2022 Men 3 Slalom Nationals Tournament Performance | Deja Vue 1985

[swbca]

With all the improvements in skis, training and boats, I was surprised watching Men 3 Slalom on Sunday that the top performances were nearly an exact match to the 1985 Nationals in De Quoin Illinois. I am pretty sure M3 was for age 35-44 in both tournaments. The Pro Skiers have taken the slalom event to entirely new heights and the 50+ ages have advanced considerably over the last 35 years. Site Conditions looked similar, except there was some breeze on Sunday but with no wind affect on the water.

 

Any speculation on why the performances weren't better for this event after 37 years ?

 

EDIT CORRECTION: There were actually 5 Skiers who completed 35off in '85. I forgot about David Benzel who didn't get to 38off because he couldn't catch the slack after the exit gate at 35off.

[Rednucleus]

Maybe because they are getting to the superhuman rope lengths that only the top elite humans can handle? (this from a 15 off skier)

[dbutcher]

It appears there were only 19 M3 slalom skiers at the 2022 Nationals. Perhaps some (or many) M3 skiers stayed home this year. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part.

[swbca]

@dbutcher about 60 skiers in 1985. There was an advanced women skier at the Nationals with your last name. Do you know her :)

[Horton]

not logically comparable. completely different size fields. completely different size field of people just trying to qualify for Nationals. hand driven boats. sure path boat paths versus not even video review. completely different conditions.

 

My understanding is the conditions in Kansas this year were decent but challenging. The men's four scores were pretty low.

[swbca]

@Horton just because you know the answer to a question, doesn't always have to mean it shouldn't have been asked. Thanks for confirming @dbutcher 's response.

[lpskier]

Not sure about 1985, but in 2022 there was a stiff cross wind out of the south on Sunday with temps above 100. Skiing was challenging. On Monday, the wind shifted to out of the north and temps dropped to the 70’s. M3 slalomed Sunday; I (M7) slalomed Monday.

[ForrestGump]

Scores were fairly low for a lot of people. There's people in M4 that are capable of running deep 39 and who went down at 35. So you can't compare year vs year in that way.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Sun glare was by far the worst condition this year. Between 7:30 and about 9:30 am it was a serious challenge.

 

If any nationals level skier was challenged by the wind this week, they really need to step up their training

[jhughes]

I wonder if what was a fairly large and deep M3 group simply grew up and are now in M4 which had twice as many skiers.

[dbutcher]

@swbca Sent you a private message.

[Bbrandau]

Should I take offense that I was part of this underperforming Mens 3 group? LOL ...

 

For me personally, the water skied great and got a score that is around what I should have expected. I think it's a participation problem ... A very low percent of the skiers in the top 25 of the USA ranking list showed up. That said, I get it ... This is probably the busiest life stage for most skiers with families and jobs. Taking the time to get to a site like Kansas that skis great but is logistically harder to get to could have been the breaking point. I know I wouldn't have gone if I wasn't able to get a direct flight.

[dave2ball]

I have to agree with B Butterfield. I skied Thursday around 9AM there was a small head/tail wind but that caused a very challenging glare going back towards the starting dock. So much that I could not really see the 55’s or entrance gates. They were a black blurb. That was huge for your 4th pass generally the money pass needed to challenge for the lead.

Others then glare the lake skied great. No surprises.

[scuppers]

Just maybe the best skiers didn't feel like taking safe sport training.

[MarkTimm]

The Men 5 skied well today, it took a full pass @ -38 to make the podium. It was very cool seeing names I recognize from Ball of Spray. @Bruce_Butterfield and @liquid d.

[Drago]

I would say it's the Kansas low octane fuel

[lpskier]

@Drago I don’t know about the octane they used, but regular was under $3.50 a gallon at the pump. A buck more a gallon when I got home to NY.

[MISkier]

Where 1985 falls short of 2022:

 

1985 had 250HP to 275HP engines and hand drive. You can bet skiers were pulling those boats down and the timings were generous.

2022 has 400+HP engines and Zero Off. Any 1985 skier transported to today would think it it is two freight trains with a JATO rocket strapped to the stern.

On the reverse:

 

1985 had 1985 technology skis/equipment and understanding of the physics of the sport

2022 has benefited from significant improvements on those.

Boat path is potentially far tighter today than back then.

[Horton]

@MISkier I can run mid 38 on an old EP Stiletto behind a current boat with a legit path and time. Gimmie a weak boat and a happy boat path .... I wonder.

[lpskier]

@jhughes M4? That M3 group is in M6 (22 skiers, 4@38 won), M7 (38 skiers, 5@39 won) and M8 (12 skiers, 2@38 won). That’s 72 skiers, many of whom I guess skied M3 at Nationals in 1985.

[JackQ]

My 1st Nationals was at De Quoin, not sure if it was 1985. I would argue that skiing then (dual boats, had to pull out through the wakes of the boat leaving the the course), behind a 1985 MC ( I owned one), with blinding spray at 35, inconsistent driving, and the skis of that time; was more challenging than today.

 

However, My wife skied on Sunday at the Nationals and I skied on Monday, and there was glare in the morning and wind in the afternoon that made in a bit challenging. I can not complain as I was only off a few buoys from my season best score, but other were not as fortunate.

[swbca]

@JackQ This is a screen shot of the 2 boats in M3 at 1985 De Quoin.

This is my number 2 ball at 35 off, with the timer leaning out of the boat and the boat pitched to left much more than it looks like here. In a field of around 60, I was one of the 5 skiers to complete 35off that day, You are correct, the spray was really bad at least on one side of the boat because the boat was badly out of balance. But it was a CC not a MC in 1985.

[Horton]

I tricked 4360 at the 1985 Nationals and placed 3rd.

[D3dude]

This is a slalom forum

[dave2ball]

@D3dude not if you run the forum.

[JAS]

@horton makes me think that i have wasted a bunch of money on new skis over the years, but sure has been fun!

[Booze]

I think @MarkTimm just dissed me.

 

[JeffSurdej]

@swbca great observation and something that has always perplexed me. Go look at scorebooks in late 90’s and early 2,000. All events all divisions the scores are so far down from back then especially trick and jump. yet the pros have greatly advanced. I know numbers are way down but you would almost think only the best would still be around. Really makes you wonder.

[MISkier]

How about this theory? Everyone has been chased off the public lakes and those courses have become scarce. So, the amount of practice is limited to those skiing in private clubs. Perhaps, a large number of exceptional skiers are on the sidelines now compared to 1985.

[swbca]

@MISkier

Good Theory, and its the lakeshore property values chasing away the slalom courses. We paid $40,000 for a modest home on a premium suburban lake near Minneapolis in 1974. We remodeled along the way and sold it in 1993 with slalom course removed. It has since doubled and most recently sold for 1.2 million.

 

When a skier sells his home, his course is usually gone forever. Or if multiple families maintained the course, when the last family sells, the course is gone forever.

 

Many of the skiers who remain active in Minnesota still own homes on Lakes, or are long term ski partners with those home owners. The skiers and their slalom courses have been fixtures on their lakes for decades. When they age out of their homes, and if their kids can't afford their parents homes, the slalom courses are gone.

 

A parallel to this situation. In Minnesota, skiers used to bring home National Medals in Boys, Men1,2,3 along with a smaller number of women skiers. Now the they place in M5 to M7 along with 1 or 2 senior type women in the mix as well.

[Jody_Seal]

input:

a few of the biggest factors of why the m/w 1,2,3 and even 4 is thin are that many of them are launching their lives. Work and starting families.

I have some knowledge in this as both my children are women 2 and now men 3 respectively.

neither live on lakes , never have but they do have economical access to a number of courses and a jump within an hour from their homes.

they have at their disposal state of the art boats as well as skis.

What they don't have is time!

When the State championships are two weeks in front of mandatory regionals that is 10 days before nationals it is very hard to break away from work 3 weeks in a month to travel around the region and nation for the championship series.

my son inlaw who has gotten the ski bug is a Trama ortho surgical PA is on call for 10 days at a time. Monica my daughter is a DPT works 5 days a week in a accute care ward at a local hospital. between the two money really is not the issue as to their participation in the championship series but again time is.

My son Stephen works construction now makes near $30 an hour plus lots if overtime has the same issue. Between the two over the years these skiers have over 20 national titles as well as state and regional records. but again they cant get off work to participate... Time.

Dr. Monica is ready to have a child anyday now and will then have that responsibility and time allotment.

 

In 1993 there were 110 men 3 slalom skiers at the southern regionals as well as over 90 men 4 slalom skiers. i believe that year was the biggest nationals ever, near a 1000 entry's if not more.

The ideology in the sport has not been kind to the dwindling number also. Rankings ideology, the recent approach to apply a level 10 as well as now safesport mandate has dwindled these age groups. seems the big number age groups today are what were the men 3 and 4 in 1992.

 

AWSA has no plans to fix this and have deaf ears when another approach is brought forth.

I do find it strange though that this years nationals the oldest 34 mph men age division beat the youngest 34 mph men age division. It still stands that the top tier men in 3,4,5 and 6 all would be competitive as master men.....

 

Spread States, Regionals and nationals out over more of a three month period there might be more of these skiers participating. ski the men/women 2 and 3 with the juniors and not spread them out 3-5 days apart from their kids might bolster the ranks in those divisions as well.

[6balls]

@Jody_Seal agree it’s gotta change. The only big show shud be nats.

[lpskier]

@Jody_Seal Over which months shall we New Yorkers spread our “more than three month” season. Tournament season here is mid-June to mid-September at best.

 

What works fine in Florida doesn’t work well at all for a very large part of the country.

[klindy]

Don’t forget that MM didn’t exist in 1985 either. So if you weren’t in Open the only other place you could compete is your age group. There were 7 MM competitors this year with 5 getting into 39.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@klindy MM is a mixed bag. In 1985 if you were over 35yo you were pretty much washed up. At the time, Senior (over 35) and Veteran (over 45) were referred to as the "Wrinkled" and "Shriveled" divisions.

 

If my memory serves, we have had between 15-20MM in past years. I really wished it blossomed to a premier event, but that hasn't panned out regardless of scores.

[MrJones]

I’m going to say depth of field is the issue. In the 80’s and 90’s waterskiing was relatively hot and attracted a lot of guys in their 20’s. Lots of them/us were looking for a sport to do after high school or college. Skiing was relatively affordable and fun. Let’s go!

 

Flash forward a few years and those guys have improved and pushed each other. There are 160 skiers at Nats In M3 and it’s tough. You better be improving because your buddy sure is. Sport is getting more expensive but hey “I’m older and making a little more coin. It’s cool”.

 

Flash to the past 10 years. That group I described is now M5 ish. Competition is still tough even though everyone is older. Problem is that now the sport is on private lakes and never seen on TV or the news stand. Even if it was as soon as that young guy sees what the costs are he’s out. There are some, and good on ya, but it is not many.

 

There are a lot of great juniors. Some of them go on to be the pros putting up amazing scores in all events. Seems that most who don’t go that route burn out and drift away from the sport. When I think of the crew that hung with in M2-3 most picked up the sport later and stayed in for a long haul. That route is not happening near as much now. (All this is imho of course)

[Horton]

@MrJones Very wise words as always

[LeonL]

@Booze yeah he kinda did diss you. I, for one, congratulate you on a podium finish. Long time coming but all the sweeter. You said that you needed to step it up to deep 38, and so you did!

[buechsr]

Just an observation post-trip to Maize in light of this thread and so-called dwindling numbers and "growing the sport" mantra, I counted a total of 114 boys slalom competitors and 77 girls this year. By random, I picked 1995 to compare those numbers to 2022. There were 40% MORE boys competitors this year compared to 1995, and 10% more girls. Sure seems something is going well? And that's comparing a nationals held at a relatively difficult destination as compared to 1995's Okeeheelee.

 

I realize this thread is about performances not just numbers so I looked at that too. I randomly picked the (B5) 10th place finisher this year and 1995 to compare. They were within a half buoy. Winner in 1995 was none other than Chris Parrish who got 4@38. Technically, winner this year scored a 3@38, but RAN 38 in a run off. Waterskiing isn't a prune just yet.

 

I understand that the subject is not juniors in this thread, but it's good to see that junior numbers are higher than what they were in the 90s, at least.

[MarkTimm]

@Booze @LeonL no diss intended, just pointing out the names I saw and recognized. Booze congrats on the Podium finish!

[LeonL]

I knew there was no diss intended. Just funnin'. Ok not a word. I know you just didn't recognize the name and make a connection.

[Booze]

@MarkTimm - yeah, just funnin too and riding the high of 38 and podium for 1st time.

[JackQ]

@buechsr, We have young one and old ones. If you take Mens 6 & 7 (what was Mens 3 big bubble back in the day, and we had 60 skiers. Part of the perceived demise is not talking into account the bubble of the BabyBomber demographic. Of course the high cost of the sport, loss of water access and attraction of other activities/ sports are all factors.

[UCFskier]

I would also suggest that back in the 80's and 90's pros or high end skiers kept skiing until the natural conclusion of their careers.

we now see top skiers retire once their collegiate career is over. skiing is expensive and does not pay the pros what it use to. once school is done its time to find work.

[jcamp]

The middle class has been hallowed out. Disposable income is down for a massive chunk of society. Fewer people punch a time clock at 5pm and have time to kill and weekends totally free from work, instead we are answering emails 24/7 and feel like we can barely use our vacation days. Youth sports are insane with year-round travel teams, ID clinics, and expensive one-on-one coaching. Public lakes have waves on them that are literally big enough to surf on. People seemingly would prefer to just get wasted drunk rather than do a sport that takes time, effort and skill. The price of boats has outstripped inflation and earning power. The competition for the recreational dollar is much more competitive than it once was. The barrier to entry for skiing is much higher now than it was when I started behind a 16' outboard skiing a slalom course floated by milk and detergent bottles. The baby boom bubble moving into, through and out of the sport created artificial increases, and subsequently decreases, in participation levels and retail/manufacturing activity.

 

Some of water skiing's issues are self inflicted, but society is MASSIVELY different than it was 20-30 years ago and has created huge headwinds that are to blame for most of our sport's woes. Instead of wondering why skiing isn't bigger or why cornhole is on ESPN, we should be happy that there is still a vibrant, if small, competitive water skiing community that we all still get to be a part of.

[buechsr]

There were 24 Boys 1 (9 and under) slalom skiers this year folks. Not one of them was a local. Last year also had 24, just 2 of which were from Illinois. The sky isn't falling. Future is bright.

[UCFskier]

@buechsr I agree there are some great skiers out there. I think the profile of these skiers has changed like @jcamp said.

[lpskier]

When I was a kid, going over a water ski jump was about the most extreme sport there was. Now folks can do a double backflip on a snowmobile.

[Than_Bogan]

@jcamp wins the internet! Nailed the entire set of issues in one post!