Helmets for slaloming?

[pregom]

Well, it happened. After countless hours of slaloming, one OTF fall left its mark with a 5 cm cut on top of my forehead. Which got me thinking... if I had a simple bike style helmet, most likely I would be here without the stitches I have. Has anyone considered helmets? Other sports didn't have any helmets in the past, for instance professional bikers at the Tour de France or Giro d'Italia, or snow skiers of all levels (downhill racers aside). There were lots of controversies but now you hardly see an athlete without one. Could slalom skiing too be safer with a helmet?

[pregom]

btw, I didn't set the category of this post correctly and now it shows up in "Boat Talk". I don't see how to change that if I try to edit my post. Oh, well.

[Wish]

Personal choice. Wear one if you like. I choose not to. I’ve witnessed a teenager get her front teeth knocked out at nationals after her ski came off. Should we wear mouth guards too? It’s a dangerous sport for sure. Take what ever precaution you deem necessary.

[Rednucleus]

Just wondering if a helmet could increase the risk of a neck injury as it gets grabbed in the water during a fall? Darned if you do, darned if you don't ....

Looking forward to physician and PT folks input on this topic.

[Than_Bogan]

Personally I would never ski in the slalom course with a helmet on. There are so many relatively common falls where it could turn a few random cartwheels into a broken neck.

 

Unlike on a road, there is almost nothing solid to hit in a water ski crash, so the value of impact protection is small. But there IS a boundary at which the resistance changes by orders of magnitude, so the danger of the water "grabbing" the helmet is (by comparison) large.

 

As always, assess your own risks and act accordingly. But for me, my choice is clear.

[Chef23]

When I first met @JoelHowley he was slaloming with a helmet on and he no longer does. I have never worn one and haven’t felt the need. I do know someone who has had some concussion issues that wears a soft wrestling type of headgear for extra protection. My son had a concussion water skiing years ago and I have no idea if something like that would have helped.

[Edmund]

I took a bit of a tumble in the course around five years ago resulting in my ski slicing a nice sized gash on top of my head. The emergency room physician used eight staples to close it up. I researched helmets for a while looking for a very low profile one that would not grab water upon falling, but did not find one I liked. Not sure if I would have actually purchased and used one, though. I am hoping that injury was just a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. :D My only concerns while driving myself to the hospital were (1) when will I be able to ski again? (one week) and (2) I hope they don't shave a big bald spot in my hair (which they didn't).

[pregom]

@Than_Bogan good point about the water possibly grabbing a helmet in the wrong way. And I understand it’s a personal choice, I’m asking for feedback, pros and cons, have helmets been used or considered, etc

[pregom]

@Edmund same thoughts. I drove myself to the hospital and when I was all patched up I asked the doctor what’s next. He said not get it wet for 24 hours and to take it easy for a few days.

 

PS They didn’t shave my hair at all.

[ALPJr]

Ouch! Agree with @Rednucleus more risks with helmet..

[ski6jones]

I thought about a face protector after taking a ski tip to my upper lip last year, 5 stitches. Half inch either way would have trashed my nose or teeth. I've seen basketball players wearing them, clear plastic covering. Not really head protection though.

[chrislandy]

If I were to wear a "helmet" it would be more of a rugby skullcap rather than an actual helmet, protects against perforated eardrums from side falls and would give minor protection against "rubbing" of things

 

my son will be wearing one once he starts slaloming

 

[skialex]

Helmets for slaloming? Over my dead body...

[Than_Bogan]

@chrislandy Neat! What is that? While I would not personally choose to wear that, I would consider it if I had a history of concussion and/or eardrum problems, as that model seems a fair amount less likely to drag dangerously.

[ScarletArrow]

You see a lot of HS American football players wear the padded skullcaps when they participate in summer camps with light contact.

 

My 10yo son just took a nasty fall yesterday at a tournament. Released from his Reflex and bounced off the water. Got his bell rung. Would this have helped? I don’t know.

[liquid d]

cons far outweigh any pro

[BraceMaker]

I think ear drums are the most common head injury

[Keith_Menard]

what is a cm?

[pregom]

@chrislandy I like your suggestion. I might consider it. I don’t have a history of concussions but this OTF really bummed me out.

[Edmund]

@chrislandy That seems to be a good option that I did not consider. Once you get the $800+ bill from the hospital (after insurance pays it part), it makes you think about using one.

[Edmund]

@pregom With blood steaming down my forehead, I wanted to be polite so I asked my ski partner if he wanted to ski his set. He had driven an hour to the lake and had not skied yet. Since he works at the VA hospital and is much wiser than me, he respectfully declined. :D

[chrislandy]

@Edmund I don't know what they would be called in the US, we use them in the UK for scrums in rugby. Mainly to protect the ears in the scrum and head from boot stud scrapes - they are only £30 here so well worth it imo

 

They are just neoprene

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008PQX0L2/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_vgEaFb6Z09CF8

[pregom]

@Edmund fortunately I skied last, so only my run was cut (pun intended :smile: ). And I had just started, it was only my 3rd turn.

[pregom]

The type of head guard @chrislandy suggested is available in the US from several sources, from a quick search on Amazon for "Rugby Head Guard". For instance, this one.

[OKSkier]

Just some thoughts

THere are 6 skiers in our group and all but one wear helmets. If you buy a watersports helmet there is nothing for the water to 'grab'.

Gives much more impact protection when hitting the water hard. Also solves eardrum and head through handle issues.

 

[skialex]

Ok it doesn’t have to be a rugby helmet. Jobe makes a soft shell helmet for Watersports, I have two friends using it mostly for the cold in the winter time but also for protection.

Personally don’t like looking like a buoy...

 

[pregom]

If I look for Jobe water sports helmets, I come up to a bunch of wakeboard hardshell helmets. I can't find the soft shell helmets @skialex refers to.

 

Also, somebody else sent me a link to this Gath Surf Convertible helmet. Made in Australia and available on Amazon and other sites in the US.

 

Lastly, searching for waterski helmets made me find this old link to the same subject. Interesting.

[skialex]

@pregom did a search now. Found some at UK Amazon, UK eBay and jobesports.com. Search for “jobe soft shell helmet”

[Edmund]

@OKSkier What helmets (brand/model) do the five skiers in your group use?

[dwfrech]

Hi @Pregom: I started trick skiing a couple of years ago. When I would crash, sometimes the ski slid toward me and hit me. I got cut on my head two separate times. So I bought a helmet. I like it. It doesn't affect my balance or feel like I'm confined when I wear it. It can't protect your teeth if you get hit in the mouth, but that's another problem. It is made by Triple 8, is for skateboarding but I bought it at a surf shop. I just dry it out after I go skiing. Have used it for two years and it is holding up. Also you can get one for about $60 which was a lot cheaper than surf helmets. Thought I would let you know.

[unksskis]

Helmets use on water is a highly debated topic for cable wakeboarders. Regular helmets will protect against hard objects, but actually increase the surface area of your head's impact on the water, and even when properly fitted, your head/brain impact to the inside of the helmet. In my opinion, helmets don't help against water, and likely increase head/brain injury.

[OKSkier]

@Edmund I had a Jobe and now have a Liquid Force. Its awesome. I believe there is another liquid force and one fella uses a snow ski helmet.

Just a note, if you have hit the water at 55mph cutting across the wake the water is a hard object - feels like concrete.

 

[OldboyII]

There are two different types of accidents -

1) head is hitting hard object

2) head is hitting water surface

First scenario is a damage of flesh and tissue outside the scull.

Second - brain damage (due to negative acceleration) inside the scull.

If first - head protection may help.

If second - helmet could make it worse.

[pregom]

Lots of issues to consider, I realize. Thanks to all of you for your comments. Some of the concerns, though, may need better scientific validation/testing. @OldboyII could you elaborate on why a helmet may be worse in your second scenario?

[unksskis]

@pregom The helmet increases the surface area, and becomes an object your head is then hitting. The helmet takes the impact and stops, your brain does not. Your brain and actual head will take that impact internally, thus actually making it worse impact. Wakeboarders don't wear them outside the cable park (as they are required there). Do divers wear hard shelled helmets?

[chrislandy]

@unksskis I have to disagree with your conclusions, wakeboarders are mandated to wear helmets at wakeparks because there is a huge chance that they are going to crack their noggin on ramp/slider/kicker or even board = grey matter or red stuff all over everywhere.

 

If a helmet is well designed and fitted, the cushioning inside should slow the rate of the impact forces.

 

IMO the rugby style skullcap is pretty much perfect, well fitting, reduces the chances of perforated eardrums, minimal increase in surface area, ribs to break the water tension on crashing, protects against the odd brush with a ski tip/side and keeps your head warm on those cold cold mornings :)

 

 

Years ago, when I was wakeboarding, I had the biggest crash I'd ever taken (one of those where you're not sure which way is the surface and it seems like minutes before you make it to fresh air), I had a minor rib fracture - IMO I was luckily wearing an impact vest that had raised strips and nobbles that broke the surface tension and reduced the impact, Otherwise it could have been much worse.

[unksskis]

@chrislandy agree, the helmet is necessary at a cable park due to the obstacles and hard objects. We actually take them off if allowed while doing air tricks. Not a single advanced wakeboarder wears a helmet when going behind a boat.

 

I agree the rugby style looks like it will work better, and is a good option I never considered. Can't wear that at the cable park though. I am speaking solely on the hard plastic, skate style helmets, and personally having my skull hit the inside of my properly fitted skate style helmet. Helmets do not protect against water impact as much as they may increase impact. High divers do not wear hard shell helmets, or any at all that I can find.

[mikegile]

 

I used one of these when helmets were mandated for jump. Enough protection for contact with a ski without increasing the surface area of your head in case of a head first impact. Plus no overhang for a "bucketing" catch that torques the neck.

 

Used it for slalom after a broken eardrum episode. Produced a little wind noise, but not bad.

[mikegile]

Gath is the name of the company. Think they are out of Australia.

 

[pregom]

yes, @Mike Gile, Gath is made in Australia (where surfers ride huuuge wakes) and can be found on Amazon and other sites in the US. See one of my earlier post in this discussion.

 

I tend to agree that rugby style helmets may be a good compromise and the Jobe Sport model seems to be made for watersports. I wish there was more scientific data to support some of the statements made here.

 

As for the argument that nobody is using a helmet when doing activity [fill-the-blanks], I don't buy it: 20-30 years ago nobody was using a helmet when snow skiing and look around now.

[chrislandy]

@pregom I found this while doing a bit of research on it, it's more bias towards wakeboarding but I found it an interesting read

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12283-020-0321-6

 

conclusions

Though water sports helmets did increase some injury metrics (such as head acceleration, HIC, and cervical spine compression), the metrics remained below IARVs and the likelihoods of injury remained below 1%. Head-first water impacts were more likely to produce cervical spine injuries when compared to falls that produce bucketing. If additional development on water sports helmet standards or design is undertaken, the data above do not support sacrificing impact attenuation for additional venting to prevent bucketing. The testing does not support the supposition that water sports helmets would increase the likelihood of head or neck injury in a typical fall during recreational water sports.

 

Reading through the data, head on (compressing spine) and a rear fall (whiplash type) showed an increase in forces but not significant to cause injury up to circa 50mph

[Billbert]

I have been wearing a full face helmet for 5 or so years now after an OTF crash that introduced the tip of my ski to my face. The ski won, crushed the right side of my face and blew out my orbital cavity. The result was 3 separate surgeries, a month or so in the hospital and lingering vision problems with the one eye. I have had a couple of good crashes since then and have not noticed any interaction of the helmet with the water during a tumbling fall....I do think about it though

 

To each their own. I cant bring myself to ski without a helmet now (not sure a second repair of my face would take!) My kids are now starting to slalom and they will wear helmets. I don't believe their use will ever be mandated. I found the above article interesting even if it doesn't set me completely at ease.

 

 

[pregom]

The article from @chrislandy is the first one I see where a scientific experiment has been conducted and its results have been presented. As the authors say, a velocity of 9 m/s (~20 mph) is lower than the typical speed of a slalomer (15-16 m/s), but at least their results are on a sound base.

 

@Billbert I'm really sorry to read about the damage you suffered. In comparison, I feel really lucky with my few stitches. Would you mind sharing the type of helmet you use?

 

Safe skiing to all of us!

[Billbert]

@pregom my helmet set up is likely a little much for most people. I use a full face Lacross helmet similar to this

 

https://cascadelacrosse.com/product/mens-lacrosse-helmets-the-s/

 

in conjunction with a motor cross style neck brace similar to this

 

https://www.atlasbrace.com/atlas-air/

 

I was a little paranoid when I went back to skiing and the cage of the LAX helmet set me at ease. It has surprisingly good sight lines and the liner absorbs no water. The neck brace sets me at ease in case the helmet ever catches the water the wrong way.

 

I honestly hardly notice it anymore while skiing. I do curse it on every deep water start though as the neck brace wont let me tuck my chin and I always get a face full of water.

 

If I were to do it again I would go this route

 

https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-air-r-mips-mountain-bike-helmet/100000000500000093.html

 

I just picked one up for my kids. Nice and light, very open and the liner doesn't absorb water. It also adjusts like a standard bicycle helmet so it should last them a few years. Pulled the visor off and It looks like it will work nicely.

 

[pregom]

@Billbert - given what happened to you, I certainly understand being a bit paranoid. Thanks for the info.

[BraceMaker]

@pregom the trouble is by percentages he's protecting himself from a rare injury that he is no more likely to experience now than he was before. Possibly less if he skis lighter. Should a slalom skier wear a head/helmet restraint and a helmet equivalent to a motorcross or autosports what percentage of crashes does then equipment reduce injury? The answer is very low. Most crashes don't injure. Most injuries are ankles or soft tissue not neck or soft tissue. But .. those that do injure hurt. I've had 2 rods hammered in from knee to hip for a spiral fracture. But most people do fine in rubber boots that destroyed me. I use a mob now but I don't wear a leatt brace.

[pregom]

Totally agree, @BraceMaker, most crashes are things you laugh about afterwards. Should I worry about getting hit by meteorite as I walk down the street? It’s the laws of probability and each one of us needs to decide their comfort level. I think we would all agree, though, that there is a baseline for things that make sense (wear a vest?) and things that are dumb (use a ski with a totally wrong fin setting?)

[otcjb]

Like Billbert, my daughter uses a Bell Super R for jump. My opinion (so take with a grain of salt), the venting Normally for cooling is also great to minimize bucketing. The MIPS feature minimizes the impact of rotation which is the main contributor to concussions where your brain is not only impacting the inside of your skull but rotating at the same time.

 

[shoeskiman]

Hi pregom,

I had a heart attack 8 years ago and my cardiologist insisted on me wearing a helmet. It's because of the possible brain bleed death that could occur before you can get to the hospital. I bought one that is used for whitewater kayaking. They tend to not scoop water in a fall. So far it has been ok even though my skiing has not progressed much this year. (I think that is because of other factors...fitness level dropped.)

I do have a few pictures that I can forward to you if you want.

[MISkier]

@"Keith Menard", a cm is 1/2.54 of an inch.