170,000 Reasons The New Nautque Won't Sell Down Under

[vtmecheng]

@Horton, sure you can show a bass boat that costs over $100k. I can also bring up a ton of options below $50k, the Nitro Z18 can be had for that price with some nice options. If all fishing boats cost $100k then boat fishing would decline and become a fringe activity for those with lots of disposable income, just like skiing.

[swc5150]

I paid 2.9x's for my '15 Prostar than my parents did for our '86 MC skier back then. Sit down with a dealer and negotiate, you'll pay no where near the big MSRP. Or if you don't want to deal with the back and forth, buy a promo.

[Wish]

Wow on the CrisCraft. That thing is gorgeous. Saw one at the Olrando boat show. There simply is no comparison to our tugs when it comes to luxurious look and feel of one of these. It screams wealthy. Was very surprised to see it for less then 100k MSRP and truly does make me scratch my head wondering why tow tugs are north-ish of that figure MSRP not being anywhere near CrisCrafts look and feel. But R&D for the perfect wake probably has something to do wth it.

[DanE]

And how is the search after the perfect wake since the introduction of the SN bubble butt going?

[AndersonSkiTeam]

The Carbon Pro tried to fill the less expensive but good boat niche. No one bought them. My brother has one and is best ski wake for my longer line abilities. We are getting gouged by the boat companies but until people stop buying the newest boats they won’t change. That or the big 3 will simply stop building ski boats and produce more surf boats where people really get gouged. 200,000 for a boat designed to go 10mph.

[Horton]

@AndersonSkiTeam & all you guys.

 

We are not getting gouged! The price of boats is a bad thing for the sport but the boat companies are not making a killing. I do not know how many ways to say it. I do not much about the economics the new Nautique but for the the 3 other boats the profit margins are not exorbitant. I believe that ski boats are the lowest profit products at all 3 boat companies.

[ALPJr]

Give it time. Someone's bound to try something new/old again.

[vtmecheng]

I wonder how much all that tuning tab tech cost to develop and integrate?

[Golfguy]

So, since tournament boats are such a low ROI for the big three, why didn’t the just continue producing the same haul instead of making them larger, heavier and in need of bigger more expensive engines. They could have incrementally added ZO and other goodies. This would have eliminated the need for re-tooling and casting for new boat configurations. Thus, lower prices to the consumer and the same or larger profit margin for the manufacturer? Think the venerable SN 196 or even the early 90's MC and of course the CP.

[Jaypro]

At the end of the day, you can buy a promo boat that is less than a year old for the price we all desire and a lot of people are discussing here. I bought a 17' Prostar promo for $52,500 with 290 hours from Bennett's, saving $35,000. Living in Vermont, I am lucky to put 50 hours on a boat in a season. Killer boat at a killer price. Done deal.

[Horton]

@Golfguy yea I wish Porsche would stop making better, safer and faster cars. I was also bummed that the new GM Trucks are retooled. I may be able to afford a new Silverado in a few years but I will never be able to afford a new or low mileage 911.

[dvskier]

@Horton You don’t think Porsche would be a BOS sponsor and toss in a Cayenne Turno S as a bonus for you? They certainly have a seeet spot with your members. Remember a few years ago you didn’t get a boat. Then came Carbon Pro and now a MasterCraft! Be positive, it works!

[swc5150]

@Horton I think I like you more and more every day!

[Horton]

If anyone wants the best deal possible find your local promo guy and get a 200 hr boat. Often you will not find published prices for those boats. This is true for all 3 brands.

[wilecoyote]

@Horton, I don't think the issue here is are the new models prices justified by how much change has gone in to them. The issue is, is all this "improvement" worth the added cost? Yes Porsche has made all kinds of improvements, but per @ToddF 's analysis the the 1984 Carrera was MSRP 42,000 CAD, as I've mentioned the new one is 163,000. It should cost 102,000. So a new one costs about 1.6 times today what it did in 1984. A new Nautique is about 4 times today, and the MC 3 times. Why? I don't think they're gouging, I just think they've gone in the wrong direction with development. If we stick with the Porsche example, when you look at a 1984 911 and a 2019 GT3, you can tell it's the same car that has 35 years of development. When you look at a new Nautique, can you tell it came from a 1984 model?

[vtmecheng]

Building on @wilecoyote, check out just how much Porsche and Chevy have improved their products since even 2000. Drive new and old back to back, the improvements in handling, power, comfort, and fuel economy will be starting. I am willing to bet that the improvements by Nautique are not nearly as pronounced. What has changed on the boats is all the luxury items included. Yes, cars now include many luxury items too but with incredible upgrades to those previously mentioned categories.

 

If ski boat margins are really slim and they don't sell many due to high prices, then I don't see a good future for the industry. Luxury cars cost a lot and sell low volumes but the margins are incredibly high compared to a Civic.

[Horton]

@wilecoyote & @vtmecheng

I've had long conversations with people in the industry (but not at the big three) who looked at introducing new products at a budget price point. The conclusion is always that you cannot build a quality tug cheap.

 

As far as bells and whistles I'm really not sure what you see in the modern boats that you would strip out. Do you want upholstery that looks like hell after 300 hours? Do you want super crappy carpet that also degrades after 300 hours? Do you want to remove the sound deadening materials so the boat is louder? Do you want less horsepower? Convenient Bimini's? ZO? You expect your boat to come with a stereo? (I always order no stereo but my 19 has one)

 

I can't say it enough, for the good of the sport I wish boats cost half what they do but it's just the reality of the market.

 

[swc5150]

@horton makes good points again. Tour CC or MC and they'll show you the highest quality materials they use. I was shocked at how many man hours it takes just to sew the motor box vinyl on the SN200, not to mention how costly the vinyl alone is. These are big-time premium boats. Comparison to Chris Craft? Yes, a new MC or CC is just as high quality in every way, plus way more innovative. They're expensive and you get what you pay for. Rant over

[ToddF]

Ford and Chevy have pony cars that cost 60k+- that can run with the 190k 911 911gt3rs

And the interior quality of those cars is quite nice as well. So can it be done? I think so. 15 year old moomba interiors look pretty good Too.

[Horton]

I give up. whatever.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ Horton if you would just GET A JOB you would be able to afford that 911.

 

Back on topic, Jody et al have brought up the increased government regulations for positive flotation, emissions (catylic converters), etc are responsible for a significant piece of the cost increase on new boats. Yeah some of them make sense, but many are non value added for real skiers.

 

Bottom line for most skiers is that repowering an older boat is the best bang for the buck. But those don’t have heated seats and iPhone holders that some people really want want and presto you are back up to a high dollar boat.

 

Second bottom line is that most people prefer to complain instead of working toward a better option.

[Wish]

How much of the cost of boats is the big 3 trying to one up each other?

[Jody_Seal]

@Bruce_Butterfield

I will include an I phone holder with every e-control engine re-power!

Sorry the heated seats will cost big though!!

[MISkier]

To put a heated seat in my boat cost me about $250, including the factory dash switch cover and ignition switch relay. It was relatively easy to install. I did not include the pneumatic stapler and stainless steel staples in that amount, but I believe that was about another $40-$50 total.

 

My iPhone is either in the glovebox or the Wakeye.

[LeonL]

Of all the talk back and forth on ski boat prices, I think the most telling is the Chris Craft comparison. I'm sure Chris Craft maintains a comfortable profit margin. All the regulations remain the same, so those points are moot. And you can't convince me that direct drive is more costly than than an out drive.

[ALPJr]

I wonder if the Sanger DXII is sold in AU - 20ft, direct drive, 2,450lbs, powered by Indmar.

[elr]

When was the last time Chris Craft updated their hull and helm?

[vtmecheng]

The same regulations apply to all boat manufacturers and there are plenty of options below $50k. Flotation is super low cost (closed cell spray foam), emissions on a boat is basically a catalytic converter and O2 sensors (which are already integrated into the electronics of all engines), etc. Also, the outdrive components of other boats probably don't cost much more than direct drive simply due to volume.

 

@Horton, the cost cutting measures question you present is interesting but I'm not sure relevant. Take a Chaparral H2O. Other than the omission of carpet, the boat comes with everything a base Nautique does except ZO. That means all the vinyl work, radio, and government requirements. There is a difference in the quality of materials touched but that doesn't mean they won't last in the lower end models just that the materials don't feel as high end. Things like big touch screens must cost a lot to have in an exposed area like a boat dashboard. I also recognize that all the work required to design the wake is costly up front. This probably reads like I am bouncing around a bit but hear me out. I think most would say the Chris Craft is nicer than a Nautique but the same or less money. A lot more effort goes into the hull shape of the Nautique and I maintain that those micro tuners are costly and don't add much (you like your Prostar and it does without them). I am sticking with a reasonable starting MSRP of $70k for a high quality ski boat. So I am not saying the prices are way off base, just higher than they should be. Maybe I can get a new Prostar with trailer for just above that but I doubt the Nautique can be had that low.

 

Now that I've thought about things more, here's what I believe is happening. In the auto industry there are plenty of people who want to buy new over used. These people could buy a higher level used car for the same price but select the new over used. That feeds the lower end new market, like Civics and Corollas. These cars then become available used, which allows for low cost options. This same market exists for bass boats and runabouts, giving the middle class buyer options in the new and used market. For whatever the reason is, this doesn't exist in the ski boat market. Do skiers have little desire for a new lower cost starter boat over the used upper end boat? Were they never given solid options for a lower cost starter ski boat? It sounds like the Carbon Pro was a nice option but maybe it didn't (or couldn't) find that balance of features and value. Right now the only options available for the first time ski boat buyer is to drop large dollar on a new or slightly used boat ($60k is still a lot to most people). To get down to $20k we are talking an 18 year old boat and many see that as a lot for a maintenance risk. I would personally love a new/newer ski boat that doesn't have carpet (it's really not necessary), uses analog gauges, and doesn't have all the other unneeded options. A simple Bluetooth radio would be nice for hanging by the dock. I am obviously in the minority.

 

Ultimately, this discussion will have no influence on the market availability or costs. Boat manufacturers make what they believe will keep them going financially. The auto industry figured out years ago that higher end models net bigger margins. The boat industry is probably no different. Unlike the auto industry, people don't need boats and even small economy declines likely hit boat manufacturers hard. Therefore, they have to make more per unit sold just to be prepared for the more frequent bad years. It just sucks that so few can afford to enjoy such a fun experience. Sorry this was such a long post but if skiing is ever going to grow it has to become more accessible.

[Wish]

In order for Chris Craft to keep selling boats, I suspect plenty of money goes into R&D for a better ride, creature comforts, styling and performance just to keep ahead of the competition. If not, they'd still be making wood boats. Plus multiple models varying in size and cost. It seems pretty close to an apples to apples comparison to dd ski boats in that regard. And to read their claims, passion for detail and pushing boat design is evident. Certainly does not seem like they should be less expensive. But guessing you will never see them build a base model either so at least SN is now doing just that.

 

https://www.chriscraft.com/models/

[skierjp]

Maybe Chris Craft sells thousands of these boats compared to a few hundred ski boats that the big 3 sell. Supply and Demand, the more units you sell the cheaper they can sell them. Also Cris Craft has a much larger line of Boats to chose from.

In general I think skiers must be the cheapest people on the planet. I don’t hear wakeboarders complaining and they are dishing out 100k more then us and WAY more fuel consumption.

Everyone talks about a cheaper ski boat and it was right in front of your face “Carbon Pro”. They probably didn’t sell 30 total units and most of them were Promos.

I get it, not everyone can afford a new boat but many can. The ones that can will sell or trade their almost new couple year old boat. Take advantage of the used boat or Promo market.

[jhughes]

@skierjp has it down. The cheapness is pretty amazing. The best part is in most cases it's not that these skiers don't have the money- they have tons of money! How many poor 3-event skiers are out there? I don't know any. In fact most of them I know are in advanced careers like law or medicine and/or have their own businesses. I have a 2000 and 2016 Nautique, I've said it before but the difference between them is huge and worth the increased cost from comfort to power to pull to features to smoothness to tracking and everything else. We simply marvel at it as a family. And I'm the guy always defending the TSC boats, too. I've had older boats and the difference is proportional, as well, relative to their age. Our 83 MC was like a Model T that I couldn't wait to get rid of and our 90 and 93 SNs were somewhere in the middle.

 

I've said this before as well but "afford" is a pretty flexible term, and a throwaway excuse or complaint for most. Most folks that say they could never "afford" a newer boat haven't done the real work to see what the real costs and real financing options are. If you really prioritized getting a newer boat, you'd figure out a way to "afford" one.

[Wish]

There's the other caveat that I think drives up cost. No one pays cash anymore. So why not just up the costs as a manufacturer. It's still affordable...kinda. How many folks financed boats in the 80s and early 90s vs now? Were banks even writing loans for such items (not counting personal loans). Now financing is given out like candy for just about anything recreational and the manufacturers know it. They are gonna make the sale and get their money.

[Than_Bogan]

@Jhughes I agree with many of your points.

 

But if you're already an addict, you find a way to buy your drugs. That's not saying much.

 

The concern I have is the barrier to entry. What is the path to get from "mildly interested in doing something fun on a lake" to "hardcore slalom skier"?

[Not_The_Pug]

I have been on the promo team since 2012 and every boat I have sold has been paid for in cash. So I think many of the people are paying cash for these boats. And only 1 has gone to a private lake.

I have a way for paying cash for boats and cars. I have two savings accounts set up for my boat and truck fund. I put at least $500 a month into the accounts. So when I want to buy a new boat or truck, I pay cash. This also allows for being used to making a payment if you upgrade a little sooner then anticipated. This way if you do finance, you finance the smallest amount possible. Once you pay off the balance, you go back to putting the money in the savings account.

 

I have always liked this saying: "I know I don't need a new boat, I want a new boat, if I needed it, I would already have it." I use this for anything when my wife says I don't need it.

 

Also if Porsche only sold a few hundred cars a year, how much to you think they would cost? I looked up yearly sales for new 911's and it avg between 8k to 11k per year in the US alone and they are over $100k easily. 3 event ski boats are a small market. But there are options out there for great used boats to get started.

[swc5150]

@Wish Getting a 15 year note in the 80's for a boat was easy as pie. I know a scumbag former MC sales guy that made his living doing that back in the day.

[skierjp]

Yep, I know a guy in 1987 that took out a 15 year loan on a Ski Supreme.

[jimbrake]

@skierjp - me, too. I took out a 15-yr loan in 1987 on an American Skier. My first "big" purchase after graduating college. House came the next year. Priorities.

[vtmecheng]

Everyone saying there are lots of people able to afford a ski boat and that people just complain about high prices, I'm guessing you make a really good living. Not trying to be mean but you come across as pretentious. @jhughes, why do you think so many skiers are established doctors, lawyers, and business owners? It's because they are the only people who can afford a new ski boat. If everyone is cool with only the rich having ski boats then let the prices keep going up and the number of skiers will drop. Again, look at the bass boat world. They offer entry level boats so the young fisherman can get into fishing in their 20s, before something else takes their interest. There are so many threads about advancing the sport of skiing and why it's declining. If you can't understand that many people don't have lots of disposable then I am waisting my time.

[Wish]

Hmmmm.. stand corrected on loans but I still think most folks back then paid cash.

[dvskier]

@vtmecheng You can get into skiing by purchasing an old dad boat. It doesn’t have to be an expensive one. If you want to compete at the highest level you’ll need access to a newer boat. This can be accomplished by joining a lake that has a late model boat.

I’m retired and I can afford a new boat but see no sense in owning a $100k boat when there are other ways around it.

 

You can be sure that the manufacturers aren’t going to significantly reduce the boat prices to grow the market. Nautique cane out with the new 200 to keep the cost down. Seems like Nautique is attempting to be fair to their customers to me.

[Dacon62]

Water finds its level. If manufacturers build a product and sales are brisk they keep on building them. If sales slump considerably they move in a different direction.

We, as consumers, direct the production. How do we respond...?

[swc5150]

“Entry level” ski boats seem to fail because they’re still expensive to build; there’s no getting around dropping the big V8 in it yet. Then they price compete directly with like new promos and gently used top of the line models.

 

The fishing boat rationale is flawed in that cheaper models can be much smaller and/or have half the motor hanging off the back. Plus those builders have economies of scale with such a vast market.

 

[jhughes]

The most ridiculous aspect of this sport is that in order to do it we require an entire lake to be still, potentially for hours, in order to do it. Boat prices seem nowhere near that as far as an issue.

[allycat]

yep

 

[vtmecheng]

@swc5150 you make a good point about engine size, despite being a triple panda winner. I wonder how much of the cost is really engine. In bass boats the engine upgrades are about $5,000 to go up 50 hp. Upgrading size and features like 3D fish finders, trolling motors, livewell O2 generators, etc really jack up the price. In the end, there's a lot that goes into the price of these things to ensure companies like Nautique stay in business. Maybe I'm just wishing it were cheaper for the average person to ski. For me, I need a new tow vehicle soon and hoping start the used boat search again this fall.

[LoopSki]

why is a 2019 Cessna 172 cost so much. The airframe hasnt changed much . Avoinics are much more advanced now days. But its still costs close to $400k. Is it that much more costly to build than a brand new Nautique? Or do they not sell enough to keep cost down.

[vtmecheng]

@LoopSki I have a feeling the quality controls for materials, manufacturing, etc are quite a bit higher in a Cessna to maintain safety.

[swc5150]

After losing a brand new SN196 in a divorce, I bought a '91 Prostar for $6k to feed my addiction until getting back on my feet. Priorities:)

[wilecoyote]

@LoopSki Cessna 172 is so much because of liability insurance. I heard this several years back. The insurance jumped so high that it accounted for half the sale price of the plane (IIRC) and it actually forced a few manufacturers to drop production of their light single engine models.