Reinvent my onside

[Horton]

I was talking to Nick Parsons today and he was suggesting that I should bring my right shoulder forward & to the inside & less level approaching the ball at on side ( RFF 2/4/6 ). As he said it I thought holy crap that's going to be hard. How am I going to do that? How am I not going to lose connection?

 

Fast forward to my third ride of the day ( generally I never take more than two sets in a day) attempting to do what Nick suggested. It resulted in probably the best on-side turns of my life.

 

I only have one set working on this but this concept very much has my attention.

[bigtex2011]

I can do it on my offside. My onside is a mess. It is way worst than yours. I can wait to try your new concept.

[Horton]

@bigtex2011 I think I spent so much time trying to learn to be tall and level shoulders that maybe I have developed habits that are making on side even harder. The move is inside shoulder to the inside and forward. I'm still a little perplexed on the exact timing because I feel like as I come through edge change I have to bring my center of mass forward first and then I'm tilting my upper mass to the inside while still driving forward. I haven't tried it at 38 yet but at 35 my on side turns I have never been anywhere near that good.

 

Stepping out of skier mechanics and to what's really happening it makes sense for engaging more of the ski and rolling it over earlier.

[Horton]

Parsons sent me this image to illustrate what he's talking about. It is kind of hard to understand a move from a single image but I do think it's instructive.

 

 

[ghutch]

@Horton when/where is this move taking place? I understand before the buoy but how close to it? Does it happen sooner as the line gets shorter as well or hold it longer?

[Horton]

@ghutch it's all new to me but I think it is one continuous move from edge change to Apex

[jayski]

Keeping your shpulders level isn't a bad thing to do, maybe the issue was because of your certain moves to attain that you were not casting your ski outbound...I interpret what Nick said to facilitate that.... the pic of mapple is not a realistic representation of level shoulders, it's taken at a certain point and at a certain line length...my fear is the statement of shoulder inside is people heading to a path of 'dropping' your shouder in...which way too many do anyway to make a turn

[slow]

Looks like countering to get centered over your ski to me

[Horton]

@jayski it really sounds wrong to me too. I just had my best ride in 2 years. I don't think I am executing the move the way Nick is saying but my onside is still 100,000,000% better.

 

[AdamCord]

@Horton it's more to me about initiating the turn with your body. People have been talking about leading the turn with their COM for a long time, but we get fixed on the idea that our COM is at our hips, so we think we should lead everything with our hips. What happens is we end up leaving our upper body behind, ESPECIALLY when you try to also keep your shoulders level. If instead you maintain a more stacked position, like how a human is designed to stand, and lead the turn from a stacked position, you have more leverage to initiate the turn and you also can maintain that position all the way back to a stacked hook up with the line. For reference go watch Rob Hazelwood.

[ToddL]

@Horton - remember the 1st ever BOS Cash Prize? Remember how I suddenly skied WAY above my then average? I was coached by an amazingly talented person who told me to make one action as I completed the edge change: move the inside hip forward as if to move it up over the front foot (inside hip is left hip to #1, right hip to #2). This in conjunction with handle control resulted in outbound approach with space to the buoy and better speed management into the buoy. I also think this would allow you more freedom to make those new upper body adjustments, too. Something to consider.

[Horton]

It is November and I am still working on all this.

 

I now have a clear idea of what works better. Nick Parsons is the one who put the idea in my head. Oddly enough I am not sure if what I am trying to do is really what Nick was trying to tell me or not. Either way, it is makes sense to me and it seems to be working.

 

The way it all plays out in my mind is as follows… as I come off the second wake I am initially keeping my mass from falling to the inside at the same time as I move my mass forward over my feet. When I am about ½ way from the wakes to the ball I redirect the move from straight forward over the ski to about 2 O’clock. What I mean by 2 o’clock is that I am moving my mass forward and to the inside so if my ski is pointed at 12 o’clock my mass is moving forward and to the inside. (for you LFF people 10 o’clock)

 

The result is that I am engaging a lot more of the right bevel and doing it sooner. This loosens the tail and engages the front of the ski sooner.

 

[jayski]

1. why is your mass behind your feet?

2. your problem is obviously not after the wakes if this is your "cure"

3. the comments coming up will be entertaining :D

[MISkier]

I think you should look at the very first comment in this thread after Horton's original post. The epiphany above sure sounded familiar to me, although there is more detail on the fix in the recent post.

[Horton]

@jayski yea yeah I lose my feet out of off side. I have not the slightest idea why and I am not sure I can ever fix it or how.

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton I think you need to try harder

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown I think you need a haircut

[MarcusBrown]

@horton I already did that last weekend…

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CVgZRYNBpm7/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown I got nothing in response

[Horton]

Still working on the same stuff. Here is a GiveGo lesson from Trent that addresses the same issues but in a slightly different way. I think Trent's comments are super insightful. Now I have to execute.

 

[KRoundy]

I really like how Trent points back to what happens from 1 to the wake and notes how that puts you in a bad position, as in "you have nowhere else to go." That is pretty insightful. Have you tried dialing down that "spike" as he calls it from the odd ball to the wake and see if that allows you to come up in a more balanced position for the onside turn?

[Horton]

@KRoundy

We did this GiveGo lesson at the very end of my season last year so I have not been able to really apply it but that concept is on my short list of things to work on.

[Adam Caldwell]

@ Horton

 

Consider the possibility that by initiating your pull intensity where you are, you are increasing the speed of both the rotational acceleration of the rope around the pylon, as well as your tangential ski speed - very EARLY before center. This isn't necessarily a bad thing...and In theory, this SHOULD BE creating more space in front of the next ball. But it sometimes it doesn't.

 

The pitfall in this scenario is failing to have your upper body in a position on top of the ski and against the handle/rope to prevent your upper mass from falling back towards the wakes after CL, and killing the swing too quickly once you are into the preturn.

 

My advice would be to recognize that when you load the boat, the ski is about to haul ass across the lake, and you need to keep your upper body going with it and not get left behind. (this requires more effort and awareness then simply being connected with the handle). Both into and through center, you need to work to keep the upper body leading the direction of the swing - all the way into the buoy.

 

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell

What if the ski would provide some kind of resistance/drag/friction/grip in this phase? I try to seek such a feature by changing the ski's settings whenever i feel the same problem occur. Does slowing down the ski (to some extent) not help to "stay over the feet"?

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell I 100% understand the words you've written but honestly I've tried to figure out how to apply that on the water and I'm just lost. I even tried pulling my feet underneath me into the first wake. Luckily it did not result in a scorpion fall.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton -I will PM you.

[Terry Winter]

@adamhcaldwell Obviously the approach into the turn is important, and when everything is just right the turns get easier to get manage. However, I feel like guys like you, Rodgers, Cole M., Larkin etc. can turn your onsides almost no matter what. You all have a learned move that gets the ski to turn and gets the body into a strong position right around the buoy. It seems to be pretty much automatic, and does not depend on speed/width/path. In my mind, this is where the good stuff is.

 

 

[AdamCord]

@bko actually adding drag to the ski has the opposite effect. The more draggy the ski the more you have to keep it in front of you in order to find equilibrium between the boat's pull, your COM, and the drag on the ski. Just imagine if you tried to get way ahead of a ski with a ton of drag. It will keep going behind you until you go OTF. Reducing drag, on the other hand, gives you the opportunity to get ahead of the ski without it getting sucked behind you. It's up to you to take advantage of that opportunity though, it won't happen on its own.

[Adam Caldwell]

@twisper, I'd trade my onside for your offside any day of the week! lol.

 

I've been working on it all winter as offside is my greatest weakness, and I have a lot left to figure out/learn to be able to see the end of 41 at 36.

 

I think for many of us, we "Master" how to turn our one ball, then 'deal' with what happens at 2.

 

Seems that our confidence of making that 1 ball turn is 10 fold of what the 2 ball turn is, regardless of which foot forward. And it shows up in our skiing.

 

 

[thager]

WTF do I know, but I see the bottom of Hortons ski at the 2nd wake going to 1 ball and I see the top of the ski at the second wake going to 2 ball. Says to me that you are giving up angle and outbound swing to the boat. This makes you narrow, fast, and heading down course at the buoy thus making it harder to get free to turn on a tight line. Delay your edge change a split second to 2 ball.

 

[Terry Winter]

@adamhcaldwell Agreed. I've always tried to turn my 2/4 like I do my 1/3 and I realize it needs to be done differently. Up to this point I've always just kind of survived my 2/4, but that puts a huge limit on my scores. Like you, I'm working on learning a better way. We should probably be skiing together.

[Adam Caldwell]

@twhisper Good chance I'll be on the west coast this summer for a few weeks. Would love to make that happen.

[The_MS]

@twhisper on a C85. I can see the headline now

[brettmainer]

Late one afternoon a few years ago I was on the dock talking about my struggles on the C-65 with @twhisper. He took a ride on it to see how it felt, with my bindings, my vest and my gloves (lucky he already had his own board shorts on). This was several beers in already. I recall he missed his opener, but then proceeded to run straight through 39. Apparently my struggles on the C-65 were not the fault of the ski or bindings. Fewer beers, his own bindings, a C-85, and I believe Terry would do quite well regardless of what he thinks about his onside.

[ghutch]

@adamhcaldwell I agree with Horton in that is also what I'm trying to do is stop falling over and to the inside after CL but figuring it out is tough. Any pointers?

[bko]

@AdamCord

Thanks for the answer. Makes sense. I was believing there might be a setting (via wing?) that slows the ski in just that specific phase (without general parasitic drag) which helps me to bring the weight over the top of the ski at the moment the ski decelerates.

[Adam Caldwell]

@bko

Your not totally wrong. The magic of ski setup is finding the balance between the ski doing the right things for you such that its an aid to your ability to move on top of it and against the rope correctly.

 

But, as any Pro level skier will tell you, the more you learn to move your body over the ski properly, the less the fin setting is much of a factor.

 

If there are weaknesses in the position of your body over the ski, and or with your movements wrt the centripetal force in the rope, then fin and ski setup alone has the potential to give you a 6 buoy PB or take 12buoys off your average.

[Adam Caldwell]

@ghutch - yes it is tough. My recommendation is to really dig into "how" you are pulling/loading/leveraging the ski and ask yourself how that is going to pan out as your cross centerline and the handle moves into he upswing. Is there something you can do to your connection/position to prevent you from having the issue your describing?

 

There is no magic movement or tip. It really comes down to how your perceive the situation in your mind versus what is really happening on the water.

 

For example, I used to believe I needed a super wide gate, pushed way late, turn in from 90deg and hold that angle through the gate in order to make 1 ball. All my movements/actions/decisions went into that logic.

 

I can tell you right now that none of that is necessary, nor does it result in any kind of desirable outcome especially as the rope gets shorter. For me, the physical 'technique' didn't change until my understanding evolved. As my effort and intent on the water changed to support an improved and deeper understanding, then the buoy count started to and continues to climb.

 

Its crazy to say, but I seem to learn more and more every year. Don't ever think you have it "figured out" and keep challenging yourself to ask better questions to reshape your perception of what slalom really is.

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell: the weakness in my body position must be quite severe - today I moved the binding on the C85 2 mm (to the recommended spot) and felt a huuuuge difference...

[Adam Caldwell]

@bko the c85 is more boot sensitive then fin sensitive!

[VONMAN]

@bko did you move forward 2mm or backward?

[bko]

@VONMAN

I had the binding mounted on the new ski 2mm further back, just because the slots in the plate did not allow the stock placement. When I finally had time I moved forward by making the slots longer.

[Adam Caldwell]

@bko, what is your binding system?

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell

Reflex - but after some shell modifications (recommended by some guy on the internet) I had moved the placement of horseshoe and release on the plate

[Adam Caldwell]

Ahhh. Gotcha

[VONMAN]

@bko don't be afraid of moving your boot more forward. If the C-85 is anything like the C-65 and C-75 I found at least for me going forward with my boots made the ski very responsive in a good way. Like @adamhcaldwell said boot placement can make a BIG difference.

[Horton]

I had sort of a breakthrough today. I have known for 6 months that mechanically I needed to engage more front right bevel earlier as I approach the ball line (RRF) . This is a combination of tip down and more roll the inside.

 

It is one thing to understand the raw mechanics, but it is another to figure out how to get a 53 year old human to make it happen. In the past I have thought about simply driving forward, or stomping on my front foot, or allowing my right shoulder to tip in a little, or trying to move everything toward the next set of ball boat guides.

 

Today I randomly switched to extending my legs and pushing my pelvis forward. It sounds like the same thing as the ideas above but at least in my case it is substantially better. This approach seems like it would not address the need for additional roll but it produced the best on side turns I have ever had.

 

I strongly believe that understanding the raw mechanics first is critical. Different skiers will need different focuses to get the same result.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton - That's awesome.

 

Its very hard to realize how much you might be settling into the tail of the ski or getting compressed/squatted until you commit to trying something 100% in the other direction and experience the difference.

[Horton]

The journey continues. ....

I skied with @twhisper last week. He gave me a tip that I totally understand but is going to be a project to get integrated into my skiing. He wants me to not allow my shoulders to rotate toward the pylon ( clockwise ) through edge change and beyond.  ( again RFF - going to 2/4/6) My lizard brain keeps trying to pull my shoulders counter clockwise into the wakes but this is not the idea and just creates more load. The idea is to just not rotate clockwise and maintain more rope tension on the way out.