Define "wide on your gate"?

[ski6jones]

Couple threads discussing aspects of gate width right now, so what does it mean to be wide on your gates? What is wide enough? How do you know when you are wide enough?

[skialex]

I would say, wider than buoy width at lines longer than buoy distance. Or when the rope is pushing against the Bimini tie down strap…

[jhughes]

Extremely directional and efficient move left using a lot of the ski. I think "lean" left and forward to 11:00. You know it when it happens, for sure. Zing!

 

It's very common to think you're getting "wide" when you're just pulling against the boat on the back of your ski, but you aren't.

[6balls]

Wide? Get high! At shortline there is no wide, just high. Get uncomfortable.

[bigtex2011]

agree wth @6ball. It's moving up on the boat. If you try to get wide, as a soon as you go into your glide you will just get sucked back in.

[ski6jones]

Ok then same questions for high? How high on the boat is high enough? How do you know when you're high enough on the boat?

[Andre]

What @6balls said. Get high not wide!

[skialex]

@ski6jones no… it’s… “how high are you son? No officer… it’s… hi, how are you son?”

Oh, I was carried away…?

[bigtex2011]

for me i think my turn in speed is more important then how high. it's easy to get up on the boat at the home sight with decent conditions. If I can carry a little speed on my roll in i'm good to go usually.

 

 

BUT.. If I just Lean out wide then I loose speed in my glide and back foot it to 1

 

[ral]

Wide/high enough: a little more than where I was last pass…

[ski6jones]

I agree that turn in speed is important @bigtex2011 but you can have the right turn in speed directly behind the boat but you won't have a good gate starting from there obviously.

 

So is the transom high enough? Back of the motor box? What is high enough?

[mbabiash]

I’ve seen video of Will and Andy running super short line starting at the whitewash.

It’s all about speed and direction.

[Horton]

can we agree that "wide" and "high on the boat" is different words for the same thing?

 

how high on the boat is the right amount? I don't know the angle but 99% of us are not high enough on the boat. it is my goal to get as high as I can (within a reason) and then to start rolling the ski to the right the moment after the boat is pulling away from me down the lake.

[bigtex2011]

@ski6jones - If you are looking for a visual, I'm not sure that exist that many skiers could agree on. you are tall, i'm not. line length, wind and varying lakes all play into your question.

 

you need to be going slightly faster than the boat to get free of the boat before making your move to the gates. Maybe trent, rini, chet, marcus, terry, freddie or countless other skiing bad asses could chime in, but i would bet it's different for everyone.

 

 

[Horton]

this may not be very helpful but.... gaging my width is a visual. I'm looking at the red balls and seeing the boat and that's how I know how wide I am. It's the exact same method that a jumper would use to gauge help late they are.

 

 

[BG1]

When you can see the front of the motor box. That’s where Nate is. 90 degrees to the pylon. Beside the pylon.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

In my mind "wide" and "high on the boat" are the same thing, so @Horton is right for the second time in his life.

 

IMO the goal of "getting wide" is to get even with the motor box. That's only because getting even with the pylon is ridiculously hard, but that should be the perception of the skier. 90 degrees with the boat is the ideal, but its like speed - there is no such thing as too much width.

 

The problem is most skiers misunderstand what is really going on. We/you are trying to get a "good start". That is to set up ourselves as best we can for the inevitable mistakes and give as much margin for error as we can. In other words, getting wide on the gate can make up for a multitude of sins.

 

Maybe a few times in a lifetime a skier will get the perfect gate. We have to deal with the rest.

 

FWIW I have been in the boat when a elite level skier actually went past (wider) the pylon at shortline.

 

 

[Horton]

my life is now complete

[6balls]

@Bruce_Butterfield was thinking the same thing, with enough width/height, there is more margin for error on the speed of turn-in, the speed generated by CL, and then hopefully a good gate. Your post is spot-on.

[Horton]

I think a lot of people don't understand that with a narrow gate you can drag yourself out to one ball but the lack of gate width often shows up at two ball. If you feel like your one balls are always good and you're two balls are terrible... what you should ask yourself is were you as wide as possible when you turned in for the gate?

[BG1]

I worked on wide last year and made progress but I have yet to make it all the way up to 90 degrees to boat path. Not even once. Back of the motor box seems to be my default without a huge effort. Seems to be better with my first sets this spring. Nate starts in the trough which gives him a longer loading zone. I’m also right foot forward and just can’t get a handle on starting in the trough.

[RGilmore]

Someone above said "wide" and "high on the boat" are the same thing. I respectfully disagree. If you get as high on the boat as possible, which entails accelerating to faster than the boat all the way "up", you'll actually start to become incrementally narrower - but you'll have the huge advantage of being to turn in on a tight line at boat speed.

 

Meanwhile, "wide" is super easy. Just pull hard til you're up on the boat, then release your outside arm and stretch out your inside arm, letting your ski glide on a wider path. You can always get your skier wide this way, but you immediately sacrifice speed (pendulum physics), and therefore lose leverage on the boat.

 

Somebody else above said "wider is easier, but higher is better". To that I say "+1"

 

As always, IMO.

[Horton]

@RGilmore

If your point is that making a lot of speed on the way out it also important then I agree but wide vs high...

[ski6jones]

To @BG1 point I'd argue having the goal of getting up to the pylon for example, even if you never achieve it, would be worth while since you'd always be striving to get as wide/high as you're able.

 

Maybe with time you would get to the pylon which isn't too high.

 

 

[hemlock]

I was thinking... if getting high or wide for the gate is ideal? Why?

 

I'm thinking angle is key and getting high or wide will help get angle.

Here's a crappy illustration:

 

The "ideal" angle through the gates.

 

 

 

 

And a less desirable angle through the gates.

 

Of course getting tight (ideal) angle requires a proper stack, and will create crazy speed and timing to get it correct.

I believe that *not* getting high or wide will make it very difficult to get the best angle.

 

 

[RGilmore]

@Horton I just watched video of you skiing and I realized you use a well stretched out one-handed gate, so naturally you would disagree with me. However, when you release your outside hand, stretch your right arm toward the pylon, and keep the rope tight at the same time you can only be slowing down and falling back on the boat. Which means you're turning in at slower than optimum speed. That's just pure physics, so if your only argument is that I can't recognize your tomatoes then you're 100% wrong. I know tomatoes when I see them...

 

As always, IMO.

[RGilmore]

@hemlock

At 34 mph, at centerline the boat is dragging you down course at just under 50 feet per second - even if you're going so fast that you're only in the gate for 1/10th of one second you've still traveled 5-feet straight down course. That calculates to about a 43-degree cross angle through the gate.

 

Combine that with the fact that the boat wakes spreads the gate open a bit, and you can bet that neither of your drawn angles is even close to realistic. I know you feel like its possible to cut SO hard you go straight sideways across the course... but it's not.

 

As always, IMO.

[ScottScott]

I've been taught something like (if I remember accurately)...

 

Based on feet beyond the 2,4,6 buoy line

15 off....12-15 ft

22off.....9-12ft

28off....6-9ft

32off.....3-6ft

35off..... 0-3ft

 

I think at 35 and/or shorter it becomes more of a concept of being higher on the boat. Transom? engine box? All the way to the pylon? It's easier to see and visualize width differences at longer lines, and at longer lines you aren't going to be as high as transom. Short line you'll be approaching pylon high.

[lpskier]

You are wide enough on your gate (or far enough up on the boat-take your pick) if you have time to coast to your ideal turn in speed (maybe .1 mph faster than the boat speed) and start your turn in before the boat starts to move away from you. If you can’t do this, you aren’t wide enough.

 

Here are two things I think about:

 

1. On my out move, if I feel the load in the hip of my front foot (my left), I know my balance is on the right spot on the ski, I.e., my front foot and not my back foot; and

2. Imagine swinging the handle from centerline up to 90* from the pylon. This is a 90* swing arc. If you generate all your outbound speed in the first 45* of the swing, your momentum is outbound toward shore. After 45*, you are generating down course speed with your momentum going down course but not necessarily away from the boat (think about which direction the handle moves in the first 45* vs the second 45*). This may give you speed but not necessarily the tight line you need to turn in. In fact, it can give you a soft line. Outbound speed gets more width with a tight line than down course speed. Therefore, generate all your momentum/speed in the first 45* of the handle arc while feeling the pressure of the movement in your front hip and coast the remainder of the swing out and up while maintaining the same body position and balance on the ski.

[Adam Caldwell]

@hemlock

 

That illustration would be "ideal" if the rope is 100+ feet long or the boat speed is excessively slow.

 

However, move to a shorter line, or higher boat speed, and the "ideal" gate path across the right hand gate ball would be nearly the polar opposite.

 

[6balls]

@horton exactly. When I first graduated to cracks at 38 I was running narrow cuz I was scared of speed at 1 ball and wanted to get a "good 1" to have a chance at the pass. That was fine except then I had to jazz to get out of that putting a lot of energy into getting to 2--which on PP is ok but ZO is a no-go. 2 was onside so then crank there, too.

There is a reason the best skiers are high on the boat in gate glide. I had to get uncomfortable and get high to make 38s work consistently.

[swbca]

@skialex you said “how high are you son? No officer… it’s… hi, how are you son?”

 

This is a topic stretch but its worth watching if you haven't seen it

 

[swbca]

Timing on getting high. I recall having the tendency to avoid getting totally high on the boat in tournaments because if you do it late, your screwed. Occasionally I have seen pros pull out to early and then start falling back and pulling again before they can start their turn in.

[lpskier]

@swbca For some, that extra move to the left is just part of their rhythm rather than compensating for drifting in. CP, for example moves out, coasts flat, goes to his left edge and then turns in.

[teammalibu]

@ski6jones i would say you are high enough on the boat when Noah says, you are high enough on the boat! Bazinga!

[Horton]

@RGilmore I would propose that the perfect speed at turn in is just slightly slower than the boat. I do not know if it is 1 mph or 3 mph but it is not much.

 

I think our above misalignment is about glide speed and time. If you are leaning on your left edge all the way out to width and or are not over your ski in your glide you are going to lose speed and lose ground on the boat quickly. (I do not always practice what I preach but) I think it is ideal of you make a lot of speed early on your pullout so you get shot out there and you can match the boat for a second or two and be as high as possible when the boat first starts pulling way. Again the end goal is to be as high as possible so you can make speed from wide. @AdamCord warns that you can make speed from too wide but I think that is an extreme that does not apply to most of us.

[RGilmore]

@Horton

You wrote: "If you are leaning on your left edge all the way out to width and or are not over your ski in your glide you are going to lose speed and lose ground on the boat quickly."

 

With all due respect, with this one statement you make my point for me. Speaking specifically to your gate, when you get up to your chosen height you let go with your left hand and reach out with your right arm - but the rope doesn't go slack. To my thinking there are only two possible ways for the rope to remain tight - you are getting on (or staying on) your outbound

edge and skiing away from the handle as you reach, OR you are allowing yourself to drop back on the boat as you reach so the rope won't sag.

 

Since, as you stated, being on the left edge makes you lose speed and ground on the boat, and dropping back on the boat is the very definition of losing ground on the boat, reaching out (which undeniably gets you more "wide" - momentarily) is not the same as getting "high" (without reaching). And that was my point. For which you mocked me by posting a picture of your tomatoes. And, may I say, they are very lovely tomatoes indeed.

 

But, as always, IMO.

[Horton]

@RGilmore and my point ( with the tomatoes ) is that the difference that you are drawing is way off in the weeds. Everyone is decelerating at the moment they turn in.

[RGilmore]

@Horton "Everyone is decelerating at the moment they turn in." Of course they are, but my point is, did that deceleration begin with turning your ski in under the rope, thereby happening during that turn in OR did it begin earlier, with a weight shift toward the tail / release of the outside hand / whatever, causing you to lose angle and speed before turn in?

 

I believe, right or wrong, the slower you are going on turn in the harder it will be to gain the angle and speed you want before the first wake. Of course, I could be wrong because, well, it's been known to happen. Especially when I'm way off in the weeds.

 

In any event, agree to disagree.

 

As always, IMO.

[ForrestGump]

If you hit the shore, you are too wide.

[Jmoski]

I found @ScottScott’s model of being x ft outside of 2-4-6 buoy line based on speed really helped me - this concept was one of many great coaching tips I got from skiing with Jodi Fisher.

[Horton]

so back to subjective of gates..... in this thread or another I mentioned that I had changed my gates to picking up the boat much later as I have seen @rico do. Yesterday I went go back to my old gate where I start from a very high point, rotate in at the moment the boat out paces me and make speed from a relatively wide point. oh my god it was so much better.

[The_MS]

It’s all about angle and timing. Doesn’t matter how high you are on the boat if you are not timed to pull in at the correct speed

[Horton]

agreed but all the timing in the world is not going to help you if you're narrow

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

A great way to think of gate width isn't so much about how wide you actually are but your speed. If you're moving faster than the boat in your glide which is what you should be doing, you know you're in the right spot. The key is staying faster than the boat all the way up to your turn in. The line shouldn't be tight but also shouldn't be super lose. I like to use the word taught. From that point we should be able to turn in before the line gets tight right as the boat is pulling away from us. By doing this we're putting ourselves in the best position to accept the best connection to the boat and the ability to work before the boat through the course and not behind it. Being narrow you can still run short line, you're just choosing your line through the course. Its a fast, hard line instead of having space, time and being flowy. There's probably a better way to explain this but this is one way to think about it.

[rico]

The main thing I am working on, on my gate turn in is to not anger ZO. I am tall and heavy and it is very heavy to load with my shoulders / upper body. I am focussing on pulling out and turning in, with as little movement as possible, leveraging core and trying to stay strong and connected.

[wilecoyote]

By all means, I'm sure there is a really good reason not to do this but... I've always wondered if a gate that was more a pull out that turned as soon as you were wide with no glide whatsoever might work? I'm thinking more like a "zero ball" rather than gate turn in. I guess the question is can you load earlier and create more angle out of a full turn or a glide and turn in? Bear in mind this comment comes from someone with a PB of 3@22 so be kind LOL.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@wilecoyote That's pretty much a one handed gate from what you explained unless you meant something else.

[Fastguy888]

I appreciate @ColeGiacopuzzi answer as it also applies well to longer lines and slower speeds.

 

At my longer lines in the course friends (with good intent) would say "get as wide as possible' and this screwed me up. I would get too wide too early without enough glide speed, stalled out wider than 2-4-6. Turning in without enough speed would result in poor balance through the gates; I would be leaning back directly against the boat rather than gaining angle. For me concentrating on generating faster glide speed was much more important that "getting wide". With less whip acceleration during pull out at longer lines I think you spend less time gliding faster than the boat making pull out and timing difficult for different reasons than shorter lines.

[RGilmore]

@wilecoyote

Two words: Marcus Brown