Any Top Skiers Wear Soft Boot Bindings

[Fastguy888]

In the 1990s I skied double boot rubber bindings. After a 22 year break I was sold on the Radar Vector Boa / HRT BOA Bindings; mostly because that seemed to be the "kit binding" with most the Radar Senate Skies I saw and price point. I am no pro! Just getting through 6 at 22 off 30 mph with major progression every session. I could not help but notice over the last 2 years of pro events I watch on TWSBC its 95% Plus Hard Boot Front, with the other 5% or less seeming to be some type of high wrap rubber (like I had in the 1990s). Even skiers at my current ability are running hard boots. I notice with the Radar Boa I feel like ankle movement does a good job translate to edge movement; however, I sometimes feel like I don't get a lot of input from the ski on front to back movement, or feel edge pressure very well through the ball of my foot. Their must be a reason no pros have the same bindings as me; and that must be why I am not running 41 off? lol.

[JackQ]

I an many other are on D3 T-factor bindings, Nate Smith appears to do fine with them. I think it is more important to get whatever binder that you feel safe and comfortable in. All this systems have good and bad points.

[BigGerald3]

Jeff Rodgers has skied on double Wiley high wraps for a couple of years and done pretty well with them??

[Deanoski]

I switch to a T factor after 30 years in a hard shell

 

Best move ever don’t have to modify them to get them to work and they are as stiff if not stiffer than my blk reflex they move with you so well Plus they will never prerelease Like a hard shell can

[MDB1056]

+1 for Tfactors. Outstanding bindings

[Fastguy888]

I didn't look close enough. The TFactors kind of look like a traditional high wrap rubber binding through the TV, and I guess they do have some elements of rubber high wraps in them (not a bad thing). It was actually Nate's Set Up that prompted the question as I wrongly assumed they were traditional Rubber High Wraps like Wiley's. I am reminded of @Horton survey where I ranked the influence of what pros are running almost last, and yet here I am, a weekend warrior being influenced by what I saw the pros running.

[Than_Bogan]

I think we all misinterpreted your question, actually. Seems you noticed that essentially all pros are either on hard shells or Tfactors, and were wondering if there is a place for the "soft boot" style like Radar Vapor?

 

(I do not know the answer to your question. I'm just trying to make sure we understand what you're asking.)

[ALPJr]

Pretty sure a few of the Radar pros are running single or double Vapor Carbitex boot.

[ALPJr]

Stephen Neveu https://radarskis.com/asset/5d0bd47852078?w=390&h=330&fit=crop

 

[Fastguy888]

Thanks @ALPJr and yes @Than_Bogan . I think I observed at Swiss Webcast only Hard Boots or what I have now learned were T-Factors (previously thought they were Rubber High Wraps). It got me wondering why boots like Radar Carbitex, HO Free Max, Connelly Tempest or my Radar Boa Vector were not seen (by me at least) at Swiss. It made me question if I should change my binding setup; not because my boots are currently an obvious limiting factor at my current level, but because I would prefer to progress on something that won't set me at a disadvantage at some point in the future.

[mike_mapple]

@Fastguy888 from a shop standpoint, the Vector BOA is one of our best selling boots. The freemax, is more of an open water binding, a bit soft. HO does do the Stance 130 but I have not had a chance to really try one, I still use an older Xmax boot, but I cant be to picky with size 17 feet, just have to get what fits and make it work for me. I cant speak for other pros, but the reason my dad switched was not a safety issue. it was the control he got from his reflex. That being said with how the boots are made now I would assume you can get similar control from the Radar Vapor, as they are much stiffer than the RS-1 that was when he was still skiing / switching to hardshell full time.

 

As for his rubber boots, he was always different in his as he had no foot bed in them, he liked to feel the ski under his foot, I know Will Asher used one of his skis once and was confused by it.

 

 

But with Nate skiing on the T factor still, which is a rubber binding, but what I would consider a new style of it.

 

But in short, I think the reason you dont see much high high end skiers on the vector, freemax/stance is that they are made to fit a range of feet, so you dont get as snug as a fit as you do with the other options. but that is my personal opinion.

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@Fastguy888 with Wiley's it is also important to note that there are some very different levels of builds available - including people who use the Trick Wrap as a front boot. Just because it says Wileys doesn't mean its a soft rubber binding. Check out the double stuff jump boots - nothing like a CBO low wrap.

[Spencer_Shultz]

This subject was on my mind a lot this winter. I’ve been running a Reflex Supershell and D3 Leverage rear boot for about six years.

Prior to that, I was a double boot Wiley guy. Ran my first 35 with that setup.

Has a hardshell helped improve my skiing? I don’t know. Maybe?

But I know I’ve beaten the crap out of my shin releasing in falls.

Having recently relocated to the Midwest and having a shorter season. Last thing I want is to be on the sidelines with a cracked open shin.

So with that, I’ll probably be switching it up to a D3 T-Factor. IMO it’s the only soft boot that actually holds your foot in place. Both the heel and rest of the foot.

[Cent]

Are you going to two Tfactors, front and back or just the front and keeping the Leverage rear.

[Spencer_Shultz]

@Cent Just go Tfactor up front. Leverage is super comfortable as a rear binding. Build quality is top notch and you can feel how it differentiates from a typical Wiley.

[slow]

How is the release in the T-factors.

[Deanoski]

@Spencer_Shultz I made that move this spring been in hard shells for 30 plus yrs

 

Love the T Factor holds my foot excellent I can move up and into my onside Better than ever

 

The boot moves with you but still has lots of power

 

And the best thing is it will never prerelease!!!

 

 

Only Time I have been hurt bad snow skiing or water skiing is coming out of the binding when I did not want it to come off

 

Hey stuff happens

 

 

Put on a handle guard and RIP

 

 

 

 

 

[ALPJr]

@Deanoski what is the white piece under the laces?

 

[jimbrake]

Also a D3 Leverage is actually surprisingly stiff with the plastic inserts between the boot rubber and the wraps. I used to take those out, but left them in on my most recent one and the binding fits awesome and has good lateral stiffness.

[Deanoski]

@ALPJr The light gray price is a plastic tongue

 

I took it out of a head jr rental ski boot liner with a seam ripper it is Thin soft plastic

 

I used tongues in my hard shells also

 

Ya folks say tongue are bad,

then they rivet the lower and upper shell together ?

 

The tongue and the elastic band on top give me the forward support I want

[Spencer_Shultz]

@Deanoski So I’m not crazy haha! I’m on a wait list to get one, but I can’t wait to mount it up.

[Ray]

Joel Poland hybrid solution? Carbitex + Reflex plate I would guess...

8:21:43

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[Stevie Boy]

When it comes to binding setup, A lot of Top skiers may appear to have certain setups, but quite a few of them have been modified in some way, as a general binding which allows good support and easy flex forward and back, the Tfactor is a great binding and has always released in any fall that I have had, it is a big improvement on the Leverage, there are other good bindings out there, but there are some that I would personally not entertain, but everybody to their own.

Last week a ski buddy, broke his front leg above the ankle, below the knee and a spiral break inbetween, he was on a binding that I would never use, they had to cut the binding apart to get his foot out.

Everbody has to make their own choice, but when choosing a binding setup, you should also consider what level you are skiing at, intermediate and below , consider carefully.

Make your own choice .

 

A top skier did say to me , that a little bit of give in a binding, was not a bad thing as it could help you out if you had bitten off more than you could chew, when coming out of the bouy, as well as other situations, but I am fully aware that a big percentage of water skiers favour the Reflex but these have been modified with heat guns and other mods, that are not visually obvious.

[Cent]

Went to a Tfactor front Leverage rear after years with hard shells and am quite happy.

[ForrestGump]

Rossi ran into 41 a bunch on RS1 bindings. Looks like he's still skiing on the successors.

[swbca]

@MDB1056 @JACKQ @Deanoski

Are my concerns about the T-Factor not releasing in a bad OTF fall misplaced ? In my lifetime I have probably had only 2 or 3 bad falls, but what happens if you do ? Does the T-Factor release ? For the rear, I am using the Radar Hybrid step-in with the heal, so I don't have equal "stay-in" power with both feet to maintain leverage over the ski in a fall. So if I have one of those rare bad falls, I would like to be out of the front binding.

 

I don't want the complexity of a binding that releases from the ski, so is the T-Factor reasonable safe ?

[MDB1056]

I've taken some world class falls and have had mine release fine. At my age I try to toss the handle these days if get sideways but we all know that's not always possible. Mine are comfortably snug so I get all the support of the bindings but also knowing they'll release. Running double boots

[disland]

@swbca I think the key to T-factor is to not synch the laces too tight. When they are synched down the bungee lace should still have stretch left in them

[Jody_Seal]

Not a elite skier (mind only) radar carbatex on a MOB.

 

[JackQ]

@swbca Releasing on OTF the T-factors excel. One advantage of most rubber binders are, that the give before they release, where many hardshell type binders is there is limited give until they release, the give on the rubber binders in the process of releasing is especially needed when you “stuff the tip” and crush forward putting significant stress on your Achilles. All binder systems have pros and cons.

[swbca]

@MDB1056 @JACKQ @Deanoski @disland Thanks for your comments ! - this isn't my criteria for being able to release, but just curious . . . If you are in the water without having loosened the laces, can you kick yourself out of the T-Factor ? I have never had bindings I couldn't get out of hands free . . I am new to new stuff.

[JackQ]

I usually loosen the laces, (just pull up the plastic clincher) but sometimes, I forget. And on occasion I just pull my feet out immediately in frustration of a crappy pass/fall. I consider the laces (actually 4mm bungee) as consumable, and replace 3-4 times a year.

[disland]

@swbca in my case yes

[jimbrake]

@JackQ - funny you mention that. Reminds me of back in '06 I was using a sort of predecessor to the T-Factor that Connelly made. Terry W. actually had some input on the design. Can't remember the name of the binding, but it had a funky cable cinch system. I came in and just yanked it off my feet in frustration after a crappy set without first loosening it up. It kinda hurt my Achilles a little, but it seemed like no big deal. Later that day at home was running to jump in the pool with my kids and SNAP!! my Achilles let go all the way. That and the surgery and the cast and the ensuing months of rehab sucked.

[MDB1056]

I don't believe mine are loose enough to just "kick them off" but I generally just grab my ski tip and pull it off. Sometimes I'll lift up a little on the plastic clincher before. I don't really have a set routine.

[Slalom.Steve]

@swbca - I previously had the D3 Blackout Leverage and just this season switched to the T-Factor. 6 sets in and I really like it. I haven't tried really yanking on the laces as tight as they'll go, but I've sinched them quite tight, and at the end I've still been able to pop my foot out about the same as my old Leverage. It's maybe a little bit tighter than the Leverage, but not by much, and the Leverage always released really easy in falls, so I'd predict the T-Factor is the same safety-wise. And if you are nervous about it, you can always not tighten the laces as much!

 

I'm a beginner and have never had a hard shell, but I read a lot of BoS lol, and it seems to me that unless you're a really advanced skier looking for that little bit of extra competitive edge, and are willing to spend dedicated time maintaining and even modifying your boot, hard shells aren't worth the hassle, risk, and cost. Again basing on what I've read here, the T-Factor is still an exceptional boot, without any of the potential drawbacks of hardshells. Personally, I don't plan on changing from the T-Factor for quite a long time.

[whitem71]

I’ve used a T-Factor front and RTP for a cpl of seasons after being in my Leverage for years which I loved (but it fell apart). The TFactor in the same size (med) appeared slightly looser than the Leverage from the start, so I always tend to tighten the bungees more than I did with the old bindings (as does Nate if you watch him cinch up really tight before his set, and is what Paul Crawford from d3 advised too).

 

The TF is quite a bit stiffer laterally so gives great edge control and direction, but is definitely softer to forwards and particularly backwards flex than the Leverage, which I don’t personally like as much. Makes it harder to turn on my onside because I guess I tend to hook the turn pulling front foot toes up which just makes me rock back with softer backwards flex. The result is often a stalled turn. Yes I’m sure my technique isn’t perfect but I used to nail my onside turn in the Leverage every single time. A ski buddy of mine has actually ripped apart the rubber wraps on the back of his TF due the constant backwards flex...you don’t get that with a HS binding, or indeed the Leverage due the rear laces. I’m still debating whether to try a Hardshell as the stiffness, increased ski control and little to no rear flex appeals.

 

Still, a good binding but if it was stiffer to backwards flex I’d like it more, and it definitely gets softer over time too, and in warm weather/water. Mind you Nate seems to cope fine, but I wonder if he changes his binding regularly for a new stiff one?

[jhughes]

@whitem71 I had the same experience a couple years ago. Loved Leverages with the old wraps, then tried a T-Factor and lost my onside turn, again a couple years ago.

 

For whatever reason I gave the TF another shot last year and it's the best binding I've ever had, I'd buy it over and over again. I have no idea what changed between then and now but I love it now. I can throw absolute bomb onside turns as hard as I want these days with it. Maybe my technique changed, donno.

[APB]

Trent Finlayson double carbitex.

[whitem71]

@jhughes that’s interesting, wonder if the TF’s differ a little across production batches or maybe the newer ones have revised designs perhaps. Do you wear it tight at the top like I do?

[Deanoski]

Put a soft plastic tongue from a old rollerblade or snow ski boot liner use a seam ripper to rake it out slide it under the instep strap stays in place makes the forward flex just a little stiffer

[jhughes]

@whitem71 I pull the laces as tight as reasonably possible.

[whitem71]

@Deanoski thanks I might just try this. If I can find an old skate/boot or something! Do you have an extra Velcro strap at the top too?

I’m guessing the stiffer front also helps to resists rear flex too..

[S1Pitts]

I came off my 8 yr old Strada boots to a new pair of Carbitex boots.

It was one of the easiest transitions to new boots ever. So much better in every way.

I don't think I will ever use my Vectors again.

[Spencer_Shultz]

Coming back to this thread to just update my experience with the switch.

Overall, it’s been a super positive experience. I don’t feel like I’ve lost any connection to my ski. Tied my tournament pb this past weekend and I know I have more in the tank. Just need more time on the water. The other positive is no busted shins this year!

Negatives I can think of, the fear of busting a bungee at a bad time. I did order some replacement parts for that reason.

[BraceMaker]

@Jody_Seal I'm with you, I've tried several different soft shell bindings Obrien Legion, Radar RS1 etc.

 

Currently using a hardshell that I've modified to move more by drilling out the shell and cutting some slots. I have found that I get painful cramping in the softshell boots when I snug them where I like them. But hardshell if you cut a slot at an angle behind the ball of your foot so it snugs up across the arch but not the forefoot is extremely comfortable but allows that lateral displacement that a softshell does. By using a MOB I can make a new boot on its own boot plate, and I can try either with no adjustments just by snapping on the sole-plate that I want to use.

 

So if I want to try a new binding I can set it up on a new sole-plate and if it doesn't work I can hop in the boat, switch boot, and ski again in 30 seconds.

[jjackkrash]

I am not an elite skier, but man I love my double Vapor Carbitex bindings for slalom. They are so comfy and easy to get in and out of and they provide more than adequate connection to the ski. I use a Syndicate hard shell for trick and could see using it for slalom if the Vapors did not exist, but I would not trade the Vapors for anything else willingly.