another example of why I hate quarter buoys

[Horton]

Apparently this was scored as a quarter ?‍♂️. The reality is it happened in a split second and I don't blame the judges for missing it. This camera angle makes it clear but the judge is perspective was probably nowhere near as obvious. I don't bring this up to abuse the judges on site but to encourage everybody who judges to question any 1/4.

 

 

[Zman]

Hopefully it wasn't a factor in the outcome.

But, yea, good catch.

[hemlock]

I'm curious, what is the rule for the 1/4, 1/2 and full point ball count? Does the tip of the ski have to make the zone? or the front foot, back foot, tail of ski?

[Zman]

@hemlock Maybe this will help....

 

[Zman]

And, this....for when the skier is said to have passed the buoy. So, to answer your question, Front Foot.

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

I have always stated the rules are the rules, but this image, does demonstrate that a rule change, might improve the viewing angle for Judges, nobody likes to be called out, everybody wants to do a good job, so it makes sense to make it easier on the decision makers and eliminate such errors.

[NoahVieke]

This happened yesterday at the lake 38 55k event. The result of the “1/4” call was Kyle Tate moved on and Casey Contos, the rightful winner of the head to head was eliminated from competition. Unless some sort of protest was filed and won afterward.

[Nater]

NoahVieke Greg Tate did not ski at this tournament.

[NoahVieke]

Meant Kyle tate

[dave2ball]

@Zman yes it was a factor. This was a head to head and that 1/4 ball sent Kyle Tate to the next round top 8.

[NoahVieke]

After some back and forth with Casey this morning, Tate has conceded the bracket and Casey is skiing today. So in the end, all is right, but had the picture/video not existed, the call would have stood.

[JackQ]

Don’t see the 1/4 buoy rule as the culprit, the same error would likely resulted in a 1/2 buoy be given in error. The rule isn’t the issue the ability to make split second decision on a fast moving skier for a close call will always have opportunity for error. If you want to rally a ferment for change, change the gate rule back where hitting the gate on inside or outside is good only a miss is a miss.

[Nater]

I went to a tournament 2 weeks ago up in Chippewa WI. It was a two round tournament with a handicapped head to head at the end of the day. Mark Brandt was paired up with my daughter. They both ran a few head to head passes. My daughter went down on her third pass and Brandt ran it and judges called majority 6. Afterwards Mark conceded and said he would not continue because he said it was clear to him that he missed the entry gate. That really sent a life message about integrity to everyone there that weekend.

[klindy]

@Gloersen those rules exist. There are options fo use. It’s video../ or not. We’re in classes have fewer options ( lClass R needs body video for example). But nothing needs to change for a LOC go use it. also there is a Class X option which literally gives a LOC the ability to make up and “test” any rule they want too. Just provide some feedback on how it worked. Experimental rules can be used for a single round or the whole tournament.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

This seems to be more a judging issue than a 1/4 buoy issue. Since we are all armchair quarterbacking, a few things to think about:

 

- if he hadn't dropped the handle, would the judges have scored 1/2 or full buoy (if he got back to the wakes), i.e. did the judges think he got outside the buoy?

- did the judges have a clear view of the buoy? In many configurations, the boat can block the view of the buoy at shorter lines, especially with 2 judges on the same side.

- What change to the 1/4 buoy rule would have changed the call of the judges?

[Horton]

Not to beat up on Kyle ( it's not his fault ) but to make the point about quarter balls here is the video. And I'll say it again.... from the judges perspective it was likely not as clear as it is in this video.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUAcLD_JkF2/?utm_medium=copy_link

[ScottScott]

It was a close call as to whether it was a 1/4 or not. Not very close to anyone calling it 1/2. In that case the lack of a 1/4 buoy option would have resulted in the correct call.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton, we need to implement Butterfield's quarter buoy criteria for judges:

 

- if the skier drops the handle, its because he wasn't going to get outside the buoy and its 0

- if the skier gets around the buoy at anything shorter than about 28 off, he will be coming back across the buoy line and its 1/2

- in the vast majority of situations, the only legitimate 1/4 is due to hitting the buoy and yardsaleing away.

 

The only legit quarter score I have seen without a yardsale was at slower speed, 15 off where the skier got outside the buoy line and just let go.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield if you hit the ball how is that a 1/4?

[klindy]

@Horton conceivably it’s possible to hit the outside of the buoy enough to knock you off the ski but not enough to”significantly displace the buoy. So you “graze the buoy” then fall still going outbound.

 

In the video and pictures posted above its pretty clear it’s a zero. Not even close to a 1/2. Just a missed call.

[BS74]

If you did not watch the 55K finals this morning then you missed a class act by Kyle Tate! Congrats to all the skiers.

[klindy]

Definitely a class act. Looks like it was a great tournament!!

[A_B]

Maybe we need to add golf's responsibility on the player to use the honor system? Pro golfers play for millions and they call penalties on themselves all the time. Hats off to Tate and Brandt for making the call when the judges didn't. Saw that at the Nationals for a gal who skies at my lake when they other girl was award 1.5 at 38, forcing a runoff. She clearly scored 1.0 and at most 1.25, but she dropped the handle as the ski was close to the buoy, so @Bruce_Butterfield's rule would have worked in that scenario. I can't remember in 40+ years of skiing when I dropped the handle afer I got outside the buoy without turning back past the buoy line. 99.9% are handle pops or I toss it to the side becuase I have way too much slack.

 

Clear drops are from the brain saying is this worth a busted ankle and the brain answers NO!

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Although @Bruce_Butterfield 's criteria seem right, they also seem to make it very clear that we should eliminate the concept. If the only way to achieve the score is with a potentially dangerous crash, is that really how we want our sport to work!?

[lpskier]

@Than_Bogan Better bring in an expert on that question and ask Freddie Winter…

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton when hitting the buoy, the skier is in skiing position at the exact point where the quarter buoy score is met, then loses control. Yes its a very small point in time/space, but in my mind that's the only time you will get a legit quarter.

 

@Than_Bogan exactly who is "they" that are making it clear the 1/4 buoy should be eliminated? All I've seen is a handful on this board who largely don't understand or can't correctly judge the 1/4. IMO the 1/4 is very important for placement tournaments. There is a big difference between the skier who rounds a buoy and stands up vs the next skier that turns the buoy with the ability to get to the next one and "get a piece of it". Granted the rule and criteria should be clarified and improved, but the differentiation should stay.

[Jody_Seal]

Can you get a quarter buoy at 39 off and ski away in skiing position?

 

[thager]

Not unless you were outside the buoy line and stayed out there beyond the next gates. I don't know why one would do that and it would be impossible to do that at -39 since the handle is inside the buoy line the ski would have to be on edge bringing it back in.

[Drago]

@Jody_Seal Yes, but not with the handle.

1/4s happen when the skier rolls the handle out to their fingertips and drops it

[Jody_Seal]

@Drago

Dropping the handle is not skiing away.

[Drago]

K, whatever. It's not crashing and its skier position. Rhetorical question?

[liquid d]

THIS AIN'T TIDDLYWINKS! The 1/4 is there for a reason...How bad do you want to win? Throw it out there if you need it....

[BraceMaker]

@liquid d its a problem of rarity. Sort of is it a horse, a zebra, or a unicorn. I think rules need to create more 1/4 scores.

 

Full ball is clear, half ball is everything around the ball all the way to the wakes. Maybe the fix is to simply call beating the far boat guide 1/4. It’s full to get inside the near one, but miss the far side. Cross the far guide it’s 1/4 unless you get to 1/2.

 

In application all good gates would earn 1/4 even if missing 1 ball.

 

Any real issues? Gives extra 1/4 to a skier who crosses wakes before opposite boat guide vs someone who just gets to wakes before guide. Eliminates scoring challenge as if it is before guide and not clearly a 1/2 it is 1/4 not zero and gives more possible scores, more 1/4 scores.

[Booze]

Is the tournament video out there anywhere for viewing?

 

[scoke]

@BraceMaker

 

You've got a few interesting opinions. Looking at your profile, are you a tournament skier and a USAwaterski member?