Help me run 32 off

[arigold22]

I'm looking for a few tips to help me run 32 off. I often have a good start and 1 ball but struggle coming into 2 ball. Based on the video below, anything I should focus on to get me further down the course?

 

[Chef23]

I would say try to get a little more width or maintain the width you have on your gate. Next I would like to see more intensity into the first wake to generate more speed and width into one ball. It looks to me like you are going easy into the wakes and you feel like one ball is fine but you are coming in a little slow and narrow which makes 2 ball very difficult.

[ski6jones]

Take a look at where your handle is coming off the second wake. It should be much closer to your hips than that. Keeping the handle in closer will allow you to have better direction into 1 and greater width. @Chef23 commented about more intensity into the wakes. That will allow handle to be closer to your hips into the first wake and to remain there off the second wake. Work hard to get your away elbow (right into 1 ball) pinned to your vest into the first wake and don't let it come away until you are well into the flats after the second wake. That's what I see.

[gregy]

Somewhere I was reading Chris Rossi said he tried to run every pass in practice. He'd slow the boat a little in hardest pass. I slowed to 32 mph 32 off lately a few times and I think it helps. Once I can run 32 mph I'll speed back up.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Consider check out the frames on the 1-2 cut where you are exactly centerline to the boat, just before, and frames just after

Appeared you shut down the pull right at centerline. this will also destroy your width and push your apex downcourse

observe how your shoulders are almost crossing the wake first, quickly followed by your ankles, lastly your hips. Hips behind, the power is elusive

#2 preturn looks heavy on the rear foot

A same or even less peak power applied over a longer period will produce more cross-wake speed, more width, pull the apex upcourse, and allow a controlled pre-turn

 

[arigold22]

I really appreciate the advice. Seems to always come back to those darn gates. I'll try to work on keeping my hips to the handle as I turn into my gate and all the way to the buoy. I have always tried to think about turning into my gate slowly and over my front foot but maybe that's leading to my hips dropping back? I've also had a hard time carrying the handle all the way to the buoy without pulling too long. Any tricks to separate the two?

[RichardDoane]

@arigold22 Can you run -28 four times in a row ?

[arigold22]

@RichardDoane I don't think I've ever tried. I've run it twice in a row but typically move up after that.

[RichardDoane]

Practice your good habits. Get that 28 dialed. Then move to 32.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Ari, lets go back even earlier in the video..

 

Look at the first turn-in prior to the gate, I'm seeing shoulders rolled forward, hips are starting the session behind you. Thus, hips are far behind the handle. This is before you really begin the session.

 

consider its impossible to pull that all back into place when in the the middle of a strong cut. Nor, you wouldn't want to do that every cut either. After one starts loading the line, the hips are now committed and have no where to go but lower and more behind you, because they are a collapsed hinge and cannot be opened without giving up line tension. All can do is resist, at best. And now one's pull is highly limited by lower back strength, thus power-limited.

 

One could surmise, that as you glide and begin roll-in to the start gate, your hips and torso are also not in your vision periphery . Which is a good indicator they are behind you

 

Lets extrapolate the run back even further, to when we are getting up out of the water...

 

Most starts, are at best a yard sale averted, and the body is way out of slalom position, and its just victory to be above the water. Form is indeed compromised in order to get up.

 

Now afterwards, unless purposefully corrected, the shoulders remain rolled over, and the hips are behind . That is no way to begin a set, in a course nor free skiing.

 

After getting up, i suggest reset the body into a strong skiing position.. Roll shoulders back, chest out, thrust hips forward. Exaggerate the motion if you have to, to really feel it. You will begin to see your torso in your lower periphery and can feel one's lats and biceps somewhat competing for the same space. this means the skeleton is now lining up to be ready to accelerate like you may not have encountered yet.

 

when you roll in to a cut like this, you will now feel the line power through your skeleton to your ski, and not be limited by lower back muscles You will use your skeletal compressive strength with your largest muscles. Glute/Quad, upper back and traps

 

Now If you prefer cutting in a more compressed state, you can simply compress with your knees all you wish, but if your hips stay forward as they should, you're not giving up leverage.

 

Now, you will be in a position to hold that edge, maintain that angle to the boat, apply that power through the both wakes that we spoke of earlier, and get you wider and earlier.

[arigold22]

@ReallyGottaSki Interesting way to think about it. I like the physiology references in your comment, really helpful for me. I'm going to try to focus on those things each time I get up and hopefully build some better habits!

[jhughes]

@arigold22 it takes one to know one so I'm giving you advice from someone roughly in the same place. You have to get back to the basics, well voiced by @ReallyGottaSki above. The answer is you'll most likely never run -32 with that body alignment, and it'll take some focus and determination to reset your technique and "feel" good alignment. Otherwise you'll pretty much just be running -28 at 75% or whatever until the lumbar spine throws in the towel. This is the year I get back to basics and learn how to do that as well.

 

 

[andjules]

I'm going to be a bit of contrarian: many people on this board tend to always go back to gates and setup, as if every failed pass can always be traced to the set up. There's something valuable in that philosophy, but I think it gets overstated, often. Could your setup/gates/1 be a little better? sure. Is that what's stopping you? I don't think so.

To my eye, your body position from 1-to-2 is night-and-day worse than your gates-to-1. Your ass is dragging more dramatically, and as a consequence your arms end up much further from your hips, and coming through/off the wakes you crush, giving all your energy/angle back to the boat. Result: a narrow-and-fast 2 ball.

@Horton sometimes talks about trying to straighten your back leg. I think if you focused on a straighter back leg as you approach the wakes from 1-to-2, your hips would come forward and you wouldn't give so much energy back to the boat. Keep your arms tight to your vest after the wakes and I think you'll carry more of your energy outbound, setting you up for a better 2.

My 2¢.

P.S. I'm about your level (a pass ahead on a very good day), and have struggled with similar stuff. Please take my comments humbly, in that context.

[TheBigHead]

could you post some successful 28 off passes?

 

Its tough to gauge your habits based of one turn.

 

Perhaps what you are showing us is how you generally ski, perhaps its just a one off. Hard to tell without more source material.

 

 

[arigold22]

@TheBigHead I'll try to get some -28 video next time I have a 3rd out at the lake. This video was taken just recently and I thought it highlighted my issues well. I typically get 0.5 or 2 @ -32.

[arigold22]

@jhughes glad to see I'm not the only one. Good luck! Hopefully we can both build some good habits and put up big scores.

[Chef23]

@arigold22 I agree that seeing some 28s would help and the better your 28s are the easier it will get through 32 off. I also agree with @andjules your 1-2 body position could improve some but I do realize it is your offside and frankly whose offside position couldn't be better. Improving your space into one ball will allow you to let the ski finish the turn a little more and get in better position when the boat picks you up which should help.

 

I did just rewatch the video and improving the intensity into the wakes I think will help a lot. A few years ago I was about where you were but working on -35 and Jack Travers gave me that same advice and I went from running 1-2 with the very occasional 3 to running a full pass at 35 in the next set.

[arigold22]

@Chef23 Awesome! That's a huge improvement. I'm trying to focus on the intensity at the gate while keeping a strong position with my hips up. Seemed to help a bit Monday but will require several sets until it gets more consistent. Really hoping to put up some -35 scores this year so I appreciate the help.

[DaveLemons]

Speed is your friend. It’s how and when you carry the speed that it becomes beneficial. As others have stated your timid through the gates so you can get a good one. Carry more speed in your glide, turn in with more speed, get wider on the boat, however you want to think of it the result is the same. The ski will come around easier and allow you to get in a good stack before the boat starts pulling you down course. Carry the speed out and earlier to one ball.

[Than_Bogan]

"will require several sets" ... More likely "focusing on it for the rest of your life." Almost every skier on earth, always including me, needs to improve body position and efficiency during that critical speed generation phase into the wakes.

[jhughes]

@Than_Bogan I thought the same. "Will require a strong mental game and complete ski brain rewire over a lifetime". "Tips" might get you to -28, but going further requires strong fundamentals and leaving the ego at the dock.

 

 

[So_I_Ski]

Although I agree with most of the comments about improving your alignment as a prerequisite to continued advancement in the course, the "reason" that you can't make this particular pass is not because you aren't early or wide enough. What I see are poor off side turn mechanics that must be addressed to ever make a 32 off. Unlike some, I do not believe that the ski turns itself. Your onside is decent, your offside is not.

 

It doesn't help that your hips are trailing and the handle has peeled away as you start the pre-turn going into your offside and you could never run a 35 in that position but you should still be able to run this 32. As so many of the ballers have said over the years, be tall at the ball. You start your pre-turn by leaning over too soon and then make matters worse by dropping your handle. If you freeze frame the video you can spot the handle drop very clearly. From that point on you are dropping your shoulders and your head, in effect attempting to make that turn simply by falling over.

 

I would suggest that you can dramatically improve that off side turn by simply standing up (as per Horton's advice by straightening the back leg as you exit the wakes). That in itself will bring your hips closer to the handle. Then focus on reaching up, not down while attempting to level your shoulders and head as much as you are able. Lastly, turn the ski by edging like a snow skier. Think feet, ankles, knees and hips. In effect turn the ski with your lower body, not your upper body. That's my two cents for what it's worth and have fun working on that 32.

[Than_Bogan]

To my eye, everything that So_I_Ski describes is a nearly unavoidable consequence of the body position between 1 ball and the wakes. Yes, it's always a good idea to try to re-establish alignment in the pre-turn, but that's more about saving a relatively easy pass that you've just screwed up than it is a key element to advance down a new pass.

 

That said, try stuff. Each person will respond to coaching and focus elements in a different way. If something works for you, use it!

[drewski32]

You're not far off from running that pass. Focus on two things: balance and connection.

 

Notice that in your wake crossing your hips are still a little behind you thus leading to poor connection and loss of power. I like that you don't panic and try to rip hard turns at your hardest pass, it shows control

[ReallyGottaSki]

Fantastic discussion men

 

Yeah one could look at it this way, why tweak and squeak little secondary effects at 32 off, only to gain a fragile 32 off pass at the cost of pushing out an even more difficult plateau to 35 off

 

If permit me to further analyze the video...

 

thinking the 2 ball was lost way back here ...

 

 

Here, the line is going full load (or within a few frames), and the mechanical alignments are off for a strong pull that can maintain a strong angle of attack through the wake, hence why i think Ari let off by boat centerline, At that point choices are limited to let off, fold further, or be folded.

 

 

The hips are just not going to come up during max line tension or in the wakes. Just not. If they did come up then, then its evidence its not a very hard pull. ...there would be let-off... because that angle of attack is unsustainable with the folded body angles , the body crushes further and thus letting off early

 

I suggest the point to commit to the hips forward/hips up alignment is way back here, prior to the line loading up hard.

 

 

 

But after the line loads full, i feel that opportunity is gone and trying to do it in the wake promotes let-off and all the secondary effects it causes...late, lack of width, low handle..

 

If the body is aligned way back there, hips thrust forward (call it hips preceding the shoulders) then the skier takes max advantage of the cross-course component of the force vector to the boat earlier, maximizes acceleration and can maintain that angle to the wake exit, (accelerates for longer period) keeping the line loaded on exit of the wake and thus brings that energy to maximize width with all the timing advantages of staying upcourse.

 

[arigold22]

Went into my slalom set with a few things in mind yesterday. Stand tall at my gates, focus on having my hips up and being connected as I turn in, and more intensity as I come across the wakes to 1 ball as @Chef23 suggested.

 

Just focusing on those things at the start of the pass has made a tremendous difference. I have created much more time at the buoy. I feel more balanced as I make my turn. And I've been finishing 1 ball with my hips up 75% of the. It feels different than any other 1 ball turn I've had before but has been leading to more space and control at 2 ball. My boat driver yesterday said I felt completely different behind the boat, especially at my gate.

 

My first look at -32 yesterday I ran 4 which either ties or is my personal best. It felt as if I had the pass run until I panicked at 4 ball and got off the line early.

[arigold22]

@ReallyGottaSki I think you are spot on. I have often felt, especially at -28 and -32, that as I finish my turn at 1 ball I get "squished". I could never seem to figure out why as it seemed to happen no matter how early and wide I was coming into the buoy. I think as you mentioned in your previous comment, these things are happening before 1 ball at my gate. I've been focusing on this the last couple of sets and have felt much less "squished" coming out of the buoy which leads to a better position at 2 and subsequent buoys. That is until I do something stupid and mess it up...

[Chef23]

@arigold22 great skiing yesterday. Staying relaxed when you are in a pass at your PB is tough. Be patient and you will get it next time.