My Proposed Fix and Growth for Tournaments

[skibug]

Moved this from another thread where it was deemed "off topic"....and it was for that thread.

 

Wouldn't it be so much simpler to get rid of most of the rules and just say:

go whatever speed you want

make the driver a part of the competition (maybe you bring your own and it is a team thing, driver ranking, etc.) and allow them to "help" the skier, boat guides are just for reference.

get rid of needing to go through the start and end gates (relative to the skier, still need them for the boat ZO/gps speed)

get around as many buoys as you can at the shortest line length possible

 

This would actually expand the competition pool, bringing in the top amateurs to the mix. Making it a driver/skier team thing would expand the number of participants at tournaments, etc.

 

I would consider myself an above average skier; but, I will never ski in a tournament. I consider myself an advanced driver (I can pull skiers through 39 off) and would entertain participating as that element of a team.

 

I would also propose you can run any line length as many times as you want; but, you only get a maximum of 6 passes. If you fall on a repeat rope length you are done. So for example, you could go 28, 32, 35, 38, 38, 39 - done! If you ran the 39 you would not get a shot at 41, this is where the strategy comes into play.

 

Bring on the haters for us innovators!!

[lpskier]

I think the promo boat guys might have an issue with this idea.

[skibug]

@lpskier , why? too many passes? too many drivers? So make it 5 passes total. I would guess the average numbers a passes per skier at a tournament is 3 to 4. Drivers would obviously need to be rated.

[Than_Bogan]

New sports (and that is clearly a new sport) always start out with a short list of simple rules. Then the gamers (like me) start to play and the rules get complicated...

 

Under those rules, I can run 75 off. I'll be sitting in the boat, of course, but there's no rule against that. And the driver will be helping me rather a lot, as he transports me around the buoys...

[BraceMaker]

Be a fiasco having drivers and boat crew in and out of the boat and honestly I think having to provide one at a tournament would be even more limiting in terms of attendance.

Hey you're up, wait wait my drivers not here yet.

Also your driver is going out cold and if you've driven private sites some have quirks you need to know like where to drop the skier so you don't ground your prop.

[thager]

Sign up online. Pay via Payypal. Stay home on the couch and get your certificate/ trophy via text. Share with friends on social media!

[markn]

Perhaps I am getting old and crusty, but how is what you describe a "tournament"? Currently in a tournament, the course has entrance and exit gates, the boat path is defined and controlled with end course video, the "score" is achieved by buoy count and hence the ranking. Each division is typically driven by the same driver....same conditions.

Your proposal would be the antithesis of current tournament protocol described above.

Certainly agree your concept might entice more skiers to participate in an event, but in my view, this would not be a tournament as they are currently defined. It could be a very fun event, but not a tournament per say.

I too do not like to witness the slow demise of the sport, but an analogy would be playing a round of golf where you could tee off anywhere, putt on a green with a 2 foot diameter hole and play the hole over again. Yes, you are on a golf course and having fun, but you are not playing the game of golf as defined by the established and respected rules of the game.

 

[APB]

Isn’t that called skiing with your buds?

[BraceMaker]

Trouble enough getting good boat bath drivers to begin with not going to drag someone down to drive me. Let alone imagine the starting dock fiasco of swapping boat crews and expecting drivers to know the lakes and turn islands.

 

Just have 4 sets but score till the first miss.

 

People can always go out slower, and shorter slow is more fun to watch than 4 cracks at 15 off.

 

Don't look at gates for skiers till say 32 off.

[lpskier]

@BraceMaker I like your gate rule.

[Andre]

I'm very much for the way less complicated\way more fun style of friendly competition but don't want to change the basics rules of waterskiing.

Mulligan on the opening pass each round would be nice and would maybe decide peoples who are on the borderline of joining in...

 

[skibug]

I get where everyone is coming from and enjoy the discussion....

@markn in golf you would still need to go tee to green analogous to all 6 buoys, the distance stays the same whether you have the gates or not. One might argue the gates would still be used as a reference and critical to set up the pass. You can tee off from where ever you like in the tee box as long as long you are behind the markers.

@Than_Bogan not the point and not a new sport, just new rules, like changing the PAT if the NFL. You know slalom skiers and they are always trying to run the most buoys at the shortest line lengths possible. I highly doubt your scenario would materialize.

[Than_Bogan]

You highly doubt that someone would try to win within the rules!??

[MrJones]

Without clearly defined and consistent parameters you do not have a "sport". If not, you can have something that's fun to do, but you might as well just take a vote on who had the biggest spray and call it good.

[skibug]

I don't understand some of the comments. The "sport" of getting around 6 buoys at the shortest line length is still the ultimate measure.

 

When competitive slalom skiing started, way back when, were there entrance and exit gates from inception? I don't know the answer to that, just curious. People have discussed and made suggestions for alternate gate rules or eliminating the entrance gates all together.

 

There are many discussions about what the "ultimate" speed may be in order to run 43 off and it might not be 36 or 34; and it probably will vary by skier as well. We already adjust fins and bindings to optimize performance, why not optimize speed.

[BraceMaker]

@skibug it seems to me that the "open" class OM OW would be where skiers could be given the ability to ski any speed ++.

 

Speed divisions and age divisions in less open then a speed or faster.

[dave2ball]

@skibug the issue with bring your own driver and promo boats is the driver is not vetted. He maybe clueless and giving him what amounts a100k boat to drive not knowing his abilities and the layout of the lake will just ne a huge disaster for all involved. Not a good idea.

[skibug]

@dave2ball , I mentioned a few comments down they would have to be a rated driver. And in terms of coordination issue other have mentioned, you can rotate boats with a skier and driver ready at the dock, would probably speed things up.

 

Just thinking outside the box. The sport is dying. If everyone thinks that tournament participation will help save it, then change it. Because it is obvious the current format is not resuscitating it. What is that definition of insanity again........?

[Horton]

@skibug I appreciate your desire to go way outside the box but I think you may have taken creative thinking a few steps too far

[Horton]

Oh, and gates have been part of slalom course for over 60 years. I'm unaware if there was ever a time when the slalom course looked anything like what we have today except it didn't have gates.

[Justin]

Allowing multiple falls is a start, hard to convince people to spend a full day or weekend at a tournament when the chance of 1 miss or fall can end your day or weekend.

Next is speed control, start by having 1 setting, 1 type of pull for every skier...

Simplify things maybe?

[liquid d]

Fun talk while drinking alcohol, but when you can run a slalom course at 41 on a trickski at 20mph, it's not a slalom tourney.

[Ilivetoski]

Stop screwing with speed control. We do not need to go back to perfect pass. I can only imagine the hell that would cause. That being said, they need to stop making updates only compatible with a small portion of the boats that people have. If single puck will be the end all be all, and everyone can get all the updates from here on out, great. But I don’t see that happening.

 

I believe one big issue with tournament attendance is marketing. Most of the people who regularly ski tournaments on this site ski primarily at private ski lakes. I am included in that group. If I mention a tournament to a skier who I know skis at the nearest public lake, they never have any idea about it.

 

If you’re going to throw a party, you don’t just buy beer, turn the music up one night, and hope people decide to come. You let people know. I have to admit, I don’t know the best way to fix this. Flyers at local boat dealerships & pro shops is about all I have come up with other than the obvious “just tell the skiers who probably don’t know about it.”

[buski]

As another decent (can run 34/28 off on a good day) skier who's never been to and probably never will go to a tournament, I get where the suggestions are coming from at least. I don't know why I'd drive 2+ hours to the nearest site(s), probably whiff my gates or first pass to then just hang out and drive back vs. a full day skiing with my kids, friends, their families, etc. It might be different if I lived in FL or somewhere with a lot more access.

 

@skibug

 

1 - any speed you want - has been somewhat addressed with zero based scoring (zbs). Funny name but it lets you shorten the rope at whatever speed you want and the scores are adjusted.

 

2 - will never happen but that doesn't seem like a big barrier for me really.

 

3 - I would be lying if I said gates weren't big in my mind as a reason I barely want to bother. I only get on the water maybe twice a week if I'm lucky and would rather just ski than practicing gates. I hit them sometimes, miss them more often than not, and don't feel the need to compete/for validation enough to bother about it. I really liked Gordon's idea a while back on the entry gates (but that mostly amounts to just not having to count them). Exit are fine as is to me.

 

4 - Most tournaments with a grassroots entry have a minimum pass # but it's usually 4.

 

Again, areas with a ton of access/tournaments are probably different, but for us decent skiers in areas where the nearest tournament is hours away, I could drone on and on about all the reasons why I don't feel like making the effort, or how much of a mountain competing is for skiers not already at least somewhat in the know, but don't really have many suggestions as to what would change my mind.

 

I mean I know some sort of standards are required, and access being tough is just the nature of the beast, but compare skiing in a tournament to the 'local' competition level of almost any sport. Take volleyball, if I go to a tournament it basically is a day of "playing with my buds" but we get to compete against other teams, maybe win a t-shirt, and get in a full day of playing for $40 or whatever. If I can get in a day of skiing with my buds at home and compete against each other/ourselves it's pretty hard to want to go drive 2+h to miss a few passes and drive home.

 

Some online only leagues/ladders seem like a way to get people interested, "competing", and could use those somehow towards getting them out to a real tournament, but you guys would be so concerned about someone making scores up that it'd require so much overhead/daily course surveys/video/special judges/signed affidavits of witnesses/oaths signed in blood to verify the scores. Why bother.

 

Or I don't know some standardized framework for a handicapped tournament that local clubs/groups can use on their own that could also feed some online aggregation of the tournaments just for fun. And maybe people just having fun and relaxing instead of about worrying if jonny from nevada's 35 off is as legit as yours. I dunno.

[The_MS]

You cannot allow multipul falls as your day long event would turn into a 2 day event or you would have to have less skiers. Less skiers won’t work for funding.

 

[BraceMaker]

@MS has to be a happy medium. Maybe you have a 4 pass minimum but if the skier rejects from their ski they swim to shore and their name goes to end of running order for the make up passes.

 

You can then draw a line above those and only run them if time permits.

[Edbrazil]

Chet Raley had an idea about the starting gate that I also endorsed. After passing the 55m pregates, the skier must be on the 2-4-6 side of the course, before cutting for # 1. No need to go through the gate itself. Would simplify things a lot if adopted: no need to video and/or judge the start gates. Endgates would remain the same as before. Thinking of eventually making it a Rule for all classes, but initially it would be an option for just Class C events. Thoughts: yes, some skiers would go very 'early', but that would be longer line and/or novice skiers. Top skiers might go a couple of feet 'early'. When the shortened endgates came during the 1960s, us dubbers thought it made the course harder, but high-level skiers (into 30 off) welcomed the change. At a lineoff like 30 off, they would have to cut through the wakes, and do a double-turn to get # 1. Bounce, run straight, and then turn at # 1. Chet's idea got shot down by the Rules Committee, a few years back, but maybe it is time for another try.

[Justin]

@MS Every tournament I've attended there is more than enough down time during the events. Don't think it would be to difficult to squeeze in an extra fall per skier or minimum amount of passes, it's no different than stopping after every pass to shorten ropes for accomplished skiers. What if every skier ran down the line and had to shorten after every pass? I'm sure there would be enough time...

[BraceMaker]

Unfortunately falls take way more time than do line changes, even if they don't lose the ski you typically have to pull them up to the end and drop again. Hence my swim to shore and go on the end of the list idea, it works like a cable park that way, you can fall with minimal disruption to timing.

 

It also has the consequence of keeping the attendance higher - you fall but are going to ski again so you have to stick around for the rest of your passes. As is many of these people will start to pack up and take off. Which if I know I can get another crack at it you can stick around.

[The_MS]

30 skiers at 7 minutes average per skier is 3.5 hours a round. That’s 10.5 hrs.

[ALPJr]

@Edbrazil Bring back -30 off. Fav' loop on my InTow rope.

[Justin]

3 rounds sounds a little long winded. That alone would hurt attendance.

[The_MS]

I will only attend 3 round events. I know most Slalom skiers will only attend the 3 rounds.

What is the purpose of skiing after falling if not in practice? Your score ends when you fall. Is there a second group that scores as such?

[ntx]

@Justin 3rd slalom are the most popular format in most parts of the country. We usually have between 30 -35 skiers. It is definitely a FULL day and MUST be run VERY efficiently to get it done in a single day.

[Horton]

If more loosely run tournaments with mulligans was the key then INT would be growing and thriving.

[escmanaze]

@skibug "The sport is dying"

 

Does anybody know if this is actually true? Maybe the local amateur competition level of the sport is shrinking, I think the numbers are there to prove that, but it seems to me that the sport is healthy and just fine. Lots of hikers, mountain bikers, skateboarders, and video gamers in the world, and yet the % of those who participate in some level of local, organized competition is very low.

 

I really don't think it's fair to say that the sport is dying just because we all choose to waterski with family and friends on our own boat during a nice day on the lake instead of choosing to pay $100 per person entry fee to spend most the day sitting on the beach waiting for our one special turn where we might get 4 or 5 passes in on a good day. I take the exact same perspective toward my mountain biking, skateboarding, snowmobiling, snow-skiing, wakeboarding, wakeskating, raquetball, tennis, and basketball. I'm looking for recreation, not competition - that doesn't necessarily mean any of the sports mentioned are dying.

 

I'm not interested in waterski tournaments in the current format, and I would be even less interested in tournaments under the rules proposed in this thread.

 

Now if there is some market research data that says that sales numbers year over year have been going down for a decade or two in regards to waterskis or ski boats or ski ropes then maybe we have something to alarm about. Is that the case? Does anybody know?

[BrennanKMN]

I come from an alpine skiing background so this is sometimes interesting to me.

In alpine slalom if you miss the gate you're done, if you fall you're done, if you don't cross the plane of the gate you're done. You get one pass and you're done. I am sure there are leagues or something where there are more 'chances' to ski, but I haven't heard of many people skiing those.

I used to ski competitively all the time, but I got tired of waiting around for my run and all the hoopla around it. I'd much rather spend my time practicing in the course with a few buddies trying to better ourselves.

 

Ya'll are trying to change the rules to make it work. If you do that you'll be changing rules every year forever trying to get more people. Rules are rules - that is how the sport is played. The rules are not the issue.

Personally, I think it's a perception or possibly format issue. I don't have an answer on how to change it, but I can say the rules are not what are keeping me from skiing a tournament.

[vernonreeve]

Are the INT League tournaments still around? They were fun, and allowed you one fall. They put people into similar ability groups, and if you did too well, you got bumped up to the next group. Lots of fun extras, like the wide ride division.

[unksskis]

The biggest obstacle in my opinion holding tournaments back are the required number of officials, and the requirements that come with even holding a rating. Eliminate the amount of required officials (humans) required to even hold a tournament. Implement and utilize technology to make it easier, more efficient, and require less man power.

 

I've come to the opinion that those who don't go to tournaments, likely never will. If everything was made just the way they requested, they'd still find a reason not to attend. "Down time" can easily be filled with volunteering and judging. Competitive skiing isn't a video game where you get as many chances as it takes, and can restart if you messed up.

[dave2ball]

@skibug I agree the sport is dying. Thinking outside the box is something that is needed. I don’t know how long you have been skiing the course or tournaments but I have been doing this for over 40yrs. I see many issues that are hurting the sport that were not issues in the past. That may be contributing the the death. . First and foremost the access to slalom courses on public waterways. The DEP in many states have just about make it impossible to get a slalom course in and permitted. The cost of current boats and the way USA waterski treats older models as unable to use after a certain amount of years.

Briing own driver maybe something that would work if they are rated and so forth. I think the skier may get the short end of that deal just because it generally takes a driver a pass or 2 really get used to the boat that is towing the event.

How about never made tournaments or handicapped head to head or even teams events. we need to bring the fun back.

 

[Justin]

@ntx @MS What I am getting at is introducing ''new'' skiers and spectators to the sport to make it grow. If you are getting 30 + local skiers to your tournaments thats great. But I'm guessing they are made up of mostly club members, kids of club members etc. Not new blood. The biggest complaints I've heard over the years regarding tournaments and newer skiers who tried to compete is the lack of site familiarization and only 1 fall / miss. Drive an hour or so to the tournament site, wait on a dock, boat pulls up throws you a rope, hit it and go, then fall or miss and you're done for a few hours. It can be an unwelcoming feeling for a newb or non club member. I think that culture needs to change but thats a club by club issue maybe.

The first tournament I skied in the early 90's was awful, not a sole talked to me on the starting dock, the boat hit so hard out of the hole I barely made it up lol, cleared the water from my eyes pulled out and fell on 1 ball, and my day was done. Took me a while to gain the nerve to go back. I think this happens more than not. Skied many tournaments since just to measure myself, but our core group has opted out and prefer to battle it out on our home lake and take as many passes and falls as we like, no pressure, no cliques, just laughs.

Just observations, don't really have the answers.

[BraceMaker]

It may be that usaws needs to put on 2 or 3 beginner tourneys per state per year entirely paid for including the daily membership and with gear and advertise it heavily at marina sporting goods Facebook etc. See what happens

[Bongo]

Man, we had a fun tournament in Columbia, MO this past weekend. ~40 slalom skiers, 5 to each team, 8 teams. Handicapped. Each skier's baseline was 6 buoys below their 12-month PB. Some had never skied, so PB was 0....and ~6 teams had skiers with a 0. Every buoy below that baseline on a pass, and took points away from your team. Every buoy above added points. Max of +/- 9 points / skier / round. First two rounds of the tournament were pool play to determine team seeding for the bracket.

 

Once seeded in the bracket team tournament, team-vs-team and skiers went head-to-head on each pass. Each skier had to start two passes below their PB; e.g. 1 @ 32' PB off meant opening pass was 22' off at same speed. Each team captain determined running order of their skiers (team captain always last), without knowing what the other team captain would do. Higher seeded team got to pick either their boat choice, or their order (1st skier off the dock, or 2nd). 1st skier for team one attempted their opening pass and if successful sat down at the other end of the lake. 1st skier for team two attempted to beat their opponent. If both made their opener, came back the other way in the same order. Until someone won...which was never more than 3 passes. Whichever team won first 3 head-to-head competitions moves forward in the bracket. Smack talkin' greatly encouraged.

 

Led to a few great showdowns.

 

Showdown #1:

M4 skier is first skier and runs his 22' off 34mph opening pass. Sits down at the other end of the lake with his tow boat.

B2 (moderately novice) skier runs his required opening pass @ 27mph. Sits down near first skier, points a finger and says "You ain't got nothing on me!".

M4 skier comes back. Just as he's going through the end gates, looks back and motions to the B2 skier: Here, kitty kitty.

B2 skier runs his pass back, dropped in the water next to the M4 skier, and says "Hey ol' man, you are starting to look a little tired."

...

 

Showdown #2:

By random chance, Daughter vs Dad. Win the head-to-head, and their team advances. Yikes! None skiing at their max speed.

Daughter up as the first skier; falls halfway through on her opening pass.

Dad opts to increase speed past his required opener. Barely beats her.

 

Showdown #3:

M4 skier sets his new PB on third pass in the bracket tournament. Gets beat by B2 skier who is still a couple away from his PB and who is getting better each week.

 

Showdown #4:

New B3 skier. Good show skier, but never run a successful 3-event tournament pass. Still doesn't in the team bracket, and looses his head-to-head. But his team advances. So gets another shot. Happy kid. The G3 girls like his curly hair. Just might be hooked.

 

And in the end, you may have to ask @skiinxs how he liked his cheese balls or gummy bears. But his new boat is nice. Very nice. But not red.

 

Bongo

[unksskis]

Focus needs to be on retention first, not attracting new members. USA-WS is losing people faster than they can gain them, and as in business, it's much easier and a better business model to retain than gain.

[The_MS]

@Justin come to Minnesota to ski. We have at least 4 events loaded with family’s that do not live on private lakes. 1/2 are 3 event and all will offer grass roots type of event for novice skiers. Always contact the tourney director to se if they will offer a mulligan but not a score resulting from mulligan. The MWSA events are on Island lake in Minneapolis which is public. Our site in SE minn has not hosted events for the past 2 summers due to issues lining up boats.

[Chef23]

@Bongo we did a handicapped head to head one year and it was a ton of fun. My son knocked me out he was B2 at the time and wound up winning the whole thing he also knocked out a M4 skier capable of running into 39 and a M2 skier running deep 38. He had to run right to his PB in those rounds.

 

We don’t have a lot of tournament sites that set up well for that. The one we did it a was very tight at one end.

[harddock]

Some like competition but can never get points to Nationals level. They get disgusted and drop out. Need to hold interest @ amateur levels

[Jody_Seal]

@unksskis Bingo!

 

A lot of great ideas and concepts being thrown out on this thread, However no one at the top of the leadership reads nor cares.

How to stimulate growth and increase participation has been one that has plagued this sport for many years now ( 20 years?).

 

Right now in the sport particularly areas where higher then class C events are held there is a witch hunt to shame or remove drivers from events. Proof of that can be seen on the southern region web site where the region started demanding that drivers provide end course video from All L&R rounds they drive and submit them to be publicly displayed for anyone to view and criticize . This policy many of us are not complying with and will not. In the southern region it is very hard to get in the boat and drive events of any level, In the southern region alone the average age of a senior driver is over the age of 50! (maybe closer to 60). truly not a fair situation for membership growth when not a one of these older drivers are not allowing the younger drivers to get in the boat or mentoring up and coming drivers.

 

How can a organization spend so much time and resources to propagate membership and then in another twist stifle membership participation / continuation by implementing a policy such as the level 10 mandate? Level 10 requires skiers who are at the top of their game in age group division and mandate them into basically the open / Elite divisions.

Example's: Men 5 jumper who jumps 150' at 32 MPH on a 5 foot ramp is mandated into MM division where a men 3 who jumps near 200 feet at 33.6/or 35 MPH on a 5 and half foot ramp where is the fairness of that?

Aging (working for a living) men 2 jumper 35 mph 5.5' ramp who jumps near 200' is mandated to jump against a elite pro level jumper 21 year old who jumps 220' plus on a 6' ramp !

How can a 60 year old be mandated to slalom against a 35 year old just because that 60 year old is at the top of their age bracket?

 

Bottom line they are running off members faster then they can replace them and personal agendas are what is being implemented and rule the organization.

Would not be so critical but have seen the inner workings first hand and it is rather sickening. When in a national directors meeting presentation of a stupid phone app (that today very few if any use) takes precedent over important rule's and policy consideration and meeting time constraints there is a problem. Bait and switch along with guerilla politics are the norm in these meetings. two weeks out now from the regional summer meetings and the EVP of our region is asking for committee reports that should have been finalized and presented to membership for consideration weeks ago. Going into our federation meetings this week end and our councils have absolutely no or very little information to process and and be directed by membership for vote!

 

Watersking is not dead and far from it. What is dying is the AWSA membership Oh sorry latest reports show we had an increase of 8 members... sorry I blew up!!

Would not criticize with out putting out some ideas of my own..

 

1. repeal the level 10 mandate "or" at least go off of the world rankings lists for inclusion into elite divisions. # 15 on the world rankings list qualifies a skier to world competition of any of the age groups. Also better exemplifies a true balance over the current standards. example: currently top 3% of a division or divisions, Men 1or 2 tricks near 7000 points mandates elite competition # 15 0n the open men's ranking list is 10600. men over 35 slalom #15 is 4@10.75 (currently matches the level 10 mandate).

Men's 1&2 jump mandate is somewhere near the 190 mark, #15 in the world is 65.7 meters or 213'. For women and men 4 and up rather then mandate might want to ask them to decide and declare which divisions they will ski in and make them stick with it for a year. currently not a good situation and the policy was knee jerk reaction to some whiny influential vocal women slalom and men slalom skiers who felt they were cheated out of a national medals due to ex-Elite skiers skiing in their age group (Boise). Bottom line inclusion into elite level division should be a choice rather then a mandate.

 

2. knock off with the Anal attitudes and direction in the sport. reminder those men who ran the 41's in Spain did it under true competition and with a full field of competitors and for the money!!

We have to stop criticizing every trials type weekend tournament where skiers ski well. we have stop with the driver witch hunts and start mentoring, educating and including drivers into events. We need more Championship type events and less trials type tournaments.

 

3. Time to drain the swamp! (sorry cliche) just look at the leadership in the sport and many or most have been in control of either their respective state, regional and national leadership roles far to long. Time to "mandate" term limits from the very top on down. Time to encourage younger skiers to step up and take on more leadership roles with in the organization.

 

4. Transparency with in the leadership and leadership communication. Why not mandate web cast for all the national Directors meetings and National USAWS Meetings? This would put an end to most of the B.S.!

 

 

I could add another 5 pages of rant but bottom line is growth starts with realistic policy's and goals, Transparency, acceptance and on time communication.

[Booze]

@Jody_Seal - Ditto that on...

 

"We have stop with the driver witch hunts and start mentoring, educating and including drivers into events. We need more Championship type events and less trials type tournaments."