Ridiculous binding setup!

[ballsohard]

I know that people have talked about Joel Howley and his bindings before but wow is this wild!

 

[BraceMaker]

Try the Connelly Stealth spin off of the fogmans? I suspect @JoelHowley l did. In ways this is that but with the release units eliminated and bolted to a plate. Just with a downhill shell instead of the factory shell.

 

 

[ALPJr]

World Champ.

[ballsohard]

I'm a huge fan of @JoelHowley but he wouldn't be my first pick if I was starting a safety committee.

[Horton]

@JoelHowley Is a super nice guy and world champ but you could not pay me to use those boots.

[thager]

Please... please... please!!! @Horton. Use those boots!

[wawaskr]

Believe its attached to a dual loc plate

[BraceMaker]

@wawaskr plate yes. Velcro.... Well these sure look like screws to me.

 

I'd say he's locked in.

[liquid d]

It's interloc on a plate. All the contact points and how solid it is allows him to leverage the crap out of the ski when needed. If it was screwed to the ski....i guess you better make sure the bindings are in the right place the first time! haha.

[Wish]

Stirring the pot. I rode these for a decade + . Plenty of wild crashes. ZERO injury. 1.5 @ 39 on this exact set up.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@JoelHowley - screws in slots or interloc - tell the masses?

 

[Justin_C]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157275234843197&id=673373196

 

Not sure if everyone will be able to see this or not but here's a bit of a closer look!

[BraceMaker]

@Justin_C that one clearly shows screws through the plate. but of course that is the boot pre-malaysia

 

[ballsohard]

He doesn't have any release on his bindings, he is riding on a death trap and that's how the world champ likes it.

[wawaskr]

@BraceMaker look closer - those “screws” are nylock nuts holding the boots to the plate. Counter-sunk screws are coming up through the plate.

 

 

[Horton]

@wish why do you no longer run that system?

[harrison_343]

may be "ridiculous" but he is the champ!

[ScottScott]

As we saw in malaysia, there's no release there. I don't think anything has changed since then (as far as release anyway.)

[lkb]

Is the bottom of the boot cut out so that his liner makes direct contact with the plate?

[Wish]

@Horton several reasons. The biggest being unable to find those boots ever again as they are no longer manufactured. So if they broke in some way I'd be SOL. Had to move on to something that looked to have a long life span. The other is/was my lower back (been an issue for yrs). Getting pulled up with back foot in was getting tougher. I also thought my performance would increase with a toe kick and being able to get SOM further forward on the ski. I would say SOM has but performance has not necessarily improved. Lastly it was tough to use any standard ski numbers posted for setups. Safety was never a reason. To me I see this type of set up as having both legs essentially strapped together like one big trunk of a tree on the ski. Very hard to twist an ankle or knee that way. Twice as hard actually. I want both feet in or both out at the same time in a fall. Did do those boots with dual lock for a few years and only released once. What I think looks scary is two different boots. Like a Reflex front and a rubber boot in the back. How does one expect their feet to come out at the same time? If one stays on even a second longer, it could spell catastrophe. I'll take my double hard shells any day of the week and twice on Sunday over a frightening set up like that. To me it looks like both Joel's feet stay in even though the boots are different. Someone has to push the envelope and learn new things in this sport. Way to go Joel!!

[BraceMaker]

@wawaskr Think we are looking at different things - I clearly see the acorn nuts on each of the aluminum angle brackets but I also see the circled spots on these images that sure look to me like they're in the standard spots for mounting screws.

 

 

[Jordan]

Joel did a video quite a while back, prior to his injury at the world championships, where he detailed his setup and even included a trip to the hardware store to buy a length of aluminum angle to cut into those brackets.

He definitely was permanently attached to the ski with no release; no velcro.

He discussed his belief about both feet in being safer in his opinion than a release.

 

[Garn]

I would really like to hear how Joel came up with that setup in the first place. What made him try a snowski boot?

[Habig]

The boot looks like a full tilt snow ski boot.

[Than_Bogan]

I personally do not believe that permanently attached double boots is the safest of the high performance setups. But it's definitely NOT the most dangerous one.

 

That setup will never pre-release, and errant releases can be quite dangerous. I went back to rubber because I almost never have a crash where releasing is critically important, but I did have the occasional pre-release with any releasable setup.

 

That setup will never apply a huge torque to just one knee.

 

That setup has very few possible "career ending" failure modes, such as a long spiral fracture.

 

Again, I don't recommend it. But I think the "Joel is insane" talk is overblown. He is balancing various risks and rewards according to his own parameters.

[ballsohard]

@Than_Bogan what do you feel the safest setup is?

[Andre]

 

Safest release system...

 

[Than_Bogan]

@ballsohard That depends greatly on how you ski. Certain skiers will encounter certain types of falls at 100x rate that another skier will. For me personally, I would never consider a system that has no reasonable way to deal with a twist out. Nearly 100% of my dangerous crashes involve some sort of twist, so the very popular Reflex setup, for example, would be among my least favorite options.

 

One "infamous" Baller from Washington state and I spent a lot of time and effort discussing bindings and safety, and it was incredibly educational. But one of the most fascinating things was how focused he was on preventing injury in a situation that he claims to encounter almost weekly, and that has never happened to me in 40 years on a slalom ski.

 

I rarely crash. It's just not how I ski. So any binding that can cause a crash, even rarely, is immediately far less attractive to me. I have gangly bow-legs, and poor balance (for a slalom skier anyhow), so a rear toe is not safe for me -- too often I find myself with just my front foot in the ski and still moving very fast.

 

Taken together, my best bet at the moment is dual T-Factor boots. Will I someday break an ankle or tear an Achilles in this setup? Probably. When the day comes that I figure out how to get all the upside of the dual T-Factors AND protect my ankle and Achilles better, I will make the change! But at the moment I consider this the best overall option for me.

[jimbrake]

I, and a few others here, know alpine gear pretty well and I can't even tell what boot that was. That is a severely Frankensteined shell with the DIN sole sawed off, I assume to get the foot closer to the ski. I'm a fan of being stuck to the ski with both feet, too, but that just looks (is) like an ankle/tib/fib buster. That said, I'm a fan of Joel creating his best setup. I like snug/stiff rubber and soap.

[BraceMaker]

 

[BraceMaker]

 

[BraceMaker]

@jimbrake For some reason I really get reminded of Raichle flexon or maybe Full tilt?

[paul413ski]

Scary set up

[MISkier]

That boot looks like it might be from the foot of a droid in one of the “bad” Star Wars movies.

[Wish]

I think the idea of release in part has a placebo affect. Of all the versions of release systems out there, ALL have caused injury. Jury may still be out on the MOB...my personal favorite design among release systems.

 

Both feet locked to the ski is probably the least tested option. Personally tested it since 2001. Bet there’s not even a handful of skiers that have it that way. So only theoretical as to its safety. Use at your own risk.

 

Back in the hay day of the Big Dawg when dual lock double boots were a big thing, I witnessed so many horrible crashes where the releasable boot plate never released and no injury’s that I remember.

 

Rubber boots used to come with death warnings.

 

Use what makes u feel safe. Just because someone says it is does not make it true.

[Chef23]

When I think about both feet in I think about a snowboard. Nobody has releasable snow board bindings. When both feet stay with the board you can get hurt (just like on snow skis) but they tend to be different injuries. I always felt pretty safe on a snow board that my whole body might get twisted around but I wouldn’t tear up anything. I understand the lever is shorter on a snow board and the speeds are slower but at times the surface is harder.

[bishop8950]

I broke my front ankle twice in a double hard shell set up that did not release. I used that system for 3 years and tossed it in the trash after the second ankle brake. Been running reflex and rear rubber ever since. It’s now been 15 years and and more than 100 full passes at 39. Zero ankle injuries, zero one foot in and one foot outs and one prerelease which was my fault.

 

There are a few reasonable options. Do your homework and make your own decisions.

[rockdog]

@Wish this all makes me wonder why more folks never used the Fogman or more recently the Connelly Stealth. That system really looked well made. In fact if they were available now I'd probably try it out since I'm still rehabing a tibial plateau fracture on my front Reflex leg. It did release but somehow after the break had happened.

[BraceMaker]

 

This ended up super long - I'm sorry. I think you're looking at a few issues. Fogman, stealth, HO Exoform and to a lesser extent Goode Powershells, FM Quattro, and MOB - all of these binding systems require some sort of ski modification to work properly, all of these require some sort of bothersome ski modification or proprietary fitment.

 

Fogman and Stealth needed front and rear release bodies screwed into the ski - Connolly skis for a bit provided these for their ski - but literally today someone was asking about installing bindings onto a ski that had these release mounts but not factory binding mounts.

 

A modern example of this would be HO direct connect - @savaiusini a good example would be that you cannot mount other brand bindings to say a freeride that only has the direct connect binding system. (Have the ski - love it - but please install more inserts!)

 

Any sort of proprietary mounting system I view in a very negative light in the way that when people say "DIN" they mean a standard universal binding standard with known values.

 

Slalom needs this there should be no randomness 100% of new skis should have enough inserts in them to install any binding system on the market - and a step further a few spare ones front and back to allow for aftermarket system utility. After all I would wager you all agree bindings are more difficult to adapt to than skis.

 

That brings up powershells - you literally need to peel and stick the interloc repeatedly - its a huge job.

 

Fogman - gotta drill 6 holes into a brand new ski. Stealth - similar issue specific brand fitment - HO Exoform - again same issue specific brand fitment. FM quattro - atleast 4 new inserts to make those work - or tape in which case you can't move your binders. MOB - has a new carbon plate makes things better - but still need a second row of inserts up front or tape.

 

This whole thing is to say. Either skis should come with no inserts and an approved way to drill holes into mounting plates akin to quiver killers being installed in your new downhill skis in which case any bindings could be installed but you'd need to be good or have a ski tech.

 

OR - we need a format that is universal across brands that has some sort of robustness for the development of some sort of future standard.

 

Downhill - DIN, Nordic Norm, NTN bindings - all sorts of standards that let you pick a brand and a binding and a boot and use equipment from different brands.

 

Slalom waterski - you might have a set of boots from the same brand but for some reason you can't hit the distance from tail to the front boot with out modifications.

 

Lastly @rockdog - I think there is an important difference between wakeboards and slalom - if you put both your heels flat on the ground and lean forwards till you are forced to lift a heel your knee flexion angle matters a lot in terms of which heel lifts, try this with your front and back knee bent or straight. This means both heels essentially need to have some degree of freedom and there is a certain point at which failure means achilles/ankle fracture/tendon rupture. Each ankle angle is unique but both need to be released together. MOB failure is that they are specifically different front to rear - benefit is that in theory either can release in 3 planes. I like that. Used FM quattros for years - benefit one pops they are both free - disadvantage is that I've stuffed those to the point my front cuff was popped over the lower shell and I high ankle sprained. I cannot replicate that ROM on dry land which means the retention force for the front might actually need to be lower than the rear in some crashes depending on how bent your knee is - this is where people can fracture a foot in rubbers or hardshells that don't release.

 

I personally believe some adaptation of the MOB that is more similar to a DIN setting where different brands could be clipped in and that both front and rear boots release < physiological forces required for injury is the future. As I say that I've also had ACL issues downhill skiing and there are of course the "knee bindings for that' Where does it end.

[BraceMaker]

This means I can fly to telluride with my fitted boots and hop on some brand new skis with no discomfort. But I need to demo other brands with a foreign binding if I can't screw into them

[Horton]

@BraceMaker

 

Fogman, stealth, HO Exoform and to a lesser extent Goode Powershells, FM Quattro, and MOB - all of these binding systems require some sort of ski modification to work properly, all of these require some sort of bothersome ski modification or proprietary fitment.

 

 

[rockdog]

@BraceMaker the Stealth has an adapter plate so it can be utilised on any ski.

[BraceMaker]

@Horton What's the Panda?

 

That's exactly the issue with these systems. If I told you tomorrow you could bolt a Connelly Stealth to your Pineapple Parsons ski and take a set are you more or less likely to buy the stealth binding system and try a pineapple ski?

 

The proprietary nature of all of these systems means you have to be a ski tech to use them - when my coworker the "average slalom skier" who can barefoot, surf, and has a system 8 he's owned with approach bindings for 12 years but doesn't like skiing because he takes a lot of diggers wants to try my ski - I can't just easily let him bolt up - they don't fit.

 

I see this as a real issue.

 

Last winter I grabbed my brother in laws LIBTECH wreckreate skis and had to turn the DIN setting down to use them. No other adjustments. That is the issue in waterski bindings.

 

@rockdog had an adapter...

 

 

[Horton]

@BraceMaker

bothersome ski modification or proprietary fitment.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker and half of the bindings mentioned are not commercially available anymore

[skispray]

@Than_Bogan what are your thoughts on the Radar Vapor boots compared to the T-Factors?

[Horton]

@BraceMaker Not to beat a dead horse but to be more clear....

 

The vast majority of hardshells on the market are some version of Reflex. That includes HO, Edge, and Goode. MOB and FM fill out the rest of the market. ALL of these bindings fit ALL current model skis.

 

I guess Goode PowerShells require Dual-Lock so they are different but I see fewer and fewer PowerShells every year.

[vtmecheng]

@Horton one correction, MOB requires either dual-lock or tape at the front unless you add two extra inserts. I'm not sure about FM.

[MattP]

@vtmecheng I use a 1" square of 3m VHB tape at the front of my MOB. Not a huge issue. Easy to remove and replace. It will last over a season if I don't need to move my bindings. Not sure I would use dual-lock. Too high off the ski and would change the release angle.

[ScottScott]

I believe MOBs latest release plate has stiffeners that eliminate the need for the tape or inserts at the front of the plate. @mmosley899 can confirm....?