My experience at regionals...

[WaterSkier12]

Would 2nd the use of the website @live tournament scoring. It’s a bit behind live action, maybe a skier or 2, but a very useful tool. Our phones were glued to it as we were stayin onsite and couldn’t here the announcers too well.

Sorry for your situation.

[GAJ0004]

I always show up a half hour before the start time of the whole tournament. I get my gear laid out and ready to go(slalom and tricks where applicable). I like to watch the other divisions ski while waiting for my event. If I am in a rush I don't ski well at all.. Entry fees are not cheap. I am not throwing my money away..

 

[gmut]

@Simpson This same scenario happened to me at the Midwest Regionals in the mid 90's. I arrived at the site as the skier after me came out of the water. I chalked this up as a learning experience. The drive home from Illinois to Michigan was not much fun. Look on the bright side. I bet this never happens to you again!!!

[LeonL]

Two comments. First, I enjoy the sport and thus enjoy watching especially high level tourneys like Regionals, so I'm always way early. I've always found it amazing that some people want to show up 15 minutes before they ski and then flee as soon as they get put of the water. Not addressing you @Simpson.

Second, @klindy has always been a guy (official) who cares about a skiers experience.

[ToddL]

Each year there are rules changes, so clearly there are also requests for rules changes and some are approved. My son and I requested a change that was approved regarding ropes for B2 skiers. So, it does happen. Use this thread to consider all sides both for and against the proposed change. Make your case as to the pros of the change and how to mitigate any "cons" of the change. Get bonus points for drafting revised rule book text, too.

 

A close friend of mine missed his turn at SCR regionals this year. Newish to the regionals scene. It was his own fault though for estimating 8 mins per skier, with a late day division schedule, and still missed his turn despite showing up 2 hrs earlier than his estimate. Sucks.

 

Quick tip - you can use the registration / entry status report and report type = Scheduling to estimate division times.

 

I have always hated publishing skier estimated start times. It always creates some sort of problem where a skier relies on that estimate.

 

Some neat ideas from posts above are:

• registration report printouts from AWSA/WSTIMS which "flag" newer skiers

• event/division sequence/days should fixed and not change prior to the week of the event

• establish "will not start before" times for each division/event

 

@klindy is not an s$$hole. Maybe he is just a bit too smart. So, I guess he is somewhat of a smarta$$.

 

Seeded tournaments are really exciting. They bring back the competitive atmosphere, IMHO.

 

Lastly, if you have never been the scheduling coordinator of a Regionals tournament, then you cannot even begin to imagine the effort and planning that goes into this. My wife has (with some help from me), so I have lived it. The schedule has to consider officials assignments, boat allocations, skiing officials' schedules, family member conflicts of interest, and have a buffer around all of that because nothing ever runs perfectly to plan.

 

 

 

[lhoover]

Well, Ballers, isn't this special. Have been informed by Simpson that his waiver request to ski at Natls has been denied by the EVP of the Southern Region. Wonderful! Let's chase away a rookie who made a horrible rookie mistake and show him, by Golly, that rules are a heck of a lot more important than individuals. Adios! Don't forget your Tshirt and your Koozee and see you at Natls. No! Sorry! Not at Natls as we have way too many entries as it is and we enjoy limiting participation.

 

And to think several of us were encouraging him to enter tournaments and have a great time with nothing but great people. Just another reason, in a constantly expanding list, why our sport is going the way of dinosaurs.

 

I haven't skied tourneys in many moons but have always been a Supporting Member of AWSA, proudly so. No mas. Color me gone.

[gjohnson]

Competitive water skiing is dying because members have decided tournaments are not worth their time. Other than a handful of tournaments, the only point of skiing in one is setting a top score. Once skiers tire of that, they stay home. Every other thread people prattle on about why competitive skiing is dying while missing the mark. Tournaments are boring. It's that simple.

 

Bummer for Simpson.

[skierjp]

You would think that if this was your first Regionals you would had the sense to show up early. So if we make concessions for him where do we stop. I agree with the Chief Judge and the decision of not being able to ski Nationals. FYI, This year the Southern Region had the largest turn out going back 10 years!

[disland]

Can someone invite Bob Archambeau to address this forum with the rational for this decision

[skierjp]

Duhh, he was late, missed his turn, never assumed a skiing position! Not qualified for Nationals. Case closed!

[disland]

@skierjp "where do we stop"? been to knee board nationals lately? seen the AWSA membership numbers?

[skierjp]

Rules are Rules, where do we stop with that? Numbers are not bad in the Southern Region. Hey I know! Why don’t we give everyone a trophy and call it a day. Wait a second, no one is reading the forum tonight, there watching CNN and the Democratic Debate.

[Horton]

I don't think anybody here doesn't think that it's super unfortunate what happened to @Simpson. The problem is the rules exist for a reason.

[skierjp]

??

[disland]

The "assume a skiing position" rule was created to solve a completely different problem and had nothing to do with the this type of situation.

[BK]

@skierjp You say he should show up early? He showed up a day early. And then a tournament official told him when to arrive the following day. And then once again, he showed up early. Congrats on your large nationals. Maybe you could work on your "welcoming into the sport" skills, and reading comprehension while you're at it.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

This has been a very interesting thread to read different perspectives, so I’ll chime in with my $0.02

 

First to @Simpson, this is an unfortunate situation and I sincerely hope you are not discouraged and come back again. This is a learning experience that many skiers have had to go through the hard way.

 

Now for my soapbox :)

- The “tournament official” who suggested the times was not an official, but a registration volunteer trying to help out. Any official I know, when asked what time someone would ski would have answered to the effect of “….here’s the schedule, BUT its only a guide and events frequently move faster or slower depending many factors and you need to give yourself plenty of time before your turn. If you aren’t ready when your name is called you will be scratched.”

 

- The Regional championships are a seeded event. This is one of the few tournaments where placement is emphasized and rewarded. Seeding is important. What if the top seed knew he only needed x buoys at y off to win and that’s what he skied even though it was below his capability. Then someone who missed their turn is allowed to ski after him and beats the high score? How is that fair? This is very different from the local class C tournaments where skiers go out of order all the time for many reasons (a good thing) and are only looking for scores and PBs.

 

- For those of you who think this was a horrible situation and he should be able to ski and/or go to Nationals, how many of you have ever:

o Been competitive at either a Regional or National level?

o Tried to organize a Regional or National tournament?

o Been involved in modifying rules?

o Think everyone should get a trophy?

 

- For the “no earlier than” event scheduling……That would only add more complications to scheduling events. The LOC has to allow for weather, boat breakdowns, camera malfunctions, officials getting in place to try to get as many ski rides in the day as practical. Holding up an event for “no earlier than” is ridiculous. Having a queue that people would move up is even more unworkable. If I was the LOC, all “no earlier than” times would be 8:00am

 

- The Nationals exception for missing regionals is a tough call. How does an EVP make a judgement for a situation like Simpson’s when he doesn’t know if its just because the skier is new and didn’t know better, or if he was out drinking Tequila with Horton and was too hungover to get to the site? And yes I know people who missed their first Regionals turn exactly because they were hungover. Many interpret the “extraordinary circumstances” clause as if you are not dying in the ER, you are out of luck. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I would not consider “not knowing when to show up” as “extraordinary circumstances” worthy of an exception, but every EVP has their own opinion. Its worth a try, but don’t be surprised if it doesn’t go anywhere.

 

- Do you really want to throw out all the rules just because the membership numbers are declining? Will throwing out the rules really change that?

 

- @klindy is one of the most reasonable and helpful officials I’ve ever come across.

 

The bottom line is that good judgement comes from experience. And for most of us, experience comes from bad judgement. Life is a learning experience and sometimes the most valuable experiences are not pleasant at the time – even for B1 or G1 who miss their gates, or the first time regional skier who shows up late.

 

[thager]

Just send a damn trophy to everyones home with a certificate!

[Drago]

Guys, that's not what he wants. There are several "dumb" rules in this sport, I think a skiing position @ Regionals is one of them, but that is the rule and everyone follows it. The CJ did his job, which is to enforce the rules.

It's unfortunate @Simpson didn't have better advice. I plan on 12 skiers an hour and being 2 hours early, more for an afternoon event (if I'm not judging or driving).

Seems like there are many stories similar to this. @Simpson has one now, and I urge you to keep the stoke into next year: go to Regionals and Nationals, continue to challenge yourself and grow and get better. It's an awesome/weird/quirky sport. I've had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows in waterskiing. Gotta ski whitecaps to appreciate glass.

[Simpson]

@Bruce_Butterfield Thank you for the kind words and yes it is unfortunate things unfolded this way, its very hard at this in particular juncture to not be somewhat discouraged. however I will not just quit pursuing the sport I'm quite passionate about. I would much rather not be at the center of this debate (for the obvious reasons among others) but am willing to be the most recent sacrifice necessary to possibly improve the sport I am just beginning to compete in.

 

- The "tournament official" was the chief score keeper and as such I would believe to be just that a Tournament official. BY FAR THE NICEST PERSON I MET! and was within 30min of predicting the end of the events Saturday for my practice set.

 

- As I stated in my original post I completely understand the seeding and agree 100%

 

- I have competed at national and regional level events in a different sport. (slightly more difficult due to It being 5man teams) Have organized local tournaments in the same sport.

 

- With this very thread I am in the process of trying to get rules changed.

 

- To even insinuate that everyone should get a trophy is crazy! I haven't heard one argument that perpetuates this socialistic ideology. Well maybe @skierjp with his democratic debate he may have those ideals.

 

- I just don't understand how setting a very optimistic time schedule for each event is difficult or makes organizing the event more difficult as it could actually make it easier. Especially since all of your allowances are delays not speeding things up so it seems as each delay makes people that much earlier for their event. simple Excel takes care of all of that. A working Queue to move events up is unrealistic. I agree with @JohnN when he says "how can it be trust no official, there may not be any "source of truth" that you can go to in advance, and get there early and figure it out for yourself. Kind of crazy for something at this level. I think this can be fixed, and not just for newcomers!"

 

- As for the nationals exception, my case is my case, all I can do is plead it and there's nothing I can do about the EVP's decision. I could be perfectly capable of having a hangover but if I can be at work by 5am with one I can damn sure ski with one as well if I told to be on the dock at 5am like I am by my job. @BG1 Again has a simple solution to this problem let me ski with no score and BOOM I got up behind the boat smashed face at the gates and can go to nationals and still a lesson learned without allll of this back and forth and lets just be honest I'm no threat to anyone in men's 2 for regionals much less nationals. (at least not yet)

 

- Throwing out ALL of the rules really? I don't believe anyone is asking for that, not me for sure and never will.

 

- @klindy has been quite helpful and obviously cares for this sport and I've greatly appreciated his input.

 

To read that "We all have heard of a story like this" - "this exact thing happened to me" so forth and so on makes me question again why? This is so easy to be black and white without making someone "have to chalk it up as a learning experience" on some poorly worded rule, lack of schedule or guidance.

You are correct wisdom comes from bad decisions for most and I'm definitely no exception. In this case I don't see how my actions can be construed as "bad decisions" for doing the exact thing everyone does at any event they have never participated in not just skiing but anything sports, professional, school, college, traveling and the list could continue. I went and asked someone...

 

 

[aupatking]

He wasn’t there to sit and watch the tournament all day because he was under my boat on a very hot hotel parking lot welding the axle back together so I didn’t die on the highway, or get stranded 4 hours from home. We want this guy skiing. Rules change really isn’t what is being asked for. He wanted to ski at regionals. He was there. Another M2 skier text me that they were scratching people all morning. They threatened to scratch him for not getting his gloves on fast enough. M2 was one of the last events, if not the last event of a very long week and those guys were ready to be done. When something is in your interest, you’ll do it, at the detriment to others and the sport, in this case. They wanted to be done and scratching people makes that happen.

[LLUSA]

@WaterSkier12 the southern regionals did use live scoring

[aupatking]

And @skierjp he doesn’t ski for medals. He skis because he loves it. He skis at -28, -32, -35 off at 34 mph but he’s in M2, so he’s skiing against guys skiing through -38 @ 36mph. We will likely never even compete for placement, but when we go we’d like to ski.

Edit: I had backed away and was staying out of this thread, and website until I cooled off but stupid comments like that get me phone calls.

[oldjeep]

Sounds pretty disorganized. There is no set start time per class? Trying to imagine how this would work in ski racing - yeah, just stand around here all day long and we will call your number sometime between 8AM and 5PM

[ALPJr]

Have only participated in AWSA state championships so can’t speak of the higher level, higher attendance events in the sport. We’ve been to multiple NERVA (volleyball) and AAU (basketball) regional and national level championships. In all of those each team/coach/athlete receives a schedule in advance for each day of the event. Basically the time that your first bracket starts. Then the coach and athletes establish their plans for arrival times, warm-ups, down time, etc. Sometimes, seldom there’s a delay and a bracket will start late. We never experienced a bracket starting ahead of time or showed up at the planned time only to be scratched. These are events with hundreds of teams, probably thousands of athletes. Once all entries are approved there must be a reliable formula that can be used to schedule start times for water ski ages groups which are made up of handful to a few dozen athletes. One thought/question - are AWSA officials at the regional and national level events paid for their work?

[mfjaegersr]

“This is a learning experience that many skiers have had to go through the hard way.”

 

Why? @Bruce_Butterfield

 

Why cant AWSA fix that? Because it’s not worth the trouble? It’s only one guy/gal per year...?

[jcamp]

"yeah, just stand around here all day long and we will call your number sometime between 8AM and 5PM" - That is not an accurate representation of what happens at Regionals or Nationals.

 

"are AWSA officials at the regional and national level events paid for their work?" - Is this a serious question?

[jercrane]

I think the sport either needs to decide it's going to be totally laid back or its going to be totally structured and rigid. I don't have any first hand experience yet but reading this makes it sound like the sport is sitting on the fence. "You'll ski sometime today?" ... "sorry you're late!"

 

I can't think of another competitive sport that operates like that.

 

Whether it is right or wrong I will tell you one thing. As a newbie thinking about getting more into the competitive side of the sport this gives me pause. I'm just not a fan of sports that take themselves too seriously at the amateur level, especially one that is such a tiny niche sport. I don't need the stress for something that is never going to be anything other than a past time and passion for me.

 

Rules maybe rules but rules are made by humans. Hiding behind a rule and not being a human is sad to me.

 

 

 

 

[elr]

I wonder how many volunteer officials you lose because of the refusal to publish a reasonable schedule - people who could relieve those that are overworked and just want to be done which often results in a bad skier experience.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@mfjaegersr so exactly what should AWSA do to “fix” someone not being on site and ready to ski when its their turn?

 

Seriously it is the skier’s responsibility to be ready. Do you want to require an official to hold the hand of the supposed adult competitors and walk them from the hotel to the starting dock?

 

Event schedules are published well in advance and running orders are typically available at least the day before. There are several rules of thumb to estimate durations, but there are many factors that make events run faster or slower.

 

It is the skier’s responsibility- and no one else's - to be there on time.

[gjohnson]

The AWSA could fix the Regional tax. If a skier is qualified for Nationals and wishes not to ski Regionals, why not let a skier skip Regionals. It seems silly to have a qualification system that mandates a skier to "obtain a skiing position" in a tournament just to get to the "Big" tournament.

 

If this were the case, at least Simpson would be skiing at Nationals.

[6balls]

Agree with @gjohnson on the regional requirement...but that is not necessarily a solution...one could get scratched at Nat's.

 

What is the education on entry forms etc? Is there an email or other info to skiers that says to ask only an official re: potential timing etc.

 

Should there be better education to check-in staff whether/not they are an official...it can't be that hard to have some standard/approved scripting for them. Not to deliver that info just if asked, but to tell them the scoop intentionally whether they are a seasoned competitor or not.

 

I see the need for rules...all kinds of people could be late, then show up later needing pulled and it's a mess.

 

I vote for education and as for route...as we say in admin...one will never regret over-communication, but there will be many reasons to regret under-communication. Mail, email, entry forms, in-person.

 

If the same thing happens over and over again, it's a process problem not a participant problem. Steps should be taken so that this doesn't happen to well-meaning skiers who tried to do the right thing like @simpson

 

This sport cannot afford to risk discourage in this fashion. Props to @simpson for keeping your chin up. Go hit a nice 6-round class C weekend in your area to restore your faith in humanity.

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Some background on the EVP exception for those that think that rule should be changed: when I started in this crazy sport almost 40 years ago, there were only a couple of very specific exceptions where you didn’t need to ski regionals. i.e. you literally had to be in the hospital, out of the country on military duty, or death in your immediate family. That was it. You also had to “checkin” on site at least an hour before your event started. That meant if your event was first on a given day you had to checkin the day before. I have no idea how many people were scratched for that but I bet it is a long list.

 

The EVP exception was added years ago with the wording of “any other reason acceptable to the EVP”. Obviously that gave considerable latitude and a reason acceptable to 1 EVP may not be good enough for another, so it was a crapshoot. The “extraordinary circumstances” phrase was added maybe 10 years ago to get consistency and still require regionals participation.

 

If thats the rule anyone wants to change, by all means make a proposal to the rules committee. Just be sure to be clear on the wording, have strong rationale, gather as many supporters in your region as possible and follow through. I’m sure it will be an uphill battle.

[Zman]

Hello @Simpson

Sorry this happened to you.

Good to see you at the Bama State tourny.

And, great skiing at Ski Watch! To ski that well in one of your first tournaments is truly awesome!!

Grab @aupatking and come ski with us sometime.

Are you going to Nationals, even if just for the fun?

[ToddL]

What I find interesting about our sport is the reality that each Local Organizing Club (LOC) pretty much does things on their own and using their own check-lists and methods (personal excel skills which vary greatly) in order to comply within the rules for tournaments. Even with some of the ideas presented in this thread, there really isn't any infrastructure to ensure a new idea is implemented the same way in all regions. Each region also moves the Regionals event around so, the LOC often changes from year to year, such that a single LOC has multiple years between when they will host again. Insights, best practices, improvement ideas may not even get passed along from year to year.

 

I don't know how these other sports deal with these issues, but I suspect the event management tools (excel templates, software, web tools, standardized reports, etc.) are a key element of those sports who do it well.

 

State Championships, Regionals, and Nationals are a segment of hierarchical tournaments which should have some consistency and common infrastructure to them. That could be facilitated by a specific set of tournament management tools which address the real difficulties like event scheduling, officials scheduling, skier/official conflicts management, etc. and possibly event division start times. These issues are elevated for seeded tournaments and the hierarchy implies that consistency should be expected across all states.

 

Let's say that AWSA likes the idea of implementing minimum division start times for seeded tournaments. If they truly wanted to ensure compliance and consistency, then there should be more robust tournament management (not scoring) software distributed to all LOCs where this new change was part of the setup, configuration, and reports for publishing running orders and event orders.

[Jody_Seal]

Funny a number of years ago (maybe 5 or6)

A womens one who showed up late after her trick event had started was allowed to ski out of order. same chief official as this year.

Go figure! But rules is rules and we are sticking to rule #2!! Double tap!

[ALPJr]

Bruce - I’m trying to understand. I know these events are a huge undertaking and get that there are many factors which impact the timing, especially delays - weather, equipment, technology, etc. I don’t quite get why at this highest amateur level factors like no-shows, early falls/misses shrink the schedule? To compensate for potential delays, keep the action going? I guess that’s what leads to my question about the AWSA paying officials at reg’s and nat’s. Not talking about many needed volunteers. Talking about schedulers, judges, safety, drivers, scorekeepers. In most amateur sports the official’s fees are built into the registration fee. Would that be helpful? Edit - while I was typing @ToddL ‘s post framed it up well for me.

[PatM]

@ALPJr officials don't get paid. They get lunch, drink and maybe a place to stay. These are people traveling hours to get there to commit almost a week of their free time to be there to benefit all involved.

To your other point they are not going to stop the tournament because they running ahead of schedule. They don't know where their next delay may happen.

If I'm skiing in a regional or the nationals and I am (potentially) scheduled for 11am, I get there when the day begins at 8am because you never know what might happen. This year in the Eastern Regional my ski time got pushed back due to a tricking event that got pushed out to the next morning due to sever weather. Made my day longer but that is what can happen or it can go the other way with scratches and no shows, etc.

[ski6jones]

The big miss here was that someone in an official capacity uttered a time for the skier, and skier not knowing any better took it at face value.

 

Perhaps some verbage could be added to the online registration process about how to approach the seeded tournaments, etc. Most every entrant would at least have the info flashed in front of them. Could be emailed to them along with their completed waiver as an additional page.

[Than_Bogan]

I really don't think you guys (@Bruce_Butterfield, @"Pat M" ) are getting how "Will Not Start Before" times work.

 

The point is that they only kick in if you get to "Omg this utterly amazing I can't believe how far ahead of a realistic schedule we are running." You don't set them based on a realistic 7 minutes per skier. And, no, you don't need to set them at 0 minutes per skier, either, Bruce.

 

But consider 4 minutes per registered skier. If you get 30 skiers into your tournament and LESS THAN TWO HOURS have gone by, then you absolutely must be golden, because if you're not golden now then you would have completely #^@%ed if things had gone even remotely normally. Surely in this incredibly rare case, you can hold the tournament until 2 full hours have passed from the start?

 

Set properly, will-not-start-before times nearly never do anything at all. Only in a bizarre scenario where things run way ahead of any realistic schedule do they kick in, and that's the exact case where they also save a skier from missing a turn!!

 

I always use these for track events that I am running, and so far the number of times I've had to pause the event has been ... zero. That's also the number of people who have missed their chance to jump by arriving late.

 

Sooo, why don't we use this method for the New England Slalom Championships? Simple: We need everyone there to actually be able to run it! That's a different situation.

[dvskier]

Since you have already achieved a high level score in class C tournaments it would be wise to continue to ski a couple more tournaments in order to be sure that you qualify next year. There is an excellent class L, R tournament at Cory Pickos site in Santa Rosa Beach FL the first part of October. I’d bet that your experience would be beneficial in setting a great score there. It’s a very accommodating site with friendly folks that will help you in any way possible.

I’m not sure if any of the guys you ski with have ever been to regionals or nationals but it seems if they had that they would’ve given you some helpful advice to alleviate this sad state of affairs from ever happening. Sorry that none of your ski buddies told you how very important it is to be ready. At my first regionals I was told that they couldn’t tell me when I’d be starting and they could guess but that’s all. As many have stated there are a lot of skiers and it’s a one lake site. Any number of things can occur. If you’ll look at previous years results you’ll see that a lot of skiers either miss their gates or fall at one ball. This really speeds things up.

Thank God for the volunteers or we’d all be in “no competition “ mode. They might get meals and a room but no money. They are doing this for the love of the sport.

I wish you a fantastic ski year next year and hope that you continue to excel. It’s a tough sport and it seems like you’re tough enough to do very well at it.

[LLUSA]

@oldjeep set times are impossible but as @Bruce_Butterfield said four minutes per skier will keep you on track.@ToddL this was the 5th time in 7 years I have hosted the regionals.Everything ran like clock work and no we weren't scratching left and right as has been noted in this thread. I believe he was the only one who missed there turn out of 237 skiers.@elr this is a reasonable schedule accept responsibility and be on time no one ask you to get there at 8 but manage your adult time

[ToddL]

No worries @LLUSA, and thanks for your efforts to host so frequently!

My comments were directed at the discussion in general and regarding any region, not specifically yours. Despite the compelling context you provided, this thread suggests that there is some opportunity to ponder "can we do things better?". That is a very different question than "what did we do wrong?" which clearly is nill.

[klindy]

The “will not start before x” is far more complicated that what’s been presented here. It would be pretty simple and likely reliable to do that at a single lake, slalom tournament. But to build a schedule at a regionals/nationals isn’t a casual exercise.

 

Remember that these are three event tournaments and many times are held on multiple lakes. When the schedule is built you’re doing it without a complete list of skiers and in many cases no one has entered yet. Even so you need to estimate how many skiers will participate in each event. Typically an individual age group will ski two events one day and the third on an adjacent day. All the juniors need to be done before the Jr banquet so all the awards can be handed out (and it takes time to confirm the scores and calculate most improved, etc. so finishing 30 minutes before the banquet is a bad idea).

 

Now layer in that the fact that B1/B2/G1/G2 skiers ski at slow speeds and tend to take a lot of passes. The older groups also ski at slower speeds but take far fewer passes. Except for tricks the kids are fast and the older skiers tend to take what seems like forever. Then double check that the different events for the same age group aren’t so close together that they can overlap, instead there should be 2 hours+ between them.

 

Now that you have a perfect schedule and you’re ready for tournament week/weekend and throw in a random thunderstorm (of unknown duration), a bad injury that requires medical intervention (ambulance or helicopter ride), or something as simple as high winds that means “down and back” slalom (much less time than anticipated). Remember that a change in schedule - order of events - requires contacting every skier involved.

 

Point is there are a LOT of variables and ultimately there is a far greater chance of a tournament running late than there is of one finishing earlier than intended. We are much, much better at expanding the tournament to fill the time allotted than getting everything done early. For example, adding just 15 seconds more per pass in slalom for about 90-100 skiers can add an hour to hour and a half to the day. So unless there is a limited number of skiers and ample time available, stopping the tournament for any reason seems high risk.

 

I know for sure that I’ve been on site calling tricks after dark or rushing to get the last jumpers done as the sun disappears or pulled slalom basically afternoon dark far more times than I’ve gotten back early enough to shower and have a nice meal.

[Than_Bogan]

@klindy Don't set Will-Not-Start-Before times until you have the skier list!!

 

Other than that, everything you're listing will make the schedule go LONGER, which once again I note causes Will-Not-Start-Before times to simply be ignored. From the perspective of those running the tournament, Will-Not-Start-Before times ONLY apply when running way AHEAD of schedule.

 

Am I not saying that clearly or are people just not believing me? I absolutely could be wrong, of course, but right now I am very confused.

[klindy]

I understand what you’re saying. I’ve simply said that the process of developing a schedule (for a seeded tournament) is already much more complicated than most people appreciate. That would just be adding another layer of detail.

 

One solution would be to add “will not start before”. Another might be to eliminate the requirement to go to regionals (doesn’t solve the scheduling problem for those who do ski). Or another proposal would be to allow those who miss their ride in the running order to ski at the end of the group for a non-placement score (or even a zero score - but they skied).

 

It’s not that hard to assume 5 minutes a skier and count skiers.

[BobA]

Hey All,

 

Regarding the situation that happened at the Southern Regional’s as described on this forum thread. I am Bob Archambeau, EVP for the Southern Region. I was on site and was announcing the last two divisions that skied on Sunday. I was able to monitor communication that crossed the airwaves during this situation. I also was dock starter for a heavy majority of events held during this week and was able to observe all the dock starters that kept the tournament moving efficiently.

 

I am impressed with all the comments expressing kindness, empathy and knowledge of rules which is extremely important. Hopefully I can explain how these decisions are made and why. No quoting the rule book and these examples are real.

 

Yesterday, I reviewed all the comments on Ball Of Spray hoping to get as much additional information or thoughts as possible. I then called Ian so I could hear his side of the story and we talked this situation through.

 

The duties of a Chief Judge are to ensure all rules are followed, officials are where they need to be and most of all making sure that all skiers have an equal and fair shot at competing during their event. They also are the final decision maker when situations come up or if any procedure is challenged.

 

The Chief Judge is not responsible for checking equipment or making sure that skiers show up for their event.

 

You will find in most events that dock starters and announcers do (both to the best of their ability) inform everyone who is on the water and how many skiers left. If you followed the scores you would also have seen “Live Scoring” on waterskiresults.com. This gives anyone (on or off site) access live information.

 

Making sure that all skiers are treated equally is a huge responsibility. No favoritism or “special treatment" is allowed in a tournament situation. If you allow one person to do something different and not allow everyone you are not treating everyone equally. An example of this is getting your entries in on time. There are cut off dates or deadlines to sign up and then register. If you do not get your entries in on time you are not entered. This is a very similar situation to not being at the dock on time to ski. Basically, the deadline had passed in both situations.

 

There is a scientific principle… “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”. It not only works in physics but in most everyday matters. Last event of a 5-day tournament - what would it matter if a skier was allowed to ski at the end for credit? Up front - nothing! Did the same thing happen earlier in the tournament? If it did happen earlier in the tournament, would that be fair to skiers who are there on time and ready to ski in their event immediately after that? Would we be hurting their concentration by inserting another skier in front of them because we are being nice? What about the skiers at the end of a long day? If this happens 2 or 3 times in one day, did we create and unequal situation by having the skiers at the end of the day have a glare problem? These are real circumstances that have happened (not at this event but a lot of other events).

 

With all of this in mind, I was comfortable with the Chief Judges decision and it was a fair one. Some may support the call others may not. The call did not give any unfair advantage to any skier at this event. After listening and discussing the situation with Ian, I did not grant the exception based on the same information.

 

We did totally agree on having “ambassadors” available to help new skiers. I would also want them to be around for new skiers in the chance of a potential runoffs or in the strategy of a runoff itself. This would continue with providing an understanding of rules and when/how to use them.

 

Having a set schedule (or estimate) for every division was discussed and that one has been tried countless times - meeting with failure each time. The problem is not knowing who will scratch from the event – who may dump on their first pass or if skiing well how many passes will be run by each skier. Then you get into situations of re-rides or run-offs. Too many unknowns to calculate. A potential solution would be to limit skiers to 5 minutes (EXAMPLE ONLY!). We would then know the maximum time a skier would be allowed to ski. A horn would go off when the 5 minutes were up and wherever they were at the horn (if still skiing) would be counted. I personally don’t think that is a good idea but it does take some of the variable out of the schedule.

 

Any rule can be changed with due process but be careful to look at any or all situations that could happen. Something that sounds great in one example may not work in all situations.

 

[Than_Bogan]

I’ve simply said that the process of developing a schedule (for a seeded tournament) is already much more complicated than most people appreciate.

 

I am certain that is true, but:

 

It’s not that hard to assume 5 minutes a skier and count skiers.

 

That is exactly my point. Except change 5 to 4 and then tell the skiers and enforce it in those rare cases it is necessary.

[Than_Bogan]

Just realized that I never explicitly stated that will not start before would just be for DIVISIONS, not individual skiers. The latter is just far too much data to manage and offers little additional benefit.

[elr]

@LLUSA thank you for what you do for the sport - your site and hospitality as well as the tournaments you run are great.