Will a DBW conversion ever be practical?

[Bill22]

This is a winter topic to pass the time. I think the answer will be hell no, will never be practical.

 

What would it take to convert a mechanical throttle 5.7 (GM vortec, Monsoon or other) to drive by wire?

 

Will the pieces parts needed ever be cheap enough that a company like PP could offer a conversion kit that includes all the stuff and a new master module? Ideally you would trade in your old master module and servo motor. They could refurb those and resell them.

 

I have always been curious to know how different the pull is with PP DBW vs PP mechanical? No one in my circle of friends has a PP DBW boat.

 

I think most will say “IF” you want to upgrade sell the boat and buy a ZO boat.

 

#it’sstillwinter

[Deanoski]

Just buy the latest version of Z box and go ski awesome product

[BrennanKMN]

The only DBW PP boats I have ever seen were the early promo boats right when ZO came out and those were all PP classic. Seems like most had both ZO and PP - mine did. I only put the PP gauge in for a week to see what it was like next to the ZO when I bought it. I had a mechanical PP boat with stargazer before my current boat; and I'd prefer that to DBW PP classic.

[Bill22]

@Deanoski yeah Zbox is on my list. I do have the current PP version.

 

Are you saying if you have Zbox you can’t feel a difference vs PP DBW?

[Horton]

@Bill22 It really depends on your level of skiing and if you ski tournaments. Perfect Pass works great and should not feel that different from ZO until maybe 32 off.

[BraceMaker]

I'm not certain you'd feel much different, for how people talk about the DBW boats and responsiveness has anyone documented what the response rate of the throttle body of a ZO boat actually is?

 

In auto performance it is known that many times the speed of acceleration of the vehicle is dampened by the rate at which the computer tells the throttle body to open being restricted. There are performance items like the pedal commander specifically to address this issue. So my point would be is PP mechanical technically even actually slower? Has anyone video taped the throttle butterfly rotating on a slow motion camera?

[Bill22]

@BrennanKMN I thought many of the ‘06 to ‘09 boats were PP DBW? I can’t remember when ZO became standard.

Also, I just assumed DBW was an upgrade in the response time and therefore closer to a ZO feel.

[BrennanKMN]

I know for Nautique you are correct, and most of those can be upgraded to ZO fairly easy.

 

The feel difference (I believe) comes from the different programming - RPM in PP vs. GPS in ZO.

 

If you can swap in ZO without having to do much more than some wiring and maybe an ECM flash then it is a no brainer. If your boat requires more than that I'd get Z-Box and call it a day.

[ALPJr]

This tournament’s boat had a nice throttle system http://www.sarasotahistoryalive.com/clientuploads/directory/history/articles/joe-cash-local-hero.jpg

 

[ALPJr]

This tourney’s system seemed to work too

[ALPJr]

And if you’re into newer boats this tourney had some good throttle too

[Bill22]

@Horton I don’t really care about tournament scores but I always ski 3 to 6 buoys more with ZO (22-28off @ 32mph). With that said I refuse to fall in the camp of “I need ZO.”

 

Maybe my throttle spring and steering cable are worn out. The maintenance list for spring is growing.

[The_MS]

My connections at ZO say they are wiring on the issue now.

[Jody_Seal]

They have been able to do it from the onset. Controlling the dbw mefi5 was a no brainer for them. They might have to drive a servo or stepper actuator to attach to mechanical butterfly mechanisms but I would bet lunch at Sam's club that they have already done it and have sourced their parts to bring it to market.

 

They did that years ago!

 

[Bill22]

@The_MS you’re not going to trick me with that. I know how much you hate ZO.

[swc5150]

Sorry, off topic...but wow, just watching that '86 pro tour video makes me remember why the sport was so popular back then. Freestyle jumping, dude jumping out a helicopter to foot! That's awesome stuff for a spectator!

[Ski_Dad]

@Bill22 - a few of my friends have X14's (2007-2008 era) and they have the DBW PP - it feels very similar to my Mechanical - i will say seems to lock in faster though.

 

I've had 6.5 classic on my 2003 boat (RPM based) - just bought Stargazer over the winter, and am looking to trying it out on my LS1 engine. LS1 is one engine I think could be upgraded to ZO with the right person b/c the Corvette car actually had DBW that same year, but they chose mechanical in the marinized engine.

 

Another friend has Stargazer with Zbox on his 2005 Malibu (very nice)

 

i tend to agree that if you are a 15-28 off skier any of these systems are just fine.

 

 

 

[Horton]

@The_MS your connections at ZO!?!?! I'm pretty sure they effing hate you as much as you hate them

[Lars]

I like this question, my '04 PS197 has the MCX with the cable throttle and perfect pass. My partner's '09 PS197 has the MCX as well, but with ZO.

How long is the list of parts that are different and can they be sourced?

Will at least need cats with O2 sensors, throttle body, ECM and of course ZO. Is there a long list of parts beyond that?

 

[aupatking]

@lars no cats needed, at least not for the PCM Excal (2002 and 2003 was prior to DBW).

E-Control conversion kit with throttle body, a bracket and potentiometer, E-Controls ECM, yeah all the ZO gear. It’s not cheap but I have to disagree with just about everyone, PP, prior to the v9.2 was not helpful to -15 to -28 skiers going from PP at home to ZO at a tournament. I suppose you could have the system super dialed, but if you were good enough to know exactly what you needed to get it dialed right, you probably weren’t a 15-28 skier.

I’ve been happy with the ZO in my 02 196. Very happy

[Bill22]

I have excepted Zbox is the solution. It’s still fun to talk about performance stuff.

 

@BraceMaker that’s an interesting question. I have never met @DW but I think he is a gear head, maybe he will chime in.

 

@Lars About 1-2 years ago there was a long explanation by Jody Seal about converting to ZO. Maybe the Ballers will post a link to it.

[DW]

It all depends on ones definition of practical. There are several mechanical to DBW conversions for a small block or LS GM engine although those are on the automotive and specifically the hot rod consumer since that is a pretty decent market. The hurdle is the fact that as @Jody_Seal points out the eControls ECM is the one and only matched unit for ZO, thus making the DBW conversion for a boat a single supplier endeavor. As the sanctioning body for tournament skiing is dictating a single solution the potential for competition does not exist.

 

As for the question on response and specifically response time, mechanical v DBW is not the controlling factor, it is the input signal, RPM v GPS. The other factor that seems to be getting notice (see alternate threads on the topic) is the fuel delivery method, specifically the DI engines are being noted as different.

[Jody_Seal]

I received a question from a fellow BOS member about a PCM Apex engine being able to convert to dbw. Imop yes it could be utilizing the induction hardware installed.

However. Disclaimer: I have not converted one. The Apex is a vortec sbc 1996 to 2015.

Wiring harness and ecm for a non cat excalibur along with all the proper sensors , Potentiometer and 3 bolt dbw throttle body would have to be procured and brackets either modified or fabed. Also only an assumption and again have not done it but a non cat MCX potentially could be converted utilizing the same excalibur components. Again they are small block chevy vortec also.

Could zero off offer a comparable system for the mechanical ski boats, yes they could but I think DW splained that well!

[alex38]

(I have not read every post in this thread)

 

As cool as it sounds to convert, It seems like a very technical project, I have only read about elite mechanics completing them

 

I was able to run a couple 35’s last season off a PP and a SG, that ended a long struggle and desire for change to newer, more expensive boat, or conversion project.

SG can be dialed to work if you just want to ski the crap out of buoys.

[thager]

Doesn't require an elite mechanic. If I can do it anyone, even @Horton or @The_MS could do it.

[BraceMaker]

@DW my understanding is the sanctioning body should allow multiple solutions so long as it passes technical evaluations. The ZO PP agreement forced PP out of the market but the PP equipped boat from 2007 was still in tolerance until the hull ages out so for a few years you had both.

 

In reviewing patents I see no reason that a PP running an electric motor controller would violate the ZO agreement.

 

Folks say GPS vs RPM but my question if both systems use an accelerometer to detect the steady state vs load condition and respond. I would imagine the accelerometer is way faster than any GPS refresh.

[DW]

@BraceMaker agree and to level set I have not parsed the rulebook deep enough to consider exactly what is acceptable, I was just referencing the fact that the approved boats appear to fall in to the categories I noted.

Certainly, alternate methods of speed detection and also throttle input would change the response time. Off topic example - your accelerator pedal in your car may not have a linear response to throttle pedal input in order to 'fool' the driver as to the acceleration potential of the vehicle (I have seen a ratio where 30% throttle pedal depression = 70% butterfly actuation, made people think the vehicle had 'lots of power').

[eleeski]

First, the PP servo reacts well enough to give a pull similar to ZO. The call for speed adjustment determines the feel of the pull. It is not limited by mechanical lag.

 

DBW was a severe problem for PP (in my experience). There were couple years where DBW boats were sold and ZO had not been developed. PP never interfaced well then. The ZO did interface well when it was introduced - makes sense since the ECM is made by the same company that makes ZO.

 

The Nautique 200 engine that I put in the American Skier had it's DBW unit in the engine compartment. (I actually damaged it while fitting the engine cover and replaced it. Very easy project.) A conventional throttle cable drives the unit. And it is compatible with a PP servo for a quality ride.

 

Eric