Compressed or Straight Legs?

[matthewbrown]

 

This is a much more ideal position than the Jeff Rodgers pic @bsmith

[matthewbrown]

This is a completely different looking body position than Jeff Rodgers, where the skier is staying centered on the ski. It could be due to camera angle as Adam pointed out but I think we can agree that Nate is much more on top of the ski than Jeff

[matthewbrown]

 

[ALPJr]

To me it it looks like Jeff’s ski is entering the trowel making the appearance that the tip is higher, while Nate’s ski is entering the center of the wake making the appearance that the tip is lower. Both skiers look like they’re in pretty darn good shape to me.

[bsmith]

@matthewbrown The pic of an ideal body position that you posted is a little past CL such that the skier had some time to raise his COM. Whereas the pic of Jeff Rodgers was right at CL where some lean away would still be expected.

 

The Adams' have recently been talking about the benefits of raising COM at CL. It could be that you guys are not far off on concepts in that a raised COM would give a more vertical looking stack position at CL like your ideal pic and not have so much lean at CL like the Jeff Rodgers pic.

[AdamCord]

@matthewbrown fair points. I think the problem is that what these guys are doing and what the rest of us are trying to do can get a bit mixed. As you said when the skier makes lots of speed into center a lot of this is a moot point. Nate can stand over the ski the way he does because there is no load on the ski anymore, he's generated so much speed into center that he's just riding the ski around the boat.

 

The problem I see over and over again when I coach skiers is that they are trying to get "forward" on the ski through and off the 2nd wake without generating enough speed first, and that almost always translates to shoulders forward, hips back, and handle about 3 feet from their hips.

 

What is much easier if you are finding that that's happening to you is to push your ski and hips forward through the transition. Even if you end up on the tail of the ski, you will be much more connected AND the ski will roll out of angle more naturally. I'll take the position of Mapple above with only the fin in the water all day over being disconnected and having the ski pointed to the bank.

 

This is a universal problem among skiers of all ability levels. When we reach our hardest pass all of us will find ourselves in a position to be trying to swing around the pylon without enough speed because as the rope gets shorter it becomes harder and harder to generate the swing we need. So we need a way to manage that load/speed relationship when the going gets tough. What I see when I watch most top skiers on their hardest pass is something that looks more like CP and Mapple in the above images.

[Zman]

@ScottScott Archimedes was a genius mathematician, and good friend of @Than_Bogan

[matthewbrown]

@AdamCord I can agree with all of that. I guess my point was what is ideal vs what is easier. Ideally of course is Nate, but as you were saying for everyday application for your average skier who struggles through the transition, the technique you are describing is easier to employ. As you pointed out if proper speed is generated the edgechange nearly takes care of itself. I’m probably a little jaded as I watch Terry Winter try and run 41 everyday, and the main thing that sabotages his efforts, is shooting the ski through the transition. Congrats on the 3@41 score in the fast and cold state of WA! I suspect you will run that pass in the near future.

[AdamCord]

Thanks @matthewbrown! At this point anyone skiing MM / 34mph is just trying to catch @adamhcaldwell . I'm lucky in that whenever I struggle I can call and pick his brain

[Adam Caldwell]

Theres a massive difference between "shooting" the ski after an uncontrolled amount of angle (and ultimately load ) into CL, and keeping the ski in front of you during a controlled direction change. I suffered with this for years. Mile early for 2 ball every time but swimming on the back of the ball, or a slack hit then swimming at 3.

 

Angle needs to happen at the ball. Trying to build angle through CL at 41 is a wasted effort and does tend to result in a ski that shoots out in front of you to the bank. It happens from the massive disconnect between ski path, handle path & direction change at CL and what happens to our body as a result of the two objects traveling on two different vectors moving into the swing.

 

The goal needs to be: maximizing position over the ski on the way to CL, controlling the skis angle into CL, leaving CL with less ski angle and not MORE (like Jeff Rodgers pic), elevating COM through CL (standing up tall) to anchor hips to handle, and keeping the leading elbow tight on the rib cage through the white water. All of this helps to get the body and the ski turning together, and earlier (yaw) helping our COM take the proper trajectory to apex.

 

Jeff was the FIRST dude to run 41 at 36 a very long time ago. While he may not 'look' flawless all the time : his control of where the ski is pointing, and how solid his connection behind the boat and entering the swing is tough to beat. The fact he is still capable of running 41 blows my mind. Its a hard pass at any speed, and he can make it look like an opening pass when his ski setup is right.

 

This video of Mapple was an eye opener for me and highlights a bit of the Connection/Swing without Excessive angle. Pay attention to where the ski is pointing when hes moving behind the boat. Pay very close attention to 3-4ball as its more obvious there.

 

 

The idea of needing MASSIVE ANGLE through the CL to run short-line is a myth. What you really need is MASSIVE connection. Angle should be made in the turn (as much as necessary to control timing with the boat). The better the timing - the less angle you'll need.

 

 

[HSL]

 

[Dysco]

@HSL or others, in your series of pictures, would you consider the ski "on edge" going through the wake as us discussed on here?

 

It seems this is talked about often and is related to leg position. What I see in the photos and in almost every video, especially slo-mo that I watch is ski on edge coming out of the turn, and by the first wake it's flattening, center wake it's completely flat. Thus being on edge through the wake is a bit of a myth.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[pregom]

@Dysco I'm not sure about that. For instance, look at the slo-mo video of Andy Mapple posted above by @adamhcaldwell - when Andy is going through the 3 ball to 4 ball cut, around 1:39-1:42, you can clearly see his ski on edge. Past CL, yes, the ski starts to flatten out and the skier starts the transition to other edge, but not before.

[Dysco]

@pregom agree on Maple at 3/4, but 1/2 you can clearly see the ski kick up at center wake, it's pretty flat by then. At least not what my mind says being on edge should look like? I've seen the same in dozens of pictures and videos. Im guessing that ankle flexion is inevitable and while the concave of the ski allows one edge to be doing the work, as soon as the wake comes into play, the ski is forced into a more flat position. Im guessing that without a wake, the ski could stay on full edge longer, ie cable skiing.

[HSL]

@dysco. The skier in the series of pictures is @adamcaldwell — the best 55k/34mph baller in the world. His views and technique recommendations are based on solid scientific principles which he has incorporated into his own skiing. He’s been gracious in sharing his views with us here. In this series of photos, he demonstrates what he preaches on striving to stand tall pushing away from the ski through centerline; initiating the transition; raising COM; and, keeping leading elbow connected to leading hip off the Second wake to to get up on the boat quickly. I think he does this better than anyone out there and this is reflected in his scores. Do what he says. Practice these moves. And make big spray....

[Dysco]

@HSL I'm not sure what your point is regarding my question about the ski flattening at the wake vs. the edge it is on prior. I'm aware of who Adam is and haven't disagreed with any of his advice. But thanks for the info.

[HSL]

@dysco. No worries. You asked about “your” photos. Just wanted to make sure you knew the series of photos are not mine and the best person to answer your question is the skier in the photos. My own view is that the timing of moving from edge to flat to edge through CL depends on the angle achieved off the buoy and the speed achieved into CL. The higher the speed — the earlier the transition.... My two cents.