Compressed or Straight Legs?

[matthewbrown]

The fact that Lucky Lowe’s legs are straight in that picture, has no relevance to the main issue that his ski is too far out in front of him. He’s pushing with his legs, leaning back and shooting his ski which leaves him zero platform to lean against in the edge change.That is his offside cut which as mentioned before in this thread is going to automatically lead to straighter legs.

Nate’s legs on his offside are nearly that straight but he is centered completely on top of his ski. Straighter legs leads to higher hips which leads to slower and easier transitions. There is a difference between straight legs and pushing with your legs as I think @UCFskier skier is eluding to.

[ScottScott]

Yes, compressed position doesn't mean you arent resisting. Think of standing with your feet in a similar position as when skiing, but youre in a tug of war with someone where the pylon is.....youd probably be in a pretty compressed and stacked position. The "athletic position" in pretty much ANY sport starts with knees bent, or compressed. The key is to do it without looking like youre sitting in a chair.....you must also be stacked, with the force of the pull going through your shoulders, through your hips, then down to a spot between your feet. Just becouse bent knees CAN cause a person to get on their back feet doesnt mean you shouldn't try to get in that position with proper stack.

[Cnewbert]

In a forum that often features great discussions, this is, for me, one of the most valuable ever. Mainly because it's highlighting many of the things I do wrong, but perhaps with this information I can start to correct some of my technical errors.

[AdamCord]

@ScottScott I would definitely not recommend that you try and make your offside pull look like an onside pull. At the end of the day, we need to be able to maintain a strong position against high loads and stay in control. Spend some time playing around with a rope tied to a tree and one foot in front of the other, mimicking on and offside pulls. You'll see that you are strongest and most controlled when a little more straight and closed off during an offside pull, and a little more compressed and open in an onside pull. If you try and open up and compress during an offside pull, you immediately lose power and get pulled to the tail.

 

@Wish to your point about lucky 30 years ago, I don't think he would change a thing about what he was trying to do. Yes he could benefit from being more centered on his ski, but that is one screen grab in a tournament, so that may not show what he would look like in ideal conditions. Lucky was very very good at getting connected and holding a strong position. Getting separated was seldom a problem for him. Another skier who looks a lot like that through the center...Jeff Rodgers. And it's safe to say his technique does just fine with ZO and strong boats.

[Wish]

@AdamCord could not agree more. Was just commenting on how he mentioned to me that bent knees was not ideal along with the brochure of his not bent knees pic. I've seen him ski and agree that one screen shot says little. Good call on Jeff R. Still amazed with his skiing style and always have been.

[Terry Winter]

I think it's more important to focus on ankle flexion than knee bend. It's too easy to fall back into a squat when trying to bend the knees. If the ankles are getting flexed forward then the hips are going to be moving forward whether the skier has a more compressed style or a taller style. What's important is keeping the hips balanced over the feet and keeping the hips close to the handle. It's also important to understand that skiing is dynamic, and we're constantly adjusting to what's happening in order to try to maintain balance. I'm going to have a different position through the wakes at '32 than what I have at '41. That will change with different boats as well. The Nautique has a flatter wake and trough than the MC, and hitting that trough can have quite an impact sometimes. If there was no wake or trough I would stay much taller naturally behind the boat.

 

[matthewbrown]

Keeping hips on top of ski and centered is easier done when you are taller and not as compressed just as whisper was talking about and as he perfectly showed in the pics.

[Drago]

 

[mmosley899]

I think @twhisper makes a great point, you can’t be in an athletic stance without ankle flexion. Watch any major league homerun slugger, they cannot hit from their heels, you can’t slalom on your heels either. But your knees can’t be locked out either...

[matthewbrown]

@Drago after endless conversations with Marcus, I can assure you that is the opposite of what he really wants to do.

[Terry Winter]

@Drago You look pretty good in Creed ||

[BraceMaker]

@matthewbrown it's very pervasive with new skiers- who some how think that position relates to running 15 off.

[Drago]

@matthewbrown Totally, we were just talking about it on the ski lift, I had to post that just to get everyone rolling their eyes. @Horton won't even acknowledge my existence on this subject. We can freeze frame almost anyone anywhere in the course to prove our point. I want to feel like the old MB looks -dreads. For me, I hate it when I feel like Lucky looks (both feet forward <- who said that?). I ski because i like the way it feels, so I'm going back to more of a compressed feeling/look through the edge change. I can't ski like Nate. He's impressive, but I just can't do it. I can throw up deep threes on the b-ball court like Curry, but that doesn't make me any better @ b-ball.

@twhisper Thanks bro, I try to keep fit

[matthewbrown]

@Drago I guess I said that the first time I saw lucky ski

[Drago]

@BraceMaker I can't run 15 off

[Horton]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CChULJ8hOFz/?igshid=itcvn33sncce

[mbabiash]

I watched her video though and her back leg is straight only on gate glide and turn in. Rest of the pass it’s bent

[Horton]

@mbabiash it is relative. Nobody's back leg is totally locked out. The more compressed it is the more your your center of mass is back.

[Adam Caldwell]

All I can say is that if you objectively trying to bend your legs, your missing out on some of the magic in slalom.

 

I skied compressed for YEARS. Looks cool. Feels cool. Doesn't work when you shorten the rope.

 

If you want to get better in this sport, stop squatting and start standing.

[ktm300]

@adamhcaldwell What is your definition of "compressed"? Can knees be bent and not "compressed"? Very rarely have I ever seen a skier whose legs are "straight" white water to white water so long as the definition of "straight" means not bent at all. Hard to describe the physical with words...

 

For myself only, I cannot ski with my legs straight...just cannot do it. @twhisper 's point about the load/unload and extra lean/recovering from lean dynamic with straight legs matches what I feel when I ski. Only way to leverage is to lean way over. Why do you disagree with this (if you do)?

 

Why is it not a legitimate part of the conversation to point out skiers who go deep or better 41 with bent legs? The retort is usually something like "well... you're not so and so.." No shit. I ain't Adam Caldwell either. Both comments are non sequiturs.

 

I'm really not seeking validation for my bent knees. I'm just trying to understand what is meant by "straight" and why that is an imperative. And, further, why so very few top level skiers ski with "straight" legs. (or if they are, they are doing so clandestinely and covering it by posting video of running some seriously short lines with bent knees)

 

While I'm asking, another issue where the language is failing me is the notion that the front of the ski should be in the water everywhere. Every video I watch of top skiers, no more than the back third is in the water through the back of the boat if that.

 

Thanks for your continued enlightenment. Much appreciated. Nothing in my email is intended to be snarky; these are questions on which I would love to hear your opinion. You've become our teaching and understanding leader.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@ktm300 - the loads on the ski and the body are insainly high coming out of the turns at 39/41/43. If you want to find out what I am talking about, go home and put it on the 41 loop and see what happens - don't take my word for it - go make an honest effort at it and youll feel it.

 

For me at 39/41, I am focused on getting my legs back as straight as possible before CL because I want my COM as high off the water as possible when the ski transitions. Am I able to do that 100%? No....but I am trying like crazy to get back to a "tall" position. If I don't, then my ass would be on the ski itself at CL, and the transition into the swing is virtually non existent.

 

Biggest mistake in any sport is emulating what you see without understanding whats going on. When you watch top level skiers running 39/41 and try to emulate what it looks like, you are immediately doing yourself a disservice. Watch what they do at 28/32/35. See Nate below. Excessive knee and ankle bend with the intent to compress further under load should not be the goal. Standing tall and proud BEFORE the load comes on the ski/rope/body should be the objective and focus.

 

For me, I don't try to put any of the front of the ski in the water until I reach the top of the swing. The skis rotation and tail slide into the turn will put the tip down. No need to jump forward on the front to try to force it.

 

If you can get your legs even close to this straight, then your doing something right.

 

 

It might not make sense to most skiers, but if we were trying to ski the physics, then we would be aiming to have both the COM and our connection point to the rope/handle as high above the water as possible throughout the transition phase. This allows for the lower body to be able to swing to the widest possible apex at the top of the swing.

 

Fundamentally, this is the reason why skiers that are "tall" have a much greater advantage over us short guys.

[ktm300]

Thanks so much.

 

When I watch the video of Nate, I see bent knees. Not compressing but bent; not straight. Back leg definitely not "straight". I've been reading things too literally...

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@ktm300 The act/effort to extend the back leg (for me) is always happening at just about every phase of the course. When the load is finally off the ski and your body, the extension of the back leg is more visible to the observer. However when the load is on the skier there is some knee bend going on, but the effort to avoid compression and your hips sinking toward the ski is still being made - despite the existence of some margine flex in the knees/ankles.

 

Watch Nates back leg closely a moment before he comes off the handle into the buoy. The back leg gets longer. This elevates the COM into apex and provides potential energy to drop though the finish of the turn with, while at the same time helping to keep your body tracking over the middle of the ski, and not falling onto the tail as the ski exits the turn.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

[UWSkier]

Crazy how much higher on the boat he was at 4 and 6 than 2 there where the bimini strap obscured the view.

[skispray]

@UWSkier I think it’s more likely that the person filming shifted in the seat so that the Bimini strap wasn’t blocking the view of his turn.

[ktm300]

In my mind I'm just going to think of it as not yielding to the load.

 

The semantics can be confusing; at least to me. The video is easier to understand. Reminds me of the common advice to a new skier learning to get up that they should "lean back". That is false. We don't want them to lean back we just want them to resist the pull of the boat so that they don't get pulled forward. I tell them to freeze and not let the boat pull them forward; resist. Is that "leaning back"? For some people, apparently so.

 

My attempts at skiing with "straight" legs are down right funny and pitiful. Slight+ knee bend; can do.

 

As to experimentation, I am afraid to try 41...I'll just watch you do it...and continue to be awed.

[bsmith]

Just curious, @ktm300 now that you realize the expression "straight legs" really means relatively straight legs or more straight then compressed, do you feel like your current stance on a slalom ski is within this extended definition of straight legs?

[rico]

I don't think it really matters as long as your are tall from waist up, your butt won't stay behind and you will keep your connection.

 

Very easy to understand but harder to do in the course :-)

[dbaconaz]

I feel to have more power with stacked straight legs. However feel like I'm more in a bent position when really pulling hard. Would love to hear @JoelHowley point of view!

[Horton]

@rico I started to give you a triple Panda for your previous post. But then I reread it and I have no idea what you are trying to say. Your Pandas are in escrow.

[rico]

What I am trying to say is that this is the very difference between Pro skiers and us mortals. Terry, Freddie, Will... can keep their upper body still, level and proud while bending their legs significantly. Normal people don't know how to do this so we have to keep our legs straight to try and copy what they do.

To me this is how they can be so forward on their ski with a lot of speed and control.

 

Panda away, Panda away...

[Adam Caldwell]

The skier needs to be able to maximize the leverage over the edge of the ski. This doesnt necessarily take just 'straight legs', but an effort to stand up and straighten the entire body, as if you were at the very top of a dead lift pull.

 

Think about it like this. The higher your COM above the ski AND the further out over the edge of the ski, the more leverage you will have to control and pressure the ski.

 

Allowing the hips to sink down closer to the ski dramatically kills your ability to leverage and pressure the skis edge. That being said, there are times where this might be a necessary element to have in your tool box, but its not necessarily what we want to strive for. Especially when considering what we need to do during the 'load' phase in the course.

 

We have to move on the ski in a way that improves both the control and position over the ski and the load in the rope.

[ktm300]

@bsmith Offside I'm good. I'm RFF. Onside I sometimes leave my ass behind me (well, maybe more than just sometimes). I knew straight did not mean straight as I've never seen anybody ski with my definition of straight and have seen some mighty fine skiers with considerable knee bend. Right or wrong, I think the knee bend out of my onside is a means to modulate speed. So far, when I do a really good job of keeping my hips over my feet and not giving an inch to the boat out of onside, I'm going so fast into offside that I can't control it and make a timely turn. Bending my knees out of onside and giving in some seems to be a way to keep the angle without excess speed. That begs the question of whether I am taking too much angle out of onside....hmm?

 

That would lead me to my next big dummy question which is if "there is no such thing as too much speed; just poor direction" why do all skiers have that big honking wing on their ski?

 

One of the best skiers in my state used to tell me to go around the orange ones. While in the water, driver asked about his settings; he said "I don't care about that shit let's go". There is the thinking man and then there is the overthinking man. I tend toward the latter category.

 

I have a ski buddy who taught himself to run 38 and runs it in tournaments. He skied a lot; a whole lot. While he is very smart, he tended toward the "go around the orange ones" approach. I have never run 38.

 

The greatest revelation from Caldwell and Cord to me, is the recognition that we have to be in time with the boat. Can't be outrunning it at apex and expect a tight line. Without the tight line, we ain't going anywhere.

[Horton]

@rico Panda not required. For a second there I thought you had misunderstood every conversation we've had for the last six or seven years. That would really be frustrating since you are kicking my ass this year.

 

When you look at a skier like Fred Winter you are looking at some extremely refined movements made by one of the most talented people who have ever ridden a slalom ski. His mass is forward and he's making amazing speed cross but he's not putting any more load into the rope then necessary.

[BlueSki]

@adamhcaldwell, how does the advice of having “soft feet” play into what you are doing, if at all?

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@BlueSki - Not completely sure.....if your riding a ski that feels like an ice skate, or if anytime you actually pull you immediately are going too fast, then yeah, I can see where soft feet would be applicable.

 

Never hear of 'soft feet' before. Maybe whomever created that term can explain better?

[Andre]

 

I always go back to this pic...

[Adam Caldwell]

@Andre - YEP. pictures speak volumes. Obvious in that picture to see how far his COM extends beyond the skis edge as I was describing above. WAY more then if the knees were compressed and hips move toward the ski.

[Andre]

Since i'm modest, i always Photoshop Parrish's head over my ski photos...

[Horton]

@Andre would it not be better if you pasted your head on Parrish's pictures

[BlueSki]

@adamhcaldwell, I think it was used when a skier tended to try to overload and did not handle the results well. I have never used it personally, but heard it used just recently for the first time that I can recall. I think you covered it by sharing that you never heard it.

[matthewbrown]

As @adamhcaldwell stated the lower your hips the less ability to keep edge pressure which makes complete since and is the reason why standing taller in the transition is ideal. In addition to this, the further the ski is out in front of your COM during the transition regardless of straight legs or not, the more edge pressure you lose. So, you can have straight legs through the transition but if your ski is too far out in front of you it effectively is as if you were squatting through the transition. Jeff Rodgers was notorious for this into his 1,3,5 turn which is part of the reason why he always had huge turns on that side, his ski reached apex too soon as his body fell inside the line closer to the boat. When he got it right and stayed on top of his ski all the way out through the transition, he was pretty much unbeatable. If not for his superhuman abilities he would have never been as great as he was/is. In this picture even though his legs are relatively straight, his COM is not stacked over the ski which through the coming transition, will mimic lower hips.

[matthewbrown]

 

[liquid d]

archimedes said...with a long enough lever, I could lift the world! Stand tall and use your leverage where you can.

[ScottScott]

Now I have to look up Archimedes

[bsmith]

@matthewbrown As a novice course skier and not knowing any better, I would be very pleased to have the body position at CL that you show Jeff Rodgers with. However, you are saying that his COM is not stacked over the ski. To my untrained eye, it looks like his body is linear and pressing directly perpendicular through the center of the ski. Could you show a picture of a skier at CL who has their COM stacked properly over the ski? Just wondering if it will be a very subtle difference from the picture above or something very different.

[Adam Caldwell]

 

 

Interesting picture of Jeff R. If you take into consideration of the angle Jeff’s taking though the gate, he is pretty damn stacked. He isn’t holding heavy/extreme angle like a lot of RFF skiers tend to do. Jeff takes a pretty moderate path through CL. I have learned to do the same. And the 'visial' from the boat can be very misleading as its harder to see the true angle/swingspeed of the skier.

 

If you look from his right shoulder to his front foot you’ll see a dead straight line thats very much near normal to the ski. That means a pretty solid position, and even more solid connection.

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown I've got to push back somewhat on your statement about edge pressure and pushing the ski in front of you. What is edge pressure doing for you through the edge change? And why would pushing the ski in front of you be a problem if you have already generated the needed swing speed to get high on the boat, and you are in a very well connected position like Jeff is in the picture above?

 

There really isn't a need to make it that complicated. Our goal needs to be to create the angle on the gate or in the turn in order to start our acceleration and get our mass swinging as fast as we can around the pylon into the first wake. If you can do that then you need to be able to get the ski out of angle and put yourself in position to stay connected as you swing off the 2nd wake. No edge pressure required. I would argue that pushing the ski in front of you through the back of the boat and off the 2nd wake makes maintaining the connection easier, and also makes it easier to yaw the ski out of angle and get it on the required path.

 

Obviously lots of ways to skin a cat, and some skiers stay a lot more over the ski through the transition behind the boat than others. Personally, I make an effort to push the ski in front of me because it allows me to yaw the ski earlier, and it drives my hips to the handle at a time right when it's very easy to get disconnected.

 

 

[matthewbrown]

@adamhcaldwell agreed on the picture angle of Jeff Rodgers, I could have found a better example. @AdamCord I hear what you are saying about if proper speed is obtained before the wakes and I agree that this should be the goal but, anytime my feet go through the wakes before my shoulders I am losing some of the whip that I have already generated. And not everyone can always generate the speed Adam Caldwell does out of every buoy. If I’m more over the ski through the transition like Andy and Nate I am able to keep my momentum and swing higher up on the boat. More importantly I am better able to keep the ski flatter through the transition when I am balanced. Shooting the ski puts me on the tail of the ski, commits me to an early harder inside edge and makes me smear to early. Maybe what you are talking about is a more balanced position through the edgechange as the ski will always need to be out in front momentarily through the transition, but I would disagree with a conscious effort to shoot the ski as being ideal through the edgechange.