Is "Edging" the the next level of stack and lean?

[Horton]

What is below is not a complete idea. This is the beginning of a thesis. I think I have stumbled on a concept that is known by the super elite and is likely useless to 99% of the skiing public. I also suspect this concept is increasingly valid at 38 and shorter – perhaps impractical for skiers not running at least 35(?).

 

For now I am going to call the new concept “Edging”.

 

Edging is a refinement on leaning and stack. Edging is the act of holding cross course direction & rolling the ski over as much as with a traditional lean but with less upper body lean.

 

I think Freddie's is the best example of what I am talking about. Shoulders are level, head is up, and his lower body is leaned away just as much as if he were in a more traditional stack. This top image of Freddie is the most dramatic image of the Edge idea I can find.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B06qcPVhiQW/?igshid=1f54sxzrheafx

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0Yos0EhRJD/?igshid=1pe8qe7o6kjq5

https://www.instagram.com/p/BztbVz6BNae/?igshid=1bt2ejl574mhi

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvAZdnAFD5g/?igshid=xvnq8nn38351

 

Joel is a more traditional stack

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjgDQygnfIq/?igshid=d2ljl2mk16p

 

Sacha in more of an Edging stance

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1BMRwxB92z/?igshid=w9hu8sjrmrm0

 

Asher and JT in a traditional stack - (not saying these guys do not use Edging stance)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZpUO_cgL8P/?igshid=h5ixjlfmkjeh

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRtoirwFXcE/?igshid=18we2iw7ixraz

 

@TFIN .... using a mild edge? Whatever he is doing it looks light and amazing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz3aTEJBVOc/?igshid=1tuxeps31wi94

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoNJkwCg8Qt/?igshid=105go7sdot49k

 

@TFIN looking more like a traditional stack

https://www.instagram.com/p/By5msbghVUJ/?igshid=1uhl7e931sfvy

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoU1nkng5sI/?igshid=1oqztwv3mrmp7

 

Manon in a is more of an edge than a traditional lean.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYOH2T1g8yb/?igshid=niix6zevrxxi

https://www.instagram.com/p/BW2k9c3g3Ag/?igshid=c2lfh9kkdph4

 

Terry doing his verson

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1eDG5RhGCR/?igshid=1gwk3ff0kjfjq

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpPPV6ygilf/?igshid=1fbvah5ebxh9k

 

So Why is Edging better? Why might this be a big deal for some skiers?

When I have been found myself in an edging position I have had all the speed angle I would with a more Lucky Lowe or Jeff Rogers style lean but with less load on my upper body AND a much less frantic feeling approaching the wakes.

[MarcusBrown]

How do I award Panda Points again?....

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown half of this concept came from your brother. If I completely misunderstand please explain.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Was it the lower half?

[MarcusBrown]

Sorry @Horton , sometimes my sarcasm doesn't come thru....

 

I think this is actually a very compelling line of thinking, and one that has a lot of grey area.

 

My initial aversion comes from prior history: I don't want people to start dropping there hips away from the boat,....the same trap folks fell into when we created West Coast Slalom. In most cases, this devolves to a butt back position, that increases the attack angle of the ski, and as a result, the load on the line.... and decreases efficiency.

 

However, I definitely believe there is a compelling case for the following: The roll angle of the ski (in concert with the trim [ski tip up or ski tip down]) and the lean angle of the skiers body, can definitely be doing different things, at different times....and in fact, the lean angle of different parts of the skiers body can, and should, be doing different things at different times.

 

I think thats the bit that contains a lot of value...and I think thats what you are getting at here, with this discussion spark.

 

 

[MillerTime38]

It’s interesting that all the skiers pictured as “edging” are in their onside lean and traditional stacked skiers are in their off side lean (offside meaning right foot forward going from odd to even buoys and left foot forward going from even to odd buoys). What do the “edging” skiers look like on their offside leans?

 

I always found it easier to accomplish an “edging” lean on my onside lean, either I am not flexible enough or athletic enough to accomplish in my offside lean, I would always find myself in a butt back position like Marcus mentioned

[Horton]

@MillerTime38 I am super inflexible but I "feel" the effect leaving off side. I would not be surprised if, on the one day where I think I really had this going, that it hardly looked different but it really felt different.

No Video proof :-(

[Horton]

Anything that results on the skier’s center of mass moving back is WRONG. I can see where you would read what I wrote above and think it was promoting some sort of squat position. I am not. I think this is a very subtle thing for most skiers.

 

Now I look at photos of Sacha and think I see him Edging but also think his mass might be farther back than it could be. In the case of @FWinter I think his mass is always forward but he has super human ankle bend so it looks like he might be back.

 

As @MarcusBrown said there are a LOT of shades of grey here. If I really really understood this I would be explaining it instead of poking you guys to talk about it.

 

I wish I had good video of @ColeGiacopuzzi when his 39 off gate is really clicking. He makes a $h*t load of speed with what looks like very little effort. His center of mass is forward and the ski is rolled over "enough" but his shoulders and upper mass are not driving away from the pylon. I have been watching this for years and wondering WTF going on there.

 

[FWinter]

Well holy shit, I think I disagree with @MarcusBrown on something. Weird day.

For me having my legs slightly closer to parallel to the water than my upper body allows me to actually put angle on the ski that I need to create speed without creating excess load. I always find that by puffing my chest out and going into the 'traditional' lean I end up leaning back more and therefore loading harder. As a heavier guy I always find over loading against Zero Off kills me off the second wake, exactly when I want least load on my body so I can change my edge efficiently.

[Than_Bogan]

@FWinter So now I actually have to pay attention to this thread!?

[theboardingschool]

I'll be honest, I haven't read 99% of this thread, as I do with most threads on here(simply due to the amount of activity). But, I don't think this is new at all. Or all that elite. I would say that I started thinking of skiing like this in the 90's. To me, being super tall and stiff is so antiquated. If things are too stiff and too aligned you can no longer gain angle. You have to allow your body to accept the pull of the boat and the push of the water. If you do this you can continually gain angle. Fred is the best at it. There are times his ass is almost on the ski after the 2nd wake. But, you do have to be balanced over the ski.

 

I remember going to training camps in the 90's and everyone was preaching the "proud look", and I was wondering what I was doing there.

 

I've also had a few glassed of wine, so who knows.

[Horton]

@theboardingschool Interesting. It is no secret that I promote the idea of "straight legs" but when we enter the realm of elte skiers I see how that is increasingly impractical. In my way of thinking straight legs is how skiers at my level and below can get their mass forward or centered. If I could use my ankles the way Freddie does I would.

[6balls]

@theboardingschool how many of us can put our ass so low to the ski like Fred? I realize he may be more the extreme and there are degrees in the middle.

 

Clearly there are different ways to skin the same cat given there are high end skiers in both styles...

 

It makes some logical sense to think that traditional stack utilizes a longer and straighter lever arm...but probably requires being lower to the water in terms of upper body to achieve the same ski attitude.

 

There is a reason that really high end snow skiers get legs parralel to the hill and hips low while keeping the body upright.

 

I see down hillers like go-karts in driving. Not a lot of horsepower so do all you can do to both achieve and maintain speed...this wins the race in similarly equipped karts.

 

This should apply favorably to slalom skiing as well. My guess is the stacked skiers require more personal horsepower, are a bit less efficient, and require more upper body movement swings around axis which increases the degree of difficulty.

 

Having said that...I'm an inflexbile rod so not all options are available to all of us...I do what I can with what I've been given.

 

 

[Horton]

@6balls I think looking at @FWinter's leg bend is deceiving. He has flexibility and strength that few other skiers have. As an old guy I do NOT want to try to copy that part of his skiing.

[Chef23]

The first thing I thought when I looked at some of those "edging" pictures was that I don't think my back could survive it. It may be efficient for a super high end skier but I think for most average joes we would wind up where @MarcusBrown warned against and for me I think it would result in a worse back than I already have.

[wawaskr]

It seems that it is hard to decipher by looking at still shots of skiers, what I have noticed over the years is that each person has their own style (while accomplishing the same fundamental technique), and then these discussion get into the *gray areas* as Marcus noted.

[Horton]

@Chef23 Edging as I try to apply it is not more stress on my back. In fact it is less load.

[Ed_Johnson]

I've played back and forth with this for years. The difference for me is that in traditional stack I lead with my lead shoulder, R going R, L going L, and with the "Edging Stack" I focus on leading with my hips.

 

The best place to try this is on the gate pullout. You have time to feel the effects of each. The problem I have is in the course where things are moving much faster. The traditional lean for me is easier to pull off. Agree with Horton, you have to be very flexible to pull off the Edging lean properly. When things start moving fast, it's easy for your hips to start dropping behind. I don't mean squat, but not in a forward leading position.

 

Bottom line, it comes down to what is the best way for you to move Mass Forward and be as efficient as YOU can be.

 

 

[bigtex2011]

Ive been told that the goal is to really block the load of the boat without losing position. That could probably look alot of different ways

[Horton]

@jercrane Comparisons between snow skiing and water skiing rarely if ever make sense in the long run. The core idea I am exploring is really about the skiers upper torso and shoulders.

 

I also suspect that that image of @fWinter is deceiving. It looks like his mass is back on the ski and I bet it is not.

[gregy]

This is something I've been noticing lately too. I disagree with Joel not doing it. Maybe not as much as Freddy.

 

 

[Horton]

@gregy hmm I see your point

[gregy]

The only reason I noticed this is because I've been forced to rethink my skiing. I'm skiing the best I've every skied using the "tall and stiff" approach as boardingschool says, but its hard on my back due to the compressive force on my spine. Plus I had a top level coach that said being more open and upright would help with my tendency to pull too long. There was a video on here of Matthew Brown that actually really got me looking at this.

[Drago]

Often what is described should not be taken 100% literally. Coaches describe in extremes so that you feel a quantifiable difference

[matthewbrown]

The first goal is getting to the wakes as quickly as possible with as minimal as possible load on the back of the ski. The second goal is to take as long as possible to bleed off this speed and transition from one edge to the other. This is usually best accomplished with higher hips which helps manage the load into the wakes and also serves to keep your body and ski on the handle path all the way out to the buoy. That being said, you can accomplish nearly the same thing in a more squatted position if in your acceleration phase your body is leading your ski, and if in a deceleration phase you are taking your sweet time to transition from one edge to another by keeping the ski on the natural handle path arc. Basically, Fred is more squatted than Nate but they are both masters of the acceleration and transition phases so it really doesn’t matter that much. The problem is that most mortals who squat, drop their hips back...Fred doesn’t.

[JackQ]

I believe often skiers over think the nuances of the sport. Counter rotate, don’t counter rotate, do this or that with your free hand, correct hand up on handle, drop your hips, don’t drop your hips, now edge don’t pull. Too much for an old man!

 

When I get in funk and start overthinking, I return to Bob LaPont’s advice, “Turn hard, but pull harder!” I.E keep your ski tip down, maintain your body position and don’t give up.

 

However I never hear much discussion one what a I think is one of the critical factors to skiing, especially real short line (39,41 and to a lesser degree 38) and can’t really been seen or practiced other than through repetitions, and that is timing. Turning in a foot too soon, or too late, changing edges a little to soon or late, all result in making a pass much harder or impossible. This often can be the difference between a good skier and a great skier.

 

All I can discern is when an elite skier doesn’t have to make adjustments, that they have great timing. I wish I knew a drill to improve this skill, as I believe my hardest makeable pass would become more routine.

 

[Horton]

@Wish you are right. all that matters is determination. talking about technique is a waste of time. maybe I will just delete this forum so you are not distracted attempts at intelligent conversation.

[Wish]

Just some levity as I saw this pic as opposite to the discussion and then some. I see some others found the humor. This thread is actually a good and welcomed discussion all recent threads considered. Keep it going please. I find myself to be in the camp of both straight stack and "edging". Just depends on which direction I'm going.

[JackQ]

Form helps, but when your skiing/form abandon you, determination goes a long way. However, sometimes too much determination and not enough form end badly.

[Zman]

Good topic.

Like @JackQ said, we can sometimes over think it. For me, in practice, I usually lose my key thought about the time water washes over my shoulders in my deep water start.

But, last couple of days I have managed to keep one thought in my passes, to keep my trailing arm stuck to my vest through the transition, out to the buoy line. When done, no more slack out of onside turns and a lot of other things get better.

Maybe this is a little off topic. But, leading up to keeping my arm in is a good stack and lean, with handle down by trailing hip.

Now, if I could only do better keeping my head up and shoulders level.

 

[vernonreeve]

@Zman I started keeping my elbow in, which helped a lot, and then I saw the Terry Winter sample lesson posted here recently showing to also keep my hands down on my waist through the transition, which helped even more.

[Skierx]

@vernonreeve I did 54 passes over last weekend working on that same thing. I already practice the gut gate . As I come through the gate trying to keep my shoulders as far away from my feet as possible as @adamhcaldwell says & @AdamCord says to keep the sternum as high off the water as possible basically the same thing. Where I've been losing all my time is from centerline to the ball. Somewhere on one of these forms I heard Caldwell mention in the transition he brings the handle to his belly button. As I watched the Terry winter video , has he come to the gate the arms are straight down by the waist and just passed centerline in the transition candle comes to the belly button arms are bent hold stat almost all the way out to the ball. This seems to be the key that all the top skiers in the world are doing very efficiently. After focusing on that portion of my run, I find myself very high on the boat and in perfect time with the belt as I finish the turn well it's pulling away from me. Huge progress lately. Ski is dialed to though. But without these fundamentals things applied ski can be dialed all it wants & still lose time.

[Skierx]

Also the adjustment that helped me from centerline to the ball was moving the boot and toe loop forward .25" and shortening the fin by quite a bit. That helped a lot but what really made the difference was staying connected to the handle by keeping it on my belly button as the ski turns down course and rope swings around the pylon much faster. Arms must be bent at that point for it to work otherwise I lose all the momentum. This is much more difficult to do then all the top skiers make it look. But I have gotten much better at it and it also makes the skiing a lot less work with better the best results.

[Horton]

bump for FlowPoint

[Live2ski]

Somehow missed this thread from earlier in the year.

It is interesting but what is also interesting is that the exact opposite (flat ski into the wakes and body away) also achieves a significant reduction in load, and looks a lot like Nate.

As a concept though it also calls for a the idea of NOT being wide and early but Accepting the swing of the rope around the pylon and following the path of deceleration to turn on time with the right (down course) speed at the bouy.

“Flatting” perhaps ???

(Love this sport!)

[Live2ski]

Hmm - my name has changed on resetting password ?

Deep11 (kevin)

[Horton]

bump for @swbca

Sorry about all the lost photos. Nothing I can do about it.

[MarcusBrown]

I repeat...can I get 2 panda points for @Horton?

[Horton]

On 8/31/2019 at 3:54 PM, FWinter said:

Well holy shit, I think I disagree with @MarcusBrown on something. Weird day.

For me having my legs slightly closer to parallel to the water than my upper body allows me to actually put angle on the ski that I need to create speed without creating excess load. I always find that by puffing my chest out and going into the 'traditional' lean I end up leaning back more and therefore loading harder. As a heavier guy I always find over loading against Zero Off kills me off the second wake, exactly when I want least load on my body so I can change my edge efficiently.

 

[Dano]

on dry land secure a handle to something. Put that handle at your hip and stand as if headed cross course in your lean.  Now try to roll your feet from flats onto edge.  If your chest is proud, legs straight, and body rigid. You will likely have no choice but to get your whole body more horizontal, pushing your feet towards the pylon and shoulders further down and away.  It can effectively roll the ski on edge if everything is very rigid and moving like a stiff plank.

Now same situation,  But instead of being rigid and driving your shoulders away just lower your hip slightly without letting the handle move from your hip.  At this point you likely bent your front knee just a little, which moved your mass forward, your upper body should have remained relatively still, and your are now standing on the edges of your ski with freedom to take a little more lean are ease up slightly as needed.  I think Dane is pretty good at this.

To be clear this is not a "to knee bend or not to kneed bend" conversation. If you watch Dane he does not ski with a lot of knee bend into and thru CL.  

[Horton]

@Dano I think the problem is that when most skiers try this they do drop their hips back. So maybe this is an impractical way to ski. Anyway, it is interesting. When I am skiing good I can do it a little on my first pass or two and it is wild. When the rope gets short, I am an old man and am going to head closer to Jeff Rogers or Lucky Low style skiing. 

[Dano]

57 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Dano I think the problem is that when most skiers try this they do drop their hips back. So maybe this is an impractical way to ski. Anyway, it is interesting. When I am skiing good I can do it a little on my first pass or two and it is wild. When the rope gets short, I am an old man and am going to head closer to Jeff Rogers or Lucky Low style skiing. 

Agree if the skier is dropping their hips back they will be much better served to simply stand tall.

I had an interesting tip that really helped me last year.  It's a little off the wall.  The tip I got was to "push the handle down your thigh as low as you can as you come into the wakes".   didn't make sense to me,  but the more i tried it the more it was working for me.

[Horton]

so I just want to be clear about this. I find this concept intriguing but it is not how I try to ski or how I advocate anybody should ski. I think some of the best skiers in the world might be pushing technique forward with ideas like this, but it's yet to be adopted by the rest of us.

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton west coast slalom approached this concept from every angle. The reality is, there's some effectiveness to the concept you are raising, but it has to be balanced with the limitations of the human body.

[swbca]

Another variation of edging . . Charlie Ross finishes his turn with and extreme amount of edging.  His hip is inches from the water and his torso is almost upright similar to the position of alpine racers.   His edging from hook up to the wake is more typical of most other great skiers.  I haven't seen other pros with a turn-edging technique as extreme as his.

I took some screen shots of Ross last season, but the screen shots are at our summer location and I can't remember what tournament it was.  I do recall it was the tournament where he got a re-ride at 39off due to boat centering.

Forget about the arms and poles, but this is similar to Charlie Ross finishing his turns.

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:03 PM, Horton said:

 

This is a common issue with a lot of skiers trying to "get their hips up" or "stand tall".  

When your loading a ski into the wakes, we have to be cognizant of how our upper mass is positioned relative to the centripetal force (load in the line).  A lot of people inherently know how to do that, and its why the are able to accelerate and ski decently well with an ass back compressed ski position.  When most people make an effort to stand tall on the ski or get thier hips up, they do it well with respect to the ski, but simultaneously losing the ideal upper mass position relative to the centripetal force.

There are a few very simple tricks to help sustain an ideal position between upper mass and centripetal force while standing in a tall, hips up stacked pulling position.   Without giving it completely away, for those curious, spend some time pulling on a rope tied to a pole and play around with how your head is positioned on your shoulders and relative to the rope/centripetal force.   You'll realize pretty quickly that moving that 8lb bowling ball on top of your shoulders ahead of or behind the centripetal force vector will significantly impact how your mass will move on top of the ski and ultimately determine your efficiency through the back of the boat during the loading phase.  

The effort/act to stand tall with hips up causes the bowling ball to move so far behind the centripetal force they fail to accelerate despite being in a good "stack". I struggled with this for a long time.  I could accelerate like crazy with my ass back, but not with my hips up.  That all went away when I learned how to position my bowling ball better such that my upper mass moved in relation to the ski to create more efficient cross-course acceleration for a given "pull" against the boat.  

[Horton]

so you're saying that thing above your shoulders is a bowling ball?

[Hucklefin]

On 2/13/2024 at 1:37 PM, MarcusBrown said:

I repeat...can I get 2 panda points for @Horton?

"When I teach edging, I usually just say to have fun with it!"

[Rednucleus]

@Adam Caldwellyikes, that brought me back to college physics and I feel my brain oozing out of my ears like it did 40 years ago!!

[Horton]

@Adam Caldwell okay joking aside. For those of us who are not as bright can you spell this out.