Compressed or Straight Legs?

[Terry Winter]

I had a question on my training web site about whether it is better to ski with a compressed style or keep the legs straighter as the skier approaches the center line of the course. I looked at a few youtube videos...

 

[Texas6]

Great observation, and contrary to what many believe to be optimal. Love it

[eleeski]

Obviously locked straight legs is wrong. But these snapshots don't show what is really going on. They are compressed, yes. But they are pressing out of that compression with the most efficient leg power position possible.

 

For the beginners I coach, it is important to not bend your legs to cross the wake! Do not use your knees as shock absorbers at the wake. Push to resist the wake.

 

Bending your knees at the ball gives you much better control of the ski. Plus you can push out of the turn to better get the optimal body position.

 

Rechecking the OP, I'm probably going to get a Panda now...

 

Eric

[ktm300]

Death to the categorical imperatives...

[Stevie Boy]

Lots of people tell me to stand taller through the wakes, these guy's look fairly compressed to me, I have always thought that you can not take load with out some compression, interesting to see how Chris Parrish compares.

[UWSkier]

@Stevie Boy

 

[mwetskier]

personally, i think the best advice regarding compressed legs is identical to the instructions i once read on a tube of unguent - ' apply as needed".

plus i also like using the word ' unguent '. it just sounds so retro. . .

[Stevie Boy]

@eleeski is there a difference between Pushing and Pressing I have been accused of pushing and told it takes angle away from me, I am happy when I push and lean, every time I try to use less effort as suggested I miss passes.

Old school so not super efficient on the ski but trying to change my ways.

[slow]

Straighter legged skiers struggle more in poor water conditions in my opinion

[elr]

I think the top skiers in the world have crazy athletic skills that allow them to ski compressed approaching the center line. An aspirational position. Conversely those that aren't at that level don't have the necessary front ankle bend and if they think about skiing compressed into the centerline end up with their bottom over the back of their ski. Straighter legs for those skiers is probably better.

[Terry Winter]

Here's my take on the subject...

 

I can understand both sides and feel that maybe both have benefits. I think that staying lower in the cut increases your ability to hold leverage. Standing with straighter legs forces the skier to need to lean more with your shoulders away from the boat which drastically increases the load into the wakes and then, in turn, also makes the skier much more susceptible to getting pulled up and out of that position as they cross the center line of the course. Using more lower body compression allows the skier to maintain a more level and quiet upper body as they approach the center line of the course. Leg compression allows for a quiet upper body not only into the wakes, but more importantly it assists the skier in staying more still as they are swinging outbound off the the wakes through the edge change. I think the compression allows for more leverage being applied through the central part of the body, so the pull is directed more through the hips rather than the pull coming through the shoulders that would result from a taller stance.

 

The part where it goes wrong for many skiers is that with compression can also come a loss of good alignment by the skier allowing the hip joint to bend or squat. The key to being effective with a compressed stance is that the lower back has to remain straight and the compression is happening only through the knees and ankles and not through the hips. As soon as the hips drop back away from the handle then there is a huge loss in leverage and the ability to stay balanced on the ski.

 

For more information like this check out my site https://www.trainwithterrywinter.com/

[Than_Bogan]

[Redacted in light of further explanation above.]

 

But, I still almost feel like you have to learn to really do it right with (relatively) straight legs before you have a hope of doing it right with compressed legs.

[Than_Bogan]

Btw, what stands out to me even more in those still shots is how much those skier's bodies are aligned perpendicular to the ski (creating the illusion that they are leaning forward). Freddie and Nate are extreme in that regard, but even the others are a helluva lot more over their skis than I ever am!

[Dano]

Check out the forward ankle flex common to all those pictures. Less pronounced with Chis Parrish's photo who is skiing with straighter legs. I would think it's much easier to attain a position resembling Parrish's than it is the others. It would also be interesting to know what line length those pictures are taken of, and if they have the same stance at longer lines?

[Terry Winter]

39 and 41 for each image

[Zman]

I think @Horton does good with this, as shown in his pic in the EVO review.

[cragginshred]

Great thread! Straight seems to be more old school too? Or more of a personal style? I am shorter and the bent position seems to work for me

[skibug]

Plus, the pics above are all heel side, which lends itself to being more easily compressed, even for us mere mortals.

[Bainesster]

I'd be interested in seeing if same form is shown at say 28 or 32 off, to me it looks like they are almost being forced into compressed positions because of the difficulty of pass

[lpskier]

Cause or effect? If the boat is going north, the closer the ski travels to true east or west, the more something has to give. The boat is going in a different direction that the ski and the space between the two is trying to increase. As the boat travels down course and the skier tries to go cross course, the power of the boat may simply be squashing the skier. The guys in the pictures above get a lot closer to true east and west than most folks, and therefore may get more squash. Just a thought.

[ski6jones]

I think being compressed is a VERY advanced position. When i ski compressed i feel like i'm constantly modulatimg the load. When i try to ski tall i inevitably compress but it's not a goal. Maybe in the future but for now staying tall is what i want behimd the.boat.

[hemlock]

One aspect I take from the 4 skiers (and Parrish too) is how close the handle is to their bodies.

[ScottScott]

I've heard the term 'compressed" used often. Many like to think of ankle bend but that doesn't really work for me, I can't feel ankle bend. My thought process to accomplish this is to push the knees forward while bending them, if knees go forward....then ankle bends. It also keeps your butt from hanging back. Different triggers to think about work for different people to make them feel what needs to be done. That compressed position is what I'm working toward.

 

I like the way that particularly @twhisper knees are together. You can't have the knees that close without having good alignment.

[Deke]

Agree with you @ScottScott that there is a big difference between "compressed" and "squatting" that is completely lost on some people. Whatever it takes to get aligned for whatever phase of turn, load or transition is what is important. Sometimes what you perceive is not what you need.

[Horton]

I think the problem with this conversation is that although compressed might be superior in the way that @twhisper describes only a handful of skiers on the planet can be compressed without their hips going back.

 

I really really really hate disagreeing with @twhisper because I a firm believer in a meritocracy. In other words guys like me with a PB of a few at 39 - 34mph should generally shut up and listen to guys like TW who have a PB of a few at 41 - 36 mph.

 

To clarify: in the above image of Parrish I would call that pretty straight legs.

 

 

[ScottScott]

Straight vs compressed is relative. No one's knees are perfectly straight. Everyone's knees are bent to a degree, some more than others. What everyone's mind set going in is different, and different mindsets from one person to another can lead to different results. And what someone sees in another may be totally different than what that person is thinking. I see a compressed/bend knee position I would like to emulate in @Horton yet it's well know that he is thinking straight. This also depends on where in the course you are looking. There were pictures of some during the glide before gate turn in, I'm thinking of the position during a cross just before the wake.

[Horton]

@ScottScott Terminology is for sure a problem here.

 

I try to straighten my legs from apex to centerline. Are they ever really completely straight? No.

When I allow myself to squat a little my hips move back and EVERYTHING gets harder.

[bkreis]

knees and hips will change angles based on what the skier does, how much load is going to the ski vs upper body, and the ability to get to stay strong/stacked cross course.

[Horton]

@bkreis I have zero idea what you are trying to say in your last post :- )

[Horton]

Is it warm enough to get back to arguing about skiing?

[Than_Bogan]

No. Outside my window it is 25. And that ain't Celsius. Nice try, though.

[ski6jones]

My legs won't straighten. Too cold.

[jayski]

@ski6jones really??? in the seventies there in the next few days...

 

 

[ALPJr]

Temp 19, feels like 8 here.

[gavski]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but here is a guy that is neither pushing, pressing or leaning..he makes it look effortless

 

 

I believe he might be the 2016 35+ world champion..Ivan Morros

[liquid d]

Work out harder...compress through the wakes and when you get the load. Stand tall when you need the length to get around the ball.

[fu_man]

Clearly I am not going to argue with @twhisper however, I think this photo serves as proof as to why there is confusion about this. This image is Lucky Lowe and his legs look pretty straight. Apologies for the grainy image. It is a screen shot from youtube probably from a VHS tape.

 

 

[Stathis Ventouris]

@gavski it is quite noticeable that Ivan Moros is pressing/pushing with his legs when he meets with the boat at the white wash before the first wake.

[mmosley899]

I think the appropriate term may be “athletic stance”, knees are always bent to some degree, but you are definitely resisting. I used to be able to do it correctly, though somewhat old school...

 

[teammalibu]

Carl? Makes me wanna watch Slingblade!

[ski6jones]

@teammalibu Awesome movie!

 

[AdamCord]

I think there’s some confusion in this thread comparing onside and offside pulls. Your knees will pretty much always be more bent during your onside pull than offside. That’s just the nature of our asymmetrical sport.

 

 

[matthewbrown]

@AdamCord totally agree, going to have more knee bend on good side cut. But, the goal is the same, to stay on top of your ski with your hips, while behind the boat and through the transition. In both pictures above, particularly the onside cut, his hips are back. This is something he has been working on in recent years and has greatly approved upon, probably nobody better at it except Nate. So, my point is you can still muck up your main goal of staying centered on your ski with straight or bent knees.

[The_MS]

No. Another 10 inches this weekend. I hate climate change

[UCFskier]

never ever "straight" . when you coach ppl to ride with a straight leg its interpreted as being locked out! Since the early 90's (yes im wicked old) Ive always said think of being dynamic, able to adapt, and ready to resist. sitck legs result in being pulled up off edge and does not allow the ski to sit in the water during edge change.

 

 

[ScottScott]

@adamcord i have noticed that stepping through videos of Terry and Nate and others, and myself. Do you think its a matter of more comfort on the on side that most people feel allowing more compression, or other factors. Is that something that should be worked on, to get that offside position more like the onside?

[BraceMaker]

@fu_man I'd wonder what Lucky thinks of that screenshot.

 

1990 is closing on 30 years ago. Alpine skis were just getting side cut and people were wearing Neon suits, the boat had 240 horsepower and a carburator being hand throttled.

 

Not sure that he'd instruct a skier to replicate that position now.

 

 

[Wish]

Had Lucky tell me at one of the Orlando Boat shows..a long while back...that bending my knees was unnessiary and asked why I'd ever want to do that. Then handed me a brochure with his pic on it skiing behind a boat with straight as ever legs. Pretty sure this was a decade later then the shot of him above so he was a believer in straight legs at one point and for some time. Probably why I never took a lesson from him. Wasn't a fan of straight legs back then and am not now...well gate pull out and glide.. yes.

[BraceMaker]

Its funny because if you look at that photo and then look at the Horton "back leg straight" video you see the inverse of each other.

 

[UCFskier]

@BraceMaker I would love to see video of straight legged skiing....