Benefits of starting at -15/34 mph vs -22/32 mph?

[C5Quest]

Earlier this season I dropped -15 off completely and started my sets with -22/32 mph then -22/34, 28/34. Now that I’m just getting into grabbing a couple at -32/34 my opening -22/32 seems so slow sometimes. Which is good as I’m usually lazy my first pass but work on my form and it wakes me up for follow on passes. Wondering if I should go back and open at -15/34 to keep consistent or stay at -22/32 and step up speed. And by lazy I mean I try to just be more relaxed. Thoughts, experiences, benefits? Or just a personal thing? Thanks

[jhughes]

I did the 22/32mph opener for a couple years. At some point I thought to just stay at 34mph and open at 15. IMO it's the same "difficulty" but keeps boat speed (AKA a lot of the "physics" of the playing field) a constant. As 28 has been falling consistently and a few 32s as well I just open at 22/34 now and have dropped 15. But, the path to that opener was making the decision to have boat speed be consistent and drop that weird 32mph/22 pass.

[C5Quest]

I’m at a tournament Now and just got out of the water from my 2nd round. Was funny as I opened 22/32. 2nd pass the driver forgot to bump to 34 and ran a 2nd pass at 32. I was like that was so early and slow Haha Driver felt bad but I opted up to -28/34 made that and ended on a 2@32 off . We had a laugh and all ended well. My tournament average is 2 or 3 at -32/34 so I was good with that result .

[jcamp]

15 off you really have to generate your own speed and width. 22 off (and even more so 28) is where you have to start harnessing the speed and width the boat is giving you. Two different types of skiing.

 

To me, skiing 15 off doesn't necessarily "warm you up" for 22 or 28 because it's a different kind of skiing. Skiing 32mph at 22 off prepares you better for 34mph 22 off.

[C5Quest]

Good perspective

[lakeside7455]

Another thing to consider, is always make that opening pass, and even if a warm up, it counts and gets you ready for harder ones. 15 off seems to be a little bungee at times if not run right, so if you are comfortable at 22-32, I'd stick to it. It would be nice to blast right out at 34, but I think a warm up is good for us non pro's.

[C5Quest]

Going to stick to -22/32. That extra 7 ft seems like a mile back. 22 is different enough that I’ll stick to that as an opener

[Cnewbert]

 

I’m not sure how this is so different.

[Than_Bogan]

@Cnewbert I guess I don't see the relevance of a pro skier making 30/-15 look insanely easy to the question of the most consistent sequence of tournament passes for someone who tops out around 34/-32.

[georgea0731]

There was some discussion on this during the Malibu Open with the younger divisions. Some prefer 32 mph over longer rope at 34, supposedly -22/32 is easier than -15/34? I know that -22 bump makes you work, but 34 makes things happen so quick? I run -15/34 about once a year, but can get -22/32 a few times. I'd do what's easier for YOU, the physics are negotiable; constant speed vs. bump.

[ScottScott]

@georgea0731 I understand the bump at 22off point. But, for me now getting into 28 regularly and even looking at 32 occasionally, I hardly notice the bump at 22 anymore. As position improves that will get you into 32 or better, the 22 off bump becomes a non-issue.

[BrennanKMN]

I am in a similar situation. I tend to open at -28/34 and then jump to -28/36. I should probably work on dropping 34mph all together, but I struggle to open at 36, where I have no problem opening at 34.

[ALPJr]

When I was skiing at 34mph I did the -22 at 32mph opener for a short time. My coach at the time, David Spencer convinced me to go back to -15. Now I’m skiing at 32mph and start at -15. Imo it’s better to keep the speed and timing the same if possible.

[aupatking]

If it weren’t for letting a couple ski partners use my boat rope, I’d cut the -15 section off of it.

[C5Quest]

Things are starting to click now and running my 28s at a much higher percentage. Heavy tailwind usually bites me. My success can be attributed to earlier edge change and elbows pinned and now the space I’m generating is a game changer. This week I dropped the -22/32 and started at -22/34 both in practice and a tournament and has worked out well. My wall is 2-4 balls at -32/34 every time so I figured the -22/32 wasn’t doing much for me. I can run -22/34 twice in practice if I feel it was sloppy or conserve energy in a 3 round tournament by eliminating the slower pass as my -22/34 is almost automatic now. Hopeful that next season I’ll crack the secret to -32 and beyond.

[scoke]

@C5Quest

 

it's going to be an unpopular opinion and lots of disagreement but at your line length and struggles per your words, this is probably impeding your progress tremendously: "elbows pinned "

 

 

[C5Quest]

@scoke I’d like to hear your theory on this. How is elbows tight again ribs off the second wake impeding me? Before I wasn’t staying connected and giving it right back to the boat. At this point I’m a sponge for knowledge trying to break the 32 wall so fire away. What really helped and resulted in the “light bulb” moment was staying connected off the second wake with tight elbows, back arm pressure, and making the effort to separate edge change and reach. The result was riding the line with less effort and max width.

[Than_Bogan]

"tight elbows, back arm pressure, and making the effort to separate edge change and reach"

 

I don't teach any of those things. I think they are the result of other fundamentals, if they happen at all. They may even be a crutch to partly compensate a much more fundamental problem. I really hope @scoke can explain why a lot better than I can!!

[C5Quest]

Great..now I’m thoroughly confused. Every thread I read on BOS basically preaches those techniques (staying connected, elbows tight, arm pressure, counter rotation, etc). You guys are killin me. If your not “teaching” those things then what are you teaching? If you teaching something then you should be able to explain. What’s the old saying....if you can’t explain something simply, then you don’t understand it.

[jhughes]

As someone who ran 32 this summer @Than_Bogan and @scoke are right. A lot of advice in this forum needs to be aligned with rope length and speed. Eg some nuance of wake-to-ball approach may be for someone trying to crack 38.

 

For me my lack of fundamentals hit a wall at 32. At that stage it’s stance, lean vs pull, gate fundamentals. You can’t possibly be tall enough, you can’t possibly be leaning vs pulling too much, you can’t possibly be too high on the boat. Even executing that stuff maybe at 25% the pass can be run.

[C5Quest]

Wide and high gates and standing tall as possible have been my main focus this season. I guess you could say the rest is a result of those fundamentals. Obviously lots to work on to get through 32

[jeidmann]

@Than_Bogan why bother posting, your comments are a negative contribution. It's like complaining without a solution...worthless. Ok, so you "don't teach any of those things"...well, what DO you teach!?!?

[6_Buoys]

@C5Quest I'm a big proponent of slowing the boat down to learn a line length. I believe the skiing changes a fair amount between 22 and even 28, especially for someone working on 32. Try slowing the boat down at 32, try to ski it rather than survive it. If you are comfortable working on things at 28 do that, if that still feels "kind of fast" slow the boat down a little there and work on things at 28.

[ral]

To me, it is important to start at whatever speed/line lenght that allows you to have at least 4 passes in a tournament. At a minimum, your first two passes should be passes you run 100% of the time.

 

The pros, that can run consistently deep 41 start usually at 32, unless forced by finals rules to do it at 35.

 

32-35-38-39-41. If the best pros usually do at least 4 passes before getting into their limit, why would anyone believe it is a good strategy to start at a speed/line lenght where the next pass is a hit-or-miss???

 

“Elbows pinned” (and the like) is definitely the result of many thing being done the right way, not something that will improve your skiing because of actively pursuing it. I have not personally had many light bulb moments in ski - or in life. I personally believe that illumination is something you achieve with consistent work and not magic tips or “sudden realizations”, in ski or in any endeavor.

 

“Separate edge change and reach”: definitely. You do not want to reach just after crossing the wake, nor you want to change edge when getting at the buoy line...

[C5Quest]

@jeidmann Nailed it. Still waiting on a productive response

[scoke]

Your arms are bent across the boat.

Your shoulders are tilted across the boat.

Your hips are dragging across the boat.

 

Pick two of the combination.

 

Prove me wrong, post video.

 

 

 

In this thread I posted some observations about “pinned elbows”. Interestingly since then, I’ve ridden in the boat more then ever and have reinforced observations ranging from 15’@32mph skiers through a few guys trying to run 35’off.

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/20628/35-off-gate-and-1-ball-what-is-wrong

 

 

 

The three big things above all were holding them back. Not their ski setup, ZO setting, vision etc. just base fundamentals of body alignment and “lean vs pull” concept need updating.

 

[scoke]

Scott, did you have video as per my above post?

 

Thanks.

 

@C5Quest

[C5Quest]

I didn’t get a chance. Was out of town for a while and when I returned was only able to get one more quick set in before we pulled the course for the season. I plan on heavy video training starting next season and early spring sets in Florida. Will post up. Thanks though., been thinking hard about those concepts. Video will tell all

 

One thing I can say is now my offside stack/pull is better then my onside. I’ve been trying to stand tall off the ball and my onside tends to squat as I complete the turn and take the load. My offside I get on it hard and really lean away straight and tall

[ral]

@C5Quest, what do you mean by squat v/s straight and tall?

 

 

[C5Quest]

Had a tendency to finish the turn and knees would bent as the load came on, which made me squat. Was trying to get tall at the ball and finish the turn strong and in position to be stacked. It’s way better now than it was...offside I just naturally found myself in a better position as I reconnect to the handle and lean away taller. Work in progress