Are Entry Fees going up for 2021?

[Horton]

A ski school owner once told me that he found a huge reduction of engine hours by shutting the boat off at each end. At a tournament this seems like a bit much. The difference is the time the boat is not going between passes.

 

I would not advocate this for tournaments but it is interesting for practice. Starter motors are comparatively cheap and you can not take hours back off the engine.

[skierjp]

A long time ago I had one of my 196’s in for service with Art Cozier. Just for fun we hooked up the computer to look at hours. If I remember correctly the boat had something like 140 on it. The idle hours below 1000 rpm was something like 90! I think 5000 rpm was like 2 minutes. This was a long time ago so don’t quote me on the exact numbers. The computer does log how many starts.

If you have a Ford diesel truck this info is on your dash screen.

My truck has 39542 miles

1195 hours

222 idle hours

Not as drastic as a boat but a lot of idle time. I also don’t let my truck set and idle like old school diesel owners do. That has been proven not good for new engine designs.

 

[klindy]

@skierjp @Jody_Seal since you both think shutting the boat off at either end is pointless (or worse), how do you explain that most new cars these days have an auto-shutoff feature that stops the engine while sitting at a traffic light or other occasion while not moving. If it’s so bad for new engines, why is it standard equipment on many new cars/trucks?

[MISkier]

@klindy, I'm not taking sides on the engine shut off debate, but I believe the automakers implemented auto shutoff in vehicles to allow them to meet CAFE regulations by using the fuel savings associated with not idling at stoplights, etc. And, I doubt they care about the impact on the engine and/or other components as long as they can still meet that number while making the types of profitable vehicles that likely would not allow their overall fleet to achieve the mandated efficiency otherwise.

[JackQ]

New cars have auto start/stop for one reason only, to be able to advertise an extra 1/2 (or so) mpg on the EPA fuel test. Additionally many are built to stop with one cylinder on TDC, the on start provide a small amount of fuel and spark to that cylinder and can essentially start with little or any assist from starter. Cars generally don't go from stop to almost full throttle ever time which boats tend to do, and cars do not have water cooled cats, that start heat soaking when water ceases to flow. Most if not all cars have electric water pumps that continue to pump at reduced volume during the start/stop sequence to keep even temperature throughout the engine.

[klindy]

@MISkier yes, of course the automakers implemented auto shutoff to improve mileage to help meet CAFE standards. To suggest they “don’t care about the impact to the engines or other components” is bit short sighted. Certainly if doing this caused excessive wear, you’d see the same automakers reducing their warrantees on those parts, instead they are becoming more inclusive over time. Add the potential for recalls and other possible safety concerns (can’t restart in traffic?!) and it’s even a bigger potential liability.

 

My point is, the automakers do it seemingly without a lot of fanfare or trouble. Why not boats?

[MISkier]

@klindy, I guess "don't care" was a poor choice of words. What I really meant to convey was that they probably calculated the offset of component failure/warranty issues against the profitability of producing their preferred vehicle mix and opted for the auto shutoff option that would maintain that mix.

[Horton]

@klindy I asked one of my boat industry contacts about auto shut off. The answer was basically that it would make the boats more complicated and that there was not enough volume to offset the development costs. Boats are expensive enough anyway aren't they?

[disland]

All of this engine idle issue is based on the premise that the resale value of a boat is based on engine hours. But do hours really matter? How long will a well mainteined engine last? 2500? 5000? 7500? my hypothsis is that this number importance is greatly exagerated and that there are many more important variables that effect the boat value. High on the list is how it was used, and how it was stored, and how well maintained the other parts of the boat such as interior gel coat and so on.

[The_MS]

@disland When buying a boat from a dealer they will say that hours don’t matter. When trading a boat to a dealer they tell you hours do matter.

[Kelvin]

Just recently sold a 2011 SN 200 with over 1800 hours on it. From the Diacom readings, over 1100 of those hours were idle hours. To put that into perspective, this boat spent the first 1000 hours of its life at a ski school where the sit down time between passes is longer due to the instruction being given.

 

[dave2ball]

Shutting the motor down at the end really does not make sense to me. You are not really saving time. All the driver is doing is adding wear and tear to the starter and electronics to reboot if needed. Just because the LOC is willing to compensate the promo person does not mean they can use the boat as they wish. If boats are in short supply the LOC may not be in a position to say how a promo boat will be used as far as shutting the motor off. I agree with @skierjp in the fact that the promo person has the right to pull the boat from an event.

[dbutcher]

Isn't there a piston stroke or two without oil pressure on startup? Does that matter, i.e. is there sufficient oil residual on cylinder walls and/or moving parts to prevent wear? In slalom tournaments, the wait time on the ends is short - leave the engine running.

[RichardDoane]

@dbutcher I was thinking that same thought. Wait time might be 45 seconds in a tourney between passes compared to multiple minutes at a ski school

[skierjp]

Plus the wait timer starts when the boat leaves the exit gates so by the time the boat stops with the skier and then idles around to tighten the rope you’re probably only talking about 20 seconds.

[MISkier]

I would bet the actual amount of time during a tournament where you are not actually using the boat's power at the ends to circle around the skier and re-position for the next pass is substantially less than 30 seconds. Frequently, I am just tightening the rope about the time the first beeps occur. The rest of the time is dealing with a gentle set down and slight reverse/pause to hold position, allowing the wakes to clear (without turning into them and smacking them back downcourse), and circling around to idle smoothly into position while avoiding the creation of too much disturbance in the water.

 

I would think the likely way to get a meaningful amount of time to shut the boat off in a tournament situation would result in much more generation of rollers or other disruption.

[ski6jones]

Shutting the boat down at the ends makes good sense if your only concern is minimizing hours. Not really good for the boat for all the reasons already cited.

[MISkier]

@skierjp, I didn't see your post while typing mine. Otherwise, I would have just agreed with it. It's just not going to be a material savings in hours and could be difficult to even fit it in.

[Chef23]

I was talking with a buddy this morning about the costs of tournaments and frankly I don’t think they are that high. I play some golf tournaments and they are $100-$150 per tournament. I don’t think $150 for a 3 round tournament is excessive.

[Jody_Seal]

$150???? Shoot ! Thatz cheap in florida!

[lpskier]

@Chef23 @Jody_Seal Mark, the only $150 record I know in the East is Regionals. If and when there is a record slalom it’s usually no more that $100.

[Jody_Seal]

Your right if all you do is slalom!

[lpskier]

No record three events in the East other than Regionals except maybe in VA. Maybe also at Dave’s Pond in Pa. I guess I should say “Rarely a record three event in the East.”

[jcamp]

$150 x 4 (dad and three kids) adds up fast!

[Chef23]

@lpskier I agree that most of the events in the east are Class C and very reasonably priced almost always well under $100 for multiple rounds of slalom. I don’t find those costs excessive.

[Horton]

@jcamp nobody is happy about these costs but unfortunately in this sport I think it is what it is. It would be fair to argue that the costs in some areas (Fl) is inflated because of the way they organize their tournaments but in the rest of the country it is not like anybody's making much money on tournaments.

[skierjp]

In Florida things are different. I believe the cost is related to what the demographic will bear. Florida has more pro skiers and more ski schools then anywhere. The ski schools are loaded with international skiers that on the weekends travel in large groups to tournaments. Money seems to be no concern. Record tournaments fill up quick with a waiting list and sometimes end up being 3 day events to have more skiers. In the past 5 or so years I have seen “C” tournaments cancelled due to lack of entries. In the last year or so that seems to be slowly changing for the better. I have heard that a 3 event record in Florida can make well over 10K. But, these events are at “Ultra” sites and require more officials and expenses.

Everyone, we need more officials, drivers, scorers, TC,s and yes even dock starters. You could even cal the LOC and see if they need help setting up or tearing down. In Florida most sites will comp your entry if you’re a invited official so if you don’t want to pay get a rating or help out!

[Golfguy]

@jcamp For budgetary purposes I calculated 8 to 10 boat hours per 3 round tournament day. The tournaments generally have about 32 skiers and because of the comps for various reasons in the budget I assume 25 paid skiers. My expected profit/loss is $0. I try to keep it as simple as possible.

[Jody_Seal]

Just to add will entry fees go up this year?

 

Fuel prices this summer will reach a all time high and may even double by this time next year. Add that into the equation also.

[jcamp]

@Jody_Seal what do you base that prediction on?

[Horton]

ban you both if this becomes political

[Jody_Seal]

@jcamp

Seen the price of fuel go up .30 cents per since end of nov. .10 this weekend alone..

I am also 63 years old intuitive!

 

@Horton did I do good?

[jcamp]

The price of gas goes up in strong economies (because demand goes up) and down in weak economies (demand goes down), so no surprise that it's been pretty low lately. I also expect the price of gas to increase, just not so sure about an "all time high."

[lpskier]

License plates with even last numbers get gas Monday, Wednesday Friday and odd numbers get gas Tuesday, Thursday Saturday. Or something like that. That’s how it worked for a while in 1973(?). I had just gotten my driver’s license. I’ll have to check the numbers on my boat gas cans....

[jayski]

@jcamp that theory is partially true but in our current era you need to enter 'carbon tax's' into the equation...in Canada the fuel (of all kinds) has seen noticeable bumps in price because of newly implemented carbon taxes, each year the carbon tax keeps increasing which has caused an noticeable increase in prices of EVERYTHING

[jcamp]

I don't know ... it looks like the rise in Canada's consumer price index has been pretty steady over the last 25 years. Long before any carbon tax was introduced.

 

https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-consumer-price-index-cpi.png?s=canadaconpriindcpi&v=202101071800V20200908&d1=19960114

 

[jayski]

@jcamp maybe someone who runs a retail business and lives in Canada has better knowledge of what is happening in the country than your little chart there that does not show cause...also your chart is irrelevant to your thought process of demand equals higher price...our economy sucks and has before covid, but prices kept going up because of the carbon tax which causes increased Gas/Diesel prices, our homes and businesses are all heated with Natural Gas (and it's cold as a witches tit here) which the carbon tax on that is 58% of the Natural gas costs, $100 in Natural gas $58 in Carbon tax, $158 bill plus the extra's, but I guess reality isn't a factor when you got charts lol

 

@Horton sorry for the off topic!!

[jcamp]

Blah blah blah, wah wah wah. The fact is, Canada's own government statistics (it's their little chart, not mine) shows that your statement that "the carbon tax keeps increasing which has caused an noticeable (emphasis mine) increase in prices of EVERYTHING" doesn't seem to be very true. If you want to come up with your own little chart, that's great. But I tend to given more credibility to real stats than anecdotes. Your mileage may vary.

[lpskier]

Cat fight!!

[Jody_Seal]

@jcamp

You were saying?

In less then a week fuel (gasoline) prices have gone up nearly a $1.00 in some parts of the southern US.

Far more to come for sure...

 

[jcamp]

@Jody_Seal like I said in my post on Jan. 6th:

 

"The price of gas goes up in strong economies (because demand goes up) and down in weak economies (demand goes down), so no surprise that it's been pretty low lately. I also expect the price of gas to increase, just not so sure about an "all time high."'

 

We've experienced one of the worst economic situations in our country's history and hopefully we are starting to the corner ... I'm ok paying more for gas if that means the economy is firing on all cylinders and people are going back to work.

 

Not sure why you are trying to make some political statement out of this but OK, whatever.

 

[skierjp]

So if that’s the case why was gas so cheap 2, 3 and almost 4 years ago when the economy was roaring before the China virus? Also, here in Florida the building business is booming and has been for over 3 years. There are help wanted signs posted everywhere but we all know why that is.

[jcamp]

China virus. Cute.

[Horton]

ok guys this is a poorly vailed political argument. Just stop.

[The_MS]

It would be very tough to explain without getting political so no need to argue

[lpskier]

Well, the up side of increased gas prices is that water ski towns like Calgary will have a chance to recover. Calgary has been decimated by low oil prices.

[The_MS]

Looks like @Jody_Seal was right. Gas has doubled.

[Horton]

6 passes at 34 burns about 1.2 gallons or the cost of a cup of coffee at starbucks. You spend hundreds of thousands on a lake house and the cry when the cost per ride goes up a dollar or two.

[The_MS]

That’s double on the gas for the LOC. I will pay it. I’m just stating that @Jody_Seal is Nostradamus like

[Jody_Seal]

@Horton that was a pretty elitist statement.

Many skiers are not as endowed as you, luxurious conditions at tip of your fingers.

You know you can't hide money!