What separates the men from the boys

[ghutch]

What separates those skiers getting into and through 38 vs those stuck at 35? For the last couple of years I have run 35 more and more but still only maybe 10-20 % of the time. 32 is a pretty easy pass and I rarely miss it but 35 just isn't going down like I want it to. I will say I received a c-75 this winter and actually feel 35 is going to be more attainable this summer the few times I have ridden it over the winter actually running 3 @ 35 right out of the box on it and the pass once. Denali ROCKS!!! Thoughts?

[skispray]

Athletic ability, money, and time on the water, especially as a child. There are exceptions to the latter. I don’t believe there are any exceptions to the first item. If people tell you they’re an exception they’re probably being modest. If there are any exceptions, then they have enough time and money to be getting excellent skiing and coaching opportunities consistently. This probably isn’t what you’re looking to hear but we all need a minimum of one of these things in order to move up.

[The_MS]

Vision/Timing. What you see in front of you and how/when you react to what you see. If you can run 32 you can run 38

[Skirvind]

@ghutch the answer is different for each skier. If you want a general answer since you can run it. I'd say quite upper body, and handle control during perturn are important. Post a video to get ideas that will directly relate to your skiing.

[Horton]

9 times out of 10 skiers who can run 32 but not 35 need to work on stack more than anything else.

[Wish]

Video would be great. Generally speaking though, a couple things.

 

1. You can get your body outside the turn ball at 32 creating a certain visual. Not so much at 35 and 38. You have to visually be ok with just the ski rounding the ball and your visual (and the rest of you) being on the inside. Trying to get the same visual as 32 prob means you're pulling to the shore and well past CL to get "you" outside the buoy at short line. This causes all sorts of havoc. Critical at set up and for gates.

2. Everyhing is happening faster at 35/38. You have to process things much quicker then 32.

 

The c-75 will help greatly. Sounds like it already has ?

 

In short, MS is correct. If 32s are going as they should (check that on your videos) 35 and perhaps 38 is doable. And what you see in front of you, how and when you react is critical at short line...especially gates.

 

 

[The_MS]

The key is to keep it feeling slow and in control. A good Gate and 1 will help start that in control feeling.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

The answer is simple. Exactly how to achieve it is the hard part

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/home-page/tech/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control

[JackQ]

Body position, Body position! If you have good body position (Horton's stack) you can have a plethora of short comings.

 

If you cant run at least mid 35, you need to work on your 32s, not to run them but to run them in proper position and with space at the buoys, not wide but space ahead of buoy.

 

No, you don't have to start as a child, I never ran a course until 23 yrs old, and in three years time could run 35@36, but very rarely. I didn't find 35 a major barriers, running it consistently was a considerable barrier. For me 38 was the brick wall, where you need to graduate from algebra to geometry, its all about the angle.

[Nando]

All of the above are correct but the first time I was ever in the boat with really top-level skiers- BLP and Geoff Carrington (nice name-dropping, eh?)- what impressed me was their intensity and focus. Until they skied, it was like being with my regular ski buddies, but once the switch was flipped, there was a very perceptible difference.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

Like @Skirvind said a lot of the time it's different for every skier. From what I see a lot coaching is the gate that usually sticks out the most to me. It's more of an after thought and isn't getting the attention it needs. The way I look at it is the gate is cause and effect. What we do there translates into the course so if we can fix the cause, it helps clear a lot of those mistakes within the course. I think that's why there's that wall at 35 because its the pass where Being wide, handle position, vision, timing, being centered on the ski, load, etc.. all of these become more critical. Even when I'm skiing my best my main focus 80% of the time is on the gate it can always be better.

[bishop8950]

Nice @ColeGiacopuzzi Agreed. I often coach “if the start and one ball isn’t awesome, don’t worry about the rest of the pass”. And as I start to go up the rope every spring, it’s the gate that needs tuned up to run the next pass. Gate only.

 

Where I see people getting stuck at 35 is not focusing enough on how we swing side to side. Generally in a hurry to finish too soon, which kills you after 32.

[A_B]

If you look at video of you against the "men" and some top "girl" skiers, more than likely you are still on a pulling edge when they are already on a turn edge and getting the ski behind the handle sooner in the pre-turn phase.

 

Pay real close attention to how they attack the wake and what they do right behind the boat into the transition into the turning phase. If you can duplicate that, you too can ski like a "man".

[6balls]

@horton agree on stack. Also if stacked well the boat will give you more energy and swing at shorter lines...so I don't pull as hard. I think of it more as blocking or resisting if I'm in good position out of the ball. You don't have to "amp up" for that shortline pass, you need to be technical.

 

@bishop8950 agree. It's hard to describe in a way that makes sense for most. Finish too soon while too high on the boat and you are turning into momentary loose line which is a pass killer.

 

At earlier lines, I'm taking the back off the ball. At 38 the ball slips under my hip right before I finish--I'm already in the motion as the ball goes by so the delay is subtle. Almost like a musician playng just off the beat for effect.

 

There is also a little bit of travel inbound from my momentum alone, then the rope picks me up for the work to/thru the wake...whereas longer lines I have the rope tension right away out wide off the early finish at the ball.

 

Great skiers may describe it differently, and may poke holes in what I've written but it got me to where 35 became a very seldom missed pass and 38 fell on 5 lakes and 3 different speed control systems including ZO (charley 3 please)in my best year.

 

 

This despite my other obvious short-comings like labeling the two ball and the four ball, pulling too hard...giving up the handle too soon, posing with my arm hanging out, and hanging on to everything always. A set of 6 deployable and releaseable parachutes would be great for me. At skiwatch one year @MS was announcing and I crushed my opener well over-skiing it. MS was like don't you worry folks, his two and four always look like that!

[UCFskier]

Hey @ghutch

try changing the variables you can control. if your running 35 with good times (ie 34 mph) try slowing the boat down to 32.5 or 33 mph. gradually increase the speed after working on position without the scramble we all get at later line lengths. also very effective to use a small section of rope to give you a better feel of the speed into the bouy without the hurry up pressure.

 

try these next season and Im sure you will be crushing deep 38 in no time!!

[matthewbrown]

Athletic ability and quality time on the water with a great coach.

[Jody_Seal]

Money! What else?? Got to pay to practice and it cost money to run 38 off and beyond!

[ghutch]

All great suggestions guys. Thanks so much for your answers. I will definitely give these suggestions a shot. I was really wondering what has gotten you through that barrier and also if thats where most everyone experiences that "hump" of running shortline. What about 38? I have turned 4 ball before and it felt like a perfect unison of being in time with the boat and really easy. Excitement got the best of me sadly.

[scoke]

@ghutch

 

Your arms are bent across the boat.

Your shoulders are tilted across the boat.

Your hips are dragging across the boat.

 

Pick two of the combination.

 

Prove me wrong, post video.

 

[MarcusBrown]

One Fundamental thing separates the men from the boys: If you are not at least semi-proficient at smearing your ski on command (controlled skid without falling off the back of the ski), you have little chance of ever consistently running 38 off.

 

You can carve your way thru 35....at 38, that no longer works.

 

The rest of the stuff is just details.

[Zman]

@MarcusBrown

Great point. Can you please elaborate on what you see as key fundamentals or technique needed for smearing your ski on command?

What does a skier do different, or better to move from carving turns to more smear?

[wawaskr]

@MarcusBrown I completely agree, and one of the reasons I moved away from HO skis. They always seemed to want to ride their own line, and you could never make them smear on demand. Is the new Alpha designed in such a way to allow the skier to do this?

[ghutch]

@scoke I'm going to go with hips dragging and shoulders probably tilted. Still struggle with getting them up but they are improving. Thx

[Adam Caldwell]

@scoke - "shoulders tilted across the boat" - why it is bad? Hips dragging I agree with, and elbows bent I am about 50% on board with....

 

@MarcusBrown - no lie - at first even myself was a bit "lost" with that statement Correct me if I'm way off, but are you speaking to the point of controlling the slip/rotation of the ski into and through apex in absence of a perfect connection with the line?. For instance, when trying to salvage a pass that started off poor timing on the boat?

 

[MarcusBrown]

@Zman its hard to sit down and make enough time as of late, to answer these questions thoroughly. I'd just say that there are a couple key things that allow a skier to proficiently smear: 1. Understanding the ideal path they should be on, and why appropriate yaw (non-tracking of the ski) at the right time, is ideal. 2. Ski setup. To @wawaskr 's point, some skis (and ski setups) are more free to yaw or smear than others. @wawaskr the Alpha has proved to be a bit more "free" in that regard, relative to the Syndicate Pro. But the Omega is definitely a ski to test as well, if that's what you are looking for.

 

@adamhcaldwell I've found that 38 seems to be the breaking point for carve vs smear, or tracking vs yawing, into and out of apex. This is, of course, dependent on the height of the skier, but the general reality is that 90% of skiers probably cannot run 38 off without some form of a controlled smear just prior to and through apex.... Even when a pass starts with perfect timing and there is nothing to salvage, the physics and geometry of the slalom skier moving through a slalom course make it next to impossible to complete all 6 using only a carved turn. Now, factor in the human element at the start of the course, and you realize that almost no one will get consistently perfect starts, every single pass....which gets to your point: without the skill of smearing, a skier will almost never be able to consistently run 38, perfect start or not.

[6balls]

@MarcusBrown for those of us who have 38 as their most difficult pass...meaning I've never run 39, how important is it to set up the ski to smear better at 38, and deal with a less ideal set up on openers and mid-passes?

Probably a mistake but I've most often played with set up from 28-35, but that's because I'm a more consistently well positioned skier at those lines. It's hard to test a lot of 38 when I only make all 6 20% of the time...but want to improve on that 20%

[Ed_Johnson]

A long time ago, Andy Mapple emphasized to me the importance of setting up the ski for 38 and accepting what it does at 32 and 35. He was quite emphatic about that point. Fortunate for me I was on a Mapple Ski without a great degree of difference.

 

 

[Wish]

Best set ups I’ve ever had were setting that felt worse at 28 and 32 then 35 and 38.

[liquid d]

Skis lie to you through 35.

[Adam Caldwell]

A carved turn is something happening with minimal amount of slip. Like a snow ski on a hard edge in very firm snow.

 

No disrespect to anyone out there, however, for me personally, concepts of 'carving' and 'smear' are not in my ski vocabulary as they really don't seem to fit into my mental model of skiing.

 

What does make sense to me is 3 dimensional rotation & slip. IE, pitch, roll & yaw rotations constantly changing as the ski slips indefinitely along the surface of the water.

 

Understanding 3 dimensional rotation (of both the ski and the body) and how it plays into our ability to accelerate and decelerate our mass to productively swing around the pylon AND navigate 6 turns is hugely important to figuring out short-line.

 

Given boot, fin and wing combinations, there are a lot of different ways to change a skis dynamics on the water - but obviously not all are going to be productive for us.

 

Short-line ski setups must be free to rotate under higher velocities. In addition they must accelerate faster into CL and also decelerate faster once your at the top of the swing.

 

This is why what feels good at 28 can feel very difficult at 38. At 28 the ski doesn't need to accelerate as quickly as for 38, - it doesn't need to travel as fast through CL, it doesn't have to rotate as quickly after the second wake, nor decelerate as aggressively before the turn.

 

Conversely a ski setup for 38+ used at 38 can feel slow, stuck and like a lot of work or something that doesn't turn. This is why you see most shoreline skiers being very aggressive at the longer line lengths...they have to be to keep the ski moving fast enough to do what it needs to do, otherwise, it will likely 'stall' or hang up in a turn.

 

Worth pointing out given this conversation.....at different line lengths, there are huge differences in the 'direction' we are being pulled by the boat into center. - Short line does more for the skiers acceleration toward CL then longer lines. At longer lines we are much further behind the boat (meaning less angular displacement away from CL) and so we get less 'cross course' pull from the boat.

 

Another way to look at it is, at short-line, we are accelerating into CL from a 45deg postion on the boat to 0deg (at CL) with a relatively high initial potential energy at the finish of the turn, whereas at 28off it might be more like 25 degs to 0deg with much lower initial potential energy.

 

[TEL]

@adamhcaldwell so at what point is fin tuning or binding placement needed 35 off? 38 off? What needs to be done? Move fin forward, back, shorter, longer, shallower, Deeper? For myself 22-28 off my ski works very well. I am working on 32 off, I am sure the problem is me but would a little ski tuning help at this point, if the ski is working at longer line lengths?

[MarcusBrown]

For me, after a 25 year evolution of learning to apply fundamental physics principles to water skiing, that journey has led me to where I am now - trying to explain the complex nature of slalom skiing, in the simplest terms possible.

 

I DO believe a precise understanding of what the hell is actually happening (in 3D space, using proper kinematic terms and analysis') is a necessary prerequisite for the coach (and skiing aficionado), to then be able to dictate/articulate that to the skier.

 

However, to relate the real-world "complexities of what is happening" in a way that gets a skier to address a fundamental deficiency on the water....I am of the opinion that the simplest and cleanest of explanations, are the holy grail...in terms of evoking consistently positive change in a skiers performance over time. That is what "we", as coaches (and skiers), should be striving for....especially when we are trying to identify a single factor that separates the men from the boys.

 

So for me, pitch/roll/yaw in 3D space, can be simplified (for the purposes of what separates those that can consistently complete 38 off from those that cannot) into 2 types of turns: Carving turn = a term describing a situation where the ski tracks an arc through the water, in which the tail of the ski closely follows the path of the shovel of the ski....i.e. the ski is "pointing" the direction it is traveling. Its a simplified term, because a water ski never truly tracks, due to the fundamental nature (density) of water. Smear turn (or Stivot) = a turn where the ski is actually steered or pivoted into a direction such that the ski is now "slipping" - i.e. the ski is not pointing the direction the ski/skier is traveling.

 

Also, I DO think there is an awful lot of conflated or misinformation floating around out there about things that have less than a 0.2% ROI when properly optimized. I'm willing to bet there are literally a handful of skiers in the world (if that) who, in a double blind study, could tell the difference between ZO settings or octane level in the fuel. The majority of the ROI for a skier wanting to improve, rests in 3 things: Improvement of technique or body mechanics, ski setup optimization and mental approach. **with the factor of overall fitness and health being a fundamental prerequisite or "ante" to even be able to play the game at all.

 

 

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown that my friend is wisdom

[Horton]

Getting lost in the weeds is fun and interesting but for so many skiers it is totally counter productive. The quest for knowledge is great until it clouds focus on core fundamentals.

[The_MS]

@MarcusBrown I would agree that nobody can take the ZO test and pass but most higher level skiers can tell when they are out of sync with the system.

You are spot on with the rest

[JackQ]

Marcus! Finally someone else that agrees on ZO settings. Around the 2nd year of ZO, I had Lee Mershan drive me, and change the settings between A1 and C3 randomly (without telling me) between back to back passes at 35 and 38. Even going between these extremes I wasn't sure if I can tell the difference other than the passes that what I thought were C3, I felt I was getting more effective acceleration out of the buoy, if I had didn't rush the turns. I have at times skied with my wife's setting of A1 vs B2 which I use, and never knew until I got in boat and the driver told me.

 

 

 

 

[TFIN]

@MarcusBrown FINALLY. Your first post on this topic had me scrambling, but your last post, thank you

[AdamCord]

I don't disagree with everything that has been said so far on this subject, but I do come at it as someone who vividly remembers fighting this battle. Not as a young kid who was taught by a great coach, but as an adult figuring out what works for me, and studying every top skier I could.

 

I've seen many skiers that can hammer a turn (slipping and not carving) as good or better than many 38off and shorter skiers, who can't run 35. In fact slamming a turn like that is the only reason they can run the scores they do. What those guys are missing, however, is speed and connection. How do you get speed and connection? BODY POSITION.

 

Body position in the pull is absolutely what separates the men from the boys. If you ski with your butt back, are hunched over, your chest is facing the water, etc, you aren't running 38, PERIOD. Whether you want to call it stack, hips up, body alignment, balance, whatever, that is where the jump from 32 to 35, and then especially 35 to 38 separates skiers.

 

Plenty has been written about how to achieve stack and a strong position. I don't need to go into detail about that here. In the end this goes back to simple geometry of a skier swinging around a pylon. As the rope gets short you need more speed into centerline, and you need to be in position to stay connected with the handle as you swing up around the boat. You do that part well and I don't give a damn what your turns look like, you will run some buoys.

 

Beyond that...do the details matter? Sure. ZO settings matter. Whether your boat is running right (yes octane levels can be part of this) matters. Driving is a big deal. Ski setup is huge - give me overly stiff bindings and a bad ski setup and I can't keep my hips up to save my life. So my suggestion is experiment, watch video of yourself, and figure out what it takes to get into a strong and stacked position.

[MarcusBrown]

@6balls there is definitely a need to optimize the ski for shorter line dynamics, if that is the goal. Skis that feel perfect at your first couple passes are usually not fully optimized for shortline geometry. Again, I think it should go back to a basic understanding of what the actual end goal is for shortline performance....a ski that allows you to effectively Stivot (steer/pivot the ski into a yaw or slip orientation into apex) without requiring an abundance of foot pressure input to make that happen, becomes a key factor in being able to maintain the optimal path into and out of apex, at shortline.

 

@AdamCord Great points! I apologize for the confusion on my original comment: I was assuming body position was already a given....."If you are not at least semi-proficient at smearing your ski on command (controlled skid without falling off the back of the ski)" i.e., if you "hammer a turn" as you pointed out, but lose position (fall off the back of the ski), then obviously 35 (and 38) are probably out of the question. To take it a step further, you are correct: if you do not first follow the rules of physics, and put your body in a stance and position to properly accept the forces through your feet and shoulders, then the rest is mute. That should be a fundamental assumption, as acceleration (development of speed, which results in angle cross course) is fully dependent on body position and force alignment/generation.

 

Assuming the above, the better a skier can Stivot (control and command the ski into various degrees of yaw/slip) the more consistent they will be at achieving and staying on an optimal path without excess slack, especially as the line gets shorter and the shape of the turn at apex is necessarily a tighter and tighter radius.

 

And yes, details do matter: quality control of all the initial starting parameters is key (ZO setting, good driving, ski/binding setup, etc...). AND, some of these parameters can be highly individualistic, so by all means, experiment and tweak until you fall into the settings you like (and until you find a driver that drives good enough that you don't notice them as a factor). BUT, once you find those initial starting parameters, lock them in, and try not to obsess about them. The additional improvements that can be gained by tweaking beyond that point, pale in comparison to the gains that can be made by focusing on fundamentals: technique/body mechanics, ski setup, mental and physical game.

 

 

[AdamCord]

@MarcusBrown I had to go google some Ted Ligety videos to know what you were talking about- for sure the stivot is used extensively by top water skiers. In fact I would suggest this is what separates the elite of the elite (Mapple, Parrish, Smith, etc.) from other top skiers - they stivot more and earlier than others.

 

In slalom we have a lot of chicken and egg problems, i.e. you need a strong pulling position to create ski yaw early, and early ski yaw helps you finish your turn in a strong position. Likewise a better ski and binding setup will make it easier to ski with good technique. One of these days I'd love to do a back to back video of a top pro riding a bad setup...you can turn a pro into a wally pretty quickly.

 

One aspect we may have different viewpoints on - and maybe this is just anecdotal based on who I ski with and talk to - is that I don't think people are doing enough experimenting. Again and again I see skiers who never adjust their equipment or make any meaningful change to their technique, but ski the same way over and over again hoping to improve. If you aren't trying something new, how do you expect to improve?

 

Can this be taken too far? Absolutely, and I'm probably more guilty of that than most. But I'd rather ski poorly for a month and learn a lot about fin settings or technique than ski the same for that month and never learn anything that might help me.

[Horton]

@AdamCord So you are saying it is a good idea to radically change your fin settings between rounds at a cash prize event?

[AdamCord]

@Horton I don’t know anyone stupid enough to try that

[Zman]

@AdamCord Hmmm. Think a little harder!

BTW, I am so glad this discussion and the one on "Connection and Swing" are on here. You and others sharing some great stuff!

[markn]

Agree completely ski set up becomes increasingly more important the shorter the line. I have been dialing in a new ski and thought I was close, (worked for 32 and 35, but 38 was a struggle and not at all consistent). A second set of eyes from a Syndicate Pro Team member (Thanks J.T.!) adding more smear for 38 brought the ski under the rope where as my set up stalled at mid turn and then I had to push it around to complete the turn causing me to lean back.

Big believer in the wisdom contained in the Fin Whisperer to get the set up close...then having a Pro evaluate the set up and make any final adjustments. They are pros for a reason!

 

 

[Zman]

@markn. What tweak added more smear at 38 for you?

[RichardDoane]

@horton I'll trade you skis for the next tournament round.....

[MarcusBrown]

@AdamCord that's good stuff. Agree for sure, especially with the chicken/egg reality. Makes for an incredibly difficult puzzle to solve....

 

Which is where this forum really shines, in my opinion, by giving people a reputable place to learn from a variety of experts on how to tweak, test and optimize their ski setups, body position/technique, objectives (on and off the water), etc...

 

Internal optimization (technique, ski setup, health/fitness, overall objectives, etc..) should be an ever-evolving iterative process...

 

I just feel that external optimization (ZO revisions/settings, octane, rope elasticities, pylon heights, etc...) are often too easy to become distracted by, and if people aren't careful, they are much more enticing than the "Internal" factors, and they can easily slip down the rabbit hole.

 

Also, if/when COVID-19 has come and gone, you and @adamhcaldwell should make a trip out here to The Ridge for some lake time with @twhisper and I.

 

[markn]

Zman, working on a 67 inch Syndicate Pro. ( weigh 185 and ski @34 mph) Stock settings are: L: 6.875 D: 2.49 DFT: .75

with binders at 30 inches. I moved to L: 6.835 D: 2.475 DFT: .75 and boot at 29.5 inches.

The ski just kind of stalled at mid-turn on the off-side and I had to push it to completion. Moved DFT: .765 Big difference.

Again, J.T immediately picked up what I was feeling after watching 2 passes and made the very positive change.

[markn]

Sorry...no idea how the smiley faces got in there!

[Ed_Johnson]

@markin...Your computer probably has a Virus !!!