2021 is my last year of USAWS

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think the better analogy to the straw that broke the camel's back is we are the frogs in that pot of warm water that just keeps getting hotter.

 

If the real problem is kids susceptible to adult abuse - and that is a problem to some degree - would it not be better to train the kids what to look for and tell their parents or trusted adult what is going on? But oh, wait, that's the parent's job. We need to do something that is not effective, but makes the important people feel better. Never mind.

[Jody_Seal]

@bigtex2011

Ah yes they have been collecting data on me all my life, However collecting personal data on how you think and your thought pattern may be a violation of my constitutional rights of privacy!

I guess your ok with that!!

 

 

Their mandating a policy backed by a watchdog organization funded by a government subsidized athletic oversight group.

the AWSA Organization needs government oversight?

But wait they have a lame excuse of preparing or avoiding law suits!!

How does the affiliation with the USOC benefit any of us in this sport except maybe 15 or so US athletes? I have not seen any benefits as a member nor i seen anyone else benifit except maybe the 15 or so US Athletes.

 

 

 

A couple things: I don't have a problem with extended education when being employed by a entity. I don't have a problem with continued education on a volunteer basis in sports. I think that in order to be a certified coach or instructor of minors these continued education information should be mandatory .

But we have allowed government into our sport and I am not ok with mandatory volunteerism to analyze how I think for the governments data base..!

 

 

 

Also be advised I can't speak for my wife as to her direction on continuing with what she does in the sport. I hope you read the statement where it states "considering" i may have already made my mind up.

 

Bigtex thanks for the elitist Fair well,

 

Any constitutional attorneys want to weigh in on this?

 

[bigtex2011]

@Bruce_Butterfield .. sure I get it. I'll tell my kids don't take candy from a stranger and don't let anyone touch their privates... Not sure I know all the nuances of how a serial predator stalks kids online or thru texts or thru in person training sessions. I'm sure all the kids Larry Nassar abused it was the parents fault

[ral]

I believe @Bruce_Butterfield raises a good point on training kids as well. That is a fundamental part of the equation.

 

Personal data on how you think and your thought pattern is collected with every search you do, every link you follow, every image and like you post online.

[Dirt]

This was implemented very poorly. There should have at least been an explanation and apology.

If it was 15 minutes with no test for participants and an hour for coaches I don’t think it would be as hard to swallow.

 

[klindy]

In reading the thread it's apparent who hasn't taken the training. Who has taken the training and is still adamantly opposed to it?!

 

As @bigtex2011 said, the "obvious" actions are relatively easy to understand and spot. However the much more likely concern are the harder to spot or control scenarios which is EXACTLY what the training is supposed to help with. Of course, the parents have a BIG role to play to prevent anything bad from happening. Those same parents trust that those they know are 100% legit with their actions. Again, the training helps provide insight to prevent bad things from happening.

 

Frankly, if it helps one kid it's probably worth it.

[Dirt]

@klindy I disagree with the argument that it’s worthwhile if we save one kid. That is exactly how we get bogged down in useless bureaucratic nonsense. I do respect you and your opinion.

Why not send out an email requesting all members complete the training or links to videos on the subject?

Why not explain the benefits and ask for people to educate themselves?

Why add another layer of bs to an already expensive and time consuming organization so I can maybe take a few tournament rides this year?

[Jody_Seal]

@klindy

 

How does putting the last known abuser on the BOD of this organization benefit a number of the kids that were targeted??

 

 

Pathetic

[sunperch]

@klindy I oppose the mandate. I took the training at the request of USA swimming. They offered it to the parents for educational purposes. https://www.usaswimming.org/articles-landing-page/2017/02/16/safe-sport-for-parents

[jcamp]

Since previous posters have already tied SafeSport requirements to larger trends worthy of whining about, such as being woke or socialist plots (which is funny because I thought everyone liked public boat ramps, fire departments and meat inspectors, but whatever) allow me to do the same.

 

Lately pursuing FREEDOM!, you know, the uniquely 'Merican kind, has been distorted into a license to show absolute disregard to our fellow man. It seems that as long as anything causes us even the slightest imposition, we don't have to put up with it, because you know, FREEDOM!

 

Whether it's just simply wearing a piece of cloth over our mouths so that you don't kill someone you love, or even someone you don't even know, or taking a freaking online course so that maybe you'll notice something that prevents a little kid from being harmed for life, it just seems that people don't give a sh!t. I don't get it.

 

Complain all you want and blast away at this comment if you will. But there are abusers out there that don't want people to take this training either, as it will create a less "target-rich" environment for their perversions.

 

People talk about Making America Great Again, and you know what, in a way I agree. I wish we could go back to a time when people actually gave a damn about each other. My kids would live in a safer world, and participate in a safer sport, if we did.

 

 

[klindy]

@Dirt To be clear, this is a USAWSWS board decision and had no input from the AWSA board that I’m aware of. I learned about it just like everyone else. My comments are about the value of the training not the merits of the mandate. Absent any additional information, I tend to agree that having everyone be forced to take it seems heavy handed.

 

@Jody_Seal the athlete you refer to was selected by the AAC to serve. Since presented, the same athlete withdrew his name making any further action unnecessary. He does not sit on any committee or board and was never involved with any committee activity or decisions that I'm aware of. If you want to keep bringing that up that fine but the situation is completely resolved (I’m sure you don’t think so).

 

@sunperch as said above, absent any additional information about why this decision was made, I tend to agree with you. And I think offering it to everyone is a good idea/alternative. However you didn’t say whether you thought it was worth your time or potentially valuable.

[elr]

@klindy - the athlete is still listed as a board member on the AWSA Governance section of the website.

[ForrestGump]

Let's take politics out and be practical. In business, when building programs you ask yourself 2 things about a program. What are the success criteria and how do you gauge effectiveness. So in the example that was given of 17 people being under sanction right now, I took it from the response that the goal was a reduction. But does this do that? Does awareness stop a perv or abuser from doing actions that would land them on the sanction list? I honestly don't think it does. They're going to do that because that is who they are inside. THAT is why I feel this is an over reach.

[RazorRoss3]

Yes, the bad person is still going to try to be a bad person. We aren’t trying to have the bad person come to some magical epiphany. These are mental illnesses that will not be overcome by watching a video. The idea is that it’s much harder to get away with being a bad person when everyone in the sport is now watching for it. Could it have been rolled out differently? Sure. Is it worth quitting the sport over? I guess if that’s how you feel, live long and prosper.

 

In terms of data gathering... Google, Amazon, anything utilizing gps, anything that has access to your photos, literally everywhere you shop even brick and mortar locations. Basically if you participate in society then any sense you have of privacy is an illusion. I understand not being happy about that but that ship has sailed. Is it fun? No. Is it worth quitting the sport over? If that’s how you feel, live long and prosper

[ScottScott]

@jcamp an awesome wasn't enough, had to call out a thank you.

[ForrestGump]

@klindy I've taken the training and I'm opposed to it at this time. Because this sanctioning org has a history of knee jerk reactions. Might I go back to the background check for drivers. How much safer did that make us? What empirical evidence was used to determine that enacting safe sport across the board lowers incidents? As you know, I'm involved in other sports who have not enacted it across the board. Because they say evidence has only been presented for people in power. IE Owners, coaches, etc.

[teammalibu]

@bigtex2011 dude when we going for tacos?

[bigtex2011]

@teammalibu I look like I have eaten all the tacos in texas. I need to eat some salad

[klindy]

@ForrestGump are you against the training or the reaction/action of USAWSWS? My question is whether the training itself is worthwhile.

[sunperch]

@klindy Nope

[JackQ]

It appears that many see this is another case where the organization is not in sync with the members. Unfortunately the list is long, ill fated fascination with the Olympics, HQ location/building, Driver certification, SafeSport for all and many others.

[Ali]

I took the Safe Sport training as part of driver certification and found it very informative. The more people who follow it the fewer possibilities will exist for abusers, seems like a win to me. I would rather it was not mandated, just encouraged, but I can see the reasons it may need to be mandated.

 

As for the abuser being on the board that was a huge error, which apparently has been resolved thankfully.

 

Cheers

Ali

[LeonL]

Ok, get this analogy. You're skiing a tournament and there are various ages and both genders present. Because of this you gotta have safe sport training. You're an old fart playing old fart league softball. The next field over is youth softball, or the next game on your field is youth whatever. The league says that in order to play you gotta have safe sport training. Duh!

[skierjp]

I took the class last year. It was basic common sense. I have another scenario for you. Since I'm a senior driver I'm required to pay AWSA to have my drivers license reviewed. Not really sure what a bad record has to do with driving a boat? But hey, maybe everyone at the tournament should have to pay to have a Drivers license review? You never know when you may be ask to move a boat around the dock or maybe a pick up boat!

[Horton]

@skierjp

But hey, maybe everyone at the tournament should have to pay to have a Drivers license review?

 

 

[skierjp]

Lol

[ForrestGump]

@skierjp I'm with you. Where does it stop. I'd take your analogy one step further. Next we should do driver checks on every participant. Because they might drive a car to get there. And we want them to recognize when another competitor might drive their car in an unsafe manner getting there too.

 

At some point, it does come down to basic self responsibility. We can't protect everyone from everything. And we can't legislate every single thing.

[markn]

For a great understanding of why several of us are so opposed to this, I suggest reading one or both of the books written by Phillip Howard; "The Lost Art of Drawing the Line" and/or "The Death of Common Sense".

[jlittle]

I'm a snow skier... I'm also a snow ski instructor. I teach kids. And adults. I have to take a Safe Sport class. Ok

 

I'm a snow skier... In order for me to ski at any resort in the US, because there's kids there, I have to take a Safe Sport class. No

[gjohnson]

Common sense would be people believing a victim. But no one does. That’s why were in this situation. Because people rally behind the powerful figure and gaslight the victim.

[sunperch]

.

[Zman]

As a point of reference, maybe, in Alabama in order to operate a watercraft you have to pass an exam or have have a certificate of completion for an approved boater safety course, such as presented by the USCG. Then you get a "V" designation on your driver's license. You are grandfathered if born before April 28th, 1954, for some reason. I'm grandfathered, but took the USCG course with my wife anyway (she's not grandfathered, or grandmothered?). Just saying. A little knowledge can be a good thing. "Red, right, return".

[JackQ]

@skierjp I correct. I am not a AWSA rated boat drive, but I often drive the boat to the starting dock, at some site I have been a pick up boat driver, and often assist promo owner pulling their boat out. I should have to have driving training a lot more than SafeSport as I essentially have zero contact with youth skiers. Having everyone take the training is pure BS, what is next awareness of gender fluidness.

[jgills88]

@jlittle the snowski point is not a good comparison at all. There's no requirement to have safesport to waterski on a lake, river, or wherever you decide to drop a boat, just like there's no requirement to have safesport to go down a mountain. There is however a requirement from US Ski and Snowboard for athletes over 18 to be Safesport trained, similar to the rules set out by USAWS.

 

and I'm sorry for you still being tagged in this part of the comment, but I want to avoid double posting.

 

A big theme that I see in this thread is "personal responsibility". Are we really going to expect a 13 year old to take the personal responsibility to not be groomed by a trusted coach or adult? Is it their fault that abuse happens? no. Pushing the responsibility onto them is reckless and is not as simple as "don't get abused". If it were that simple would we be hearing about Nassar and Sandusky? Nobody chooses to get abused. And if someone is going to come and say that it's the parent's responsibility to prevent abuse, I'll say that while yes they absolutely have a large role in it, they cannot be everywhere at once. Hell, even if a parent at a tournament decided to have their kid on a literal leash (which is incredibly unreasonable, but hey, if we're playing the slippery slope game, might as well take it the other way), they would still be away from them during their set, at which point the community being better trained to be aware of possible issues can prevent problems that could occur, and stop kids from being abused.

[jlittle]

@jgills88 point taken.

 

The other day I recieved the email from headquarters and as I read through it my first thought was, well that's it for me. It's time. Some of my decision is personal but this hoop I'm not jumping through. Could I? Sure. I'm just not going to. I know I don't give as much to this organization as most but I have spent plenty of time keeping my ratings current, volunteering and traveling to tourneys. The part of this decision which really bugs me is, leaving a couple of friends without a chief scorer. They'll figure it out though.

 

Like @Jody_Seal I was wandering around the house this morning thinking about this, except I had pants on, and my thoughts went to a group of guys to my east. It would only take 2 or 3 of them to decide this was the final straw and it potentially could eliminate 4 to 6 tournaments. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in the years to come.

[ral]

Reflecting on the way many world class organizations position these types of training, I believe a much better work could have been done in onboarding this.

 

Easily done with well written comms and short videos by the leading authorities, and possibly a pilot program that can generate both feedback and peer reinforcement.

 

I get the point that most of us do not like things shoved up inside...

[jedgell]

@jlittle I know what you mean, I could see the guys saying screw it. If that happens I’d have to drive 6+ hrs to find a tournament. I’d then have no reason to renew my membership.

 

[gjohnson]

That’s more of a reflection of the death of competitive skiing. Everyone could easily take the course in between rounds at a tournament.

[JeffSurdej]

@lpskier No awsa did not vote on it, its from USOC, much more I'd like to add to this but can't right now, its sucks for sure, not going to help us grow, but its also the future of probably every sport or organization we all are a part of that involves kids.

[dave2ball]

@JeffSurdej

Have there been more investigations in our sport? If so where did they occur? Ski schools? Tournaments? Practicing? What were the ages involved? What were the circumstances? I know you are unable to answer these questions but where does it stop? Practicing? Tournaments? Just walking onto a site? Where/when does the parent responsibility begin? Isn’t it the parents responsibility to look at there kids phone to see what type of texts they receive? To blanket an organization on forced class really won’t help or discourage this type of behavior if a person wants to do this type of act will do it and all a class like this will do is give they another avenue. I know this from 25 plus years of working the streets in EMS. this is a complete waist of time for 99% of us.

Why doesn’t the USOC mandate all ski schools and coaches and the parents of the kids who attend these clinics or coaching sessions and the parents can inform their child as much or as little as the parent sees fit. The coaches still will have the necessary tools to hopefully avoid this.

 

[JeffSurdej]

@dave2ball yes there have been more, the details reside with USWWS but mostly with safesport, we just get informed of the results. What you said above to me is a reflection of society these days in general, just sucks on so many levels. These are not ideas or things AWSA wants to do, but in this screwed up world we live in where mr potato head and dr seuss are pulled off the shelf we all suffer and its now reflecting down to our lovely sport. I am fed up to and discouraged to grow the sport b/c every turn of the corner is a new hurdle OUT of our control.

[markn]

Respectfully, "being fed up", but still complying is acceptance.

[dave2ball]

@JeffSurdej

What are the benefits of being with the USOC? I don’t see skiing in the Olympics anytime soon. Way too may variables. USA WATERSKI has been doing just fine for many years and now all of a sudden we have these crazy mandates. Why doesn’t USA WATERSKI or AWSA just pull out and govern themselves once again.

[Horton]

@dave2ball (repost from a safe sport thread)

 

this is convoluted and ridiculous but our relationship with USOC is actually linked to our connection to IWWF. If we wish to send our athletes to Pan Am games or the world championships and such we have to be associated with IWWF. Additionally if we as skiers wish to appear on the world standings list we have to be associated with IWWF. Personally I think it's a huge mistake for us to be subordinate/beholden to IWWF but that is the world we live in now.

[ForrestGump]

I told a tournament director to go ahead and sign me up for a tournament on may 1. But that meant I would need to renew my USAWS membership after the 5 year lapse. At the same time, I needed to renew my USA Cycling membership. So I just sat here and payed my money to USA Cycling. But I'm having an issue hitting the pay button for my USAWS membership. And I keep asking myself what do I get from USAWS/AWSA? And the answer I keep getting in my head is not much. Maybe I'll hit that button today. Maybe I won't. USA Cycling and USAWS membership is the same amount. But why do I feel like I get less from one and more from the other?

[wski1831]

Reading the last few comments it appears we’re not even sure where this mandate comes from? Education is usually the first step to understanding. That being said this better safe than sorry attitude is dangerous. Let’s make the next poll about who is wearing a helmet while writing this. After all if helps one person it’s worth it...

[skierjp]

So we are under the IWWF so 15 or less Open Pro USA skiers can be on the ranking list?

Didn’t water skiing first begin in Winter Haven Florida? How did Europe gain control?

FYI disclaimer, this is way to confusing and I may be wrong.

[JackQ]

It would be interesting to see how much of the IWSF revenue is generated is the USA. Some how (without data) I feel that we are not get the voice in IWSF that is appropriate to the importance of the USA market. Maybe the North American market but not sure how the Canadian’s feel about this. I would gander that AWSA would fare much better without the IWSF then the IWSF would without AWSA.

[JeffSurdej]

@dave2ball being part of USOC has nothing to do with trying to get into the olympics, it did in the 90's not anymore. There are a lot of benefits, do they outweigh the red tape, its getting questionable, but we get over $250k in grants and others subsidies yearly now from them, our new ED has been extremely proactive in getting all the financial benefits out of the relationship.

[sunperch]

@JeffSurdej "We" as in AWSA gets $250,000 or "we" USA water ski gets $250,000? If USAWS gets the $$, how much does AWSA get?