex release with better foot connection.

[OldboyII]

Due to august crash my season is over and I have a plenty of time for brainwork (and beer) ))

Psychologically I cannot trust Silvretta any longer whereas I still have nice, comfortable performance shell.

Just made experimental modification of HO shell in FM style: removed buckles and replaced it with laces: static in lover section and elastic in upper cuff (Edge/HO shell has laces holes under buckles).

Locked deadly heel release, mounted on ski and made a lot of dry land release tests.

It works fine. Also mod with lower buckle and elastic laces on the top works well. Twisting motion also releases foot from boot. Lateral support is better than in my open toe boot. Problem with pre-release also will not be an issue because it allows short moments of heel lift.

Generally setup looks pretty safe. Going to make field tests next spring.

Disclaimer: it is just brain work and not advise to do this modification :D

(Because I know position Boss of the BOS towards playing with production of supporting companies)

[Horton]

@OldboyII My problem with boot modification is all about safety. IF your design or how other readers understand your design results in injury I am legally liable. That is why I always discourage modification of the stock products. It has nothing to do with who is and who is not an advertiser. I also strongly discourage any binding mod that I personally believe is dangerous. My experience is greater then your experience and I do not apologize for that.

 

If you have basically taken an HO system and made it work like a FM system I guess that could work pretty well but why not just use the FM system. FM (not an advertiser) has built and sold a lot ot systems so they should have worked the bugs out.

 

[amnesia]

"Generally setup looks pretty safe" not sure if I like the sound of that. Definitely wouldn't fly in my line of work!

[amnesia]

Hey Horton.

 

Thanks for all the great discussion. I'm curious what you think about david_quail's comment. He kinda has a point:

 

""twisting" fall, where there's only twisting force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in trouble regardless of what binding you're using in this situation. In my lace up vector bindings, I'm not magically going to pop out if all I do is twist my foot. I need that combined with some pressure to lift the heal."

 

Ultimately, I only want what's the safest. Is there an inherent problem using a "high end" setup like Silvretta with hard shells when I'm an intermediate skier (not skiing as fast or aggressively as an advanced skier, but on the other hand much more likely to fall - possibly in unusual ways)?

[eleeski]

I'm allowed by @Horton to modify stuff because I'm quite crazy. Do not do what I do at home!

 

@OldboyII I have played with clips and laces over the foot. For my unusual shaped foot, static laces worked poorly. The tension was much harder to replicate consistently and I tended to overtighten them. I'm pretty sold on clips over the foot.

 

Getting an elastic replacement for the top clip is a real challenge. On my current experiment, I have had one proper release and broken my boot 3 times to release. Good thing I stretch and do quad tighteners. Proceed very carefully.

 

Heel lift is the worst thing for performance and feel. And possibly safety. The foot movement will confuse the release parameters and might not work as needed. Getting rid of heel lift is possibly my biggest boot goal.

 

The factory boots and bindings are well engineered as a system. Nothing can prevent all injuries but if things aren't right the injuries could be worse.

 

Confidence is an issue. A change might be in order. Check out other systems. FM does make excellent systems - worth a look.

 

If the experiment is the fun part, accept a higher risk. You will make lots of mistakes but you will learn a lot. Hopefully without serious injury.

 

Eric

[OldboyII]

Horton, 200% agree!

I did a disclaimer, by the way.

This is my experiment with myself.

Not to invoke anyone to repeat. Another person can take other type of laces or apply different tension and get catastrophic result - plastic shell has no elasticity therefore very sensitive to mistake with laces/tension.

 

Whereas industrial product is result of lot of tests and uses uniformed parts and design.

 

My reason is that HO shell/liner has unparalleled fit for my foot and I'd like to keep it (mostly for very cold water)

Also do not advise to follow this experiment

 

 

[Glydon]

@OldboyII where did you get your static laces ? I am having a hard time finding replacements here in Canada. All seem to be bungie. Thanks in advance.

[OldboyII]

amnesia, for two years I was skiing in HO Animal with replaced stock laces to elastic ones (OMG, modification again!) and had quite a few spectacular crashes thanks to wakeboarding environment and mostly rough water on that spot. Never had any issue.

Moreover in truth for my level (I am in your league) I presume animal with not over tightened laces gives me a lot of room for further progress. No matter of my brain work & experiments , Animal certainly will be my boot for nearest future. Here they say - never look for better if you have good ))

[OldboyII]

@eleeski thank you for comments, thinking on the same length of wave!

@Glydon for static option I took laces set with lock for snowboard boots (waxed & water resistant)

[amnesia]

OldboyII. I was perfectly happy with the Stokers on my Connelly FX. Always came out when I should have. Hate to give up my Vectors though - they match the Senate so nicely (fluorescent green - ughh!). Maybe i'll sell the whole setup and buy a SUP and supplement with actual adrenaline. Much safer in the long run!

[OldboyII]

@amnesia after crash I'm spending the rest of the season on SUP, and having a lot of fun. Lost 5 kilos paddling )

My apologies for lot of off topic in your thread )