COST OF BOATS

[bananaron]

I am sure all of us are not happy with the cost of boats today.Unless you are @Horton who has a new one every yr. I think a 2023 MC PS probably is around $120,000. Now you can find a 2022 MC PS with low hrs for $89,000. And others in between those prices depending on hrs and equipment.What I think is really different is what people are asking for their boats in comparison to others.You can get a 2019 Ski Nautique  for $103,000.Now if most folks seem to think the MC PS is better who would spend $14000 more for a 3yr older boat.Now I know that Ski Nautique probably has a higher MSRP AND SOME FOLKS ARE BRAND SPECIFIC like one of my ski partners.Or a 2014 CC 200 CB FOR $67,500 or a 2015 cc 200 for $49,000. I think they are similar boats however almost $20,000 difference.Pretty much same hrs and equipment.Or how about a 2022 Malibu with 30 hrs for $88,000 and I bet I can buy it for less.Now for me I can say the big 3 boats would work for me and I probably would not notice Abig difference for my use for slalom and barefoot.Now I know some of you will say you can't compare any 2 boats nd certainly not different brands well they all do the same thing.Even the older boats have gone up to ridiculous prices.How about a 2008 cc196 low hrs and you can have it for $45,000. I bought a mint 2009 cc 196 in July of 2019 for $22,000 less and today its still skiing no. mn lakes.Oh well I think if you are in the mkt today shop around drive and ski the different boats and I think you can find one that will work for you.

[dave2ball]

The price of the boats can very due to hrs, color, the condition. Pictures don’t tell the whole story.   The 2 that were mentioned both have 5.7 motors that are not available anymore which may affect value, some may just want to dump it the boat and get out from under it.  The majority of 200 for sale have 400 to 1200 hrs and some the hrs are on the second motor. Most 200 are going for 70 to 74k.  

[MDB1056]

Unfortunately.....just one of many reasons folks are not getting into this sport

[dave2ball]

@MDB1056 with new boats 110k plus the used boat market will hold its value. Plus a 7  month wait in some cases  even if you can get a current year model. 
supply demand. 

[bananaron]

I love the sport and have been doing it for over 60 yrs however it is very expensive.Not only boats have gone up but look at skis that are selling for $2200 add costs of bindings ropes gloves and everything else.I probably burn 300 gallons of gas every summer and my supplier last summer wanted   $1.25 more a gallon to deliver. I will continue to ski however usually buy used .....

[BrennanKMN]

Makes me think of an old local companies ad slogan (2nd Wind Exercise in MN). "Why buy new when slightly used will do". 

Unless you're a top level skier (into -39 frequently), once you have a boat with ZO anything else is diminishing returns in my opinion. I'm sure money isn't a concern to some, but that extra $50K+ isn't going to knock more than 1-2 balls off my score at best. $50K buys a lot of coaching, gas, skis, courses, lake access...

[DW]

Somebody else's divorce is an opportunity for others, great way to buy those expensive toys at a discount.

[swc5150]

We purchased new boats every year for well over a decade, but my '15 Prostar was and will be my last one (which I sold).  Myself and friends like me were religious boat buyers, but are all out of the market now.  I'm not saying new boats aren't worth the price with materials and labor, it's just they don't do anything that the current '12 200 I ski behind can't.  Good heavens, look what that SAME hull costs today.  I'm just done and have moved on to buying other things that bring me enjoyment.  

[ETskier]

I sold my "Last Boat" last summer, a SN196 ZO.  The proceeds will pay for my club skiing for the rest of my life. I've owned a DD boat since 1975, 14 of them.  The only thing I miss is some big lake boating.  But I can rent an IO or a pontoon every now and then right up the road. New  3 event boats are ridiculous for the price. Used ones sell for more than original wholesale (promo). 

[MDB1056]

@swc5150 and @ETskier posts are great examples of a growing chorus . Part of the ongoing reality check . 

[chrislandy]

9 hours ago, ETskier said:

I sold my "Last Boat" last summer, a SN196 ZO.  The proceeds will pay for my club skiing for the rest of my life. I've owned a DD boat since 1975, 14 of them.  The only thing I miss is some big lake boating.  But I can rent an IO or a pontoon every now and then right up the road. New  3 event boats are ridiculous for the price. Used ones sell for more than original wholesale (promo). 

Unfortunately it's going that way, MC UK has a kitted out 2023 6.0 PS with trailer, tower, seats, bimini etc..... £155k (equiv of $185k) the joys of UK import taxes.

[jpwhit]

I think some of this price variance for different years of the same boat is pretty typical when the market conditions have changed dramatically. I think boat prices are finally coming down from Covid highs and since we're still early in the season, things just haven't fully settled down yet. I bet we see more consistency in pricing by the end of this coming season. 

[6balls]

Some have the 196 priced super high for nice examples.  Almost bought a 07 with ZO in 2010 for $22k but I was trying g to stay $15k and ended up $17k.  11 years of great pulls that boat was.  Ah the days of skiing on the cheap!  The way to ski cheap now is be a ski buddy for someone with a nice boat.  

[2Valve]

At my level, I see no reason to spend $120,000. I'll keep what I have and be very satisfied.

 

[teammalibu]

The 23 Prostar on the floor at

Action Watersports had a price 

tag of 139k

 

[Jody_Seal]

I think that overall its not so much the cost of the boats that is the burr under the saddle. But the continued pushing of the idea that a skier can not be competitive unless they are skiing behind the latest greatest $100K. gimmick machine.

I would wager better then 90% of skiers today that have been in the sport for 30 or more years are not skiing any better then they did behind boats 30 years ago. Many are not due to the extreme amount of torque and hp to make these gimmick machines plow through the water. young skiers dont know the difference as ZO now has been in use for over 15 years. AWSA refuses to get away from the rankings ideology and weekend competition is non exsistant at the less then open elite level. I had a good laugh a couple weeks ago while doing the live online judges clinic when the facilitator stated the overall goal was to make the sport the same conditions from site to site , tournament to tournament. Anal Rankings ideology for sure!

Do we really need that $130K tug to run 35 off? you did it with the $45K tug! You did it with the neighbors old PP boat! New Gimmick machines have piss poor 22 off wakes!!!  herd that 30 years ago! heard that in the early 80's nothings changed there. in reality these new boats are really not all that they are cracked up to be. They are very problematic and replacement parts costs are obscene. The needs to ski are not$100K plus boat.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Jody_Seal

[MDB1056]

Well said @Jody_Seal. 

So glad to have grown up in the days of older boats that also (IMO) have a heck of a lot more style that many of the modern sleds.  Mine will be passed on to my kids . 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by MDB1056

[jhughes]

Cash in hand, be a serious buyer, and then you will see what the actual price of the boats for sale is. Otherwise it's useless negative speculation and complaints for no reason. Boats are always worth what someone will pay for them.

Access to private water and "real work/sacrifice/inconvenience" to get it or show up to ski is the actual problem, the sport has always been expensive. Think of all the people that dug lakes in the 80s and 90s. That's moxie. Do people still have that? As one example- finding a reliable group of guys to show up at 6am (which we have, thankfully) to get good water all summer is way harder than finding the money for a boat.

Edited April 7, 2023 by jhughes

[rockdog]

@Jody_Sealwhy did you sell your 196?

Though I agree with most of what you’re saying, the fact is most tournament skiers won’t train behind a ZO 196 because they’re not being run at any tournaments. As hard as it is to imagine, the 2010-18 200’s have gone the same way. In my opinion these two boat models are the best ski boats ever built and yet they’re basically superseded in terms of tournament machines. I firmly believe the TSC1-3 196 tracks the course infinitely better than a 2022 Prostar, with the TXI so far behind it’s not even in the conversation. Yet both of those are what buyers will go for because they face them at tournaments, despite the cost.

I think if Nautique threw away the current mould and built only 200’s for the next 20 years and only updated colour schemes almost all skiers would be happy. The problem is these companies themselves, year on year profit increase is needed so new models have to be invented to extract more cash from customers and so the circle goes.

[6balls]

@rockdog I think Jody’s point is the vast majority don’t need the exact tourney boat to ski effectively in tourneys.  It helps, the best of the best need em—but for many many skiers improved technique is going to pick u up far more buoys than a $120k boat. 

as a guy who used to train only perfect pass and see zero off only in a tournament and has a ZO tourney best of 2.5@39, I would train  196 with ZO all day long and twice on Sunday.  

It’s not only more like the experience you get now because of the speed control thanwhat I was used to with PP—but the majority of my time is spent in practice, not at tournaments. I want to have a great experience in practice as well at a reasonable price.

I love driving and skiing the 196–so with the outrageous prices of today that is what I would look for.

I make a good living, I can’t justify in my head todays boat prices.  If I took the purchase price of my Porsche Panamera Turbo and my wife’s AMG Benz bought used, and then bought a 196 with ZO I’m well below $120k and could ski just fine at tournaments the limiting factor not being the pull. 

[Jody_Seal]

@rockdog sold boat as I actually had two 196's, a race boat, an old american skier as well as a center console salt water boat. Also we needed a new washer, dryer as well as we are still rebuilding property stuff from hurricane Michael as well as medical bills from hip replacement. I did buy a real cheap unmolested old mastercraft though ...it is getting the 6.0 repower treatment as we speak!

As far as tournament skiers "wont" train behind a 196 or other older boat is not true. There is a reason why repower has become popular as well as affordable in comparison to purchasing new or newer used. I know of a number of three event national champions as well as slalom skiers that train nearly exclusively behind 196's and bubble butt nautiques. For many years KLP ran a Re-powered 04 or 05 Master Craft, if you signed up for practice at the southern regional s last year you practiced behind a PCM powered 05 197 mastercraft. in the last 5 years i think about half of the rounds i slalomed in were behind other then newer towboats with the oldest a 98 E-controlled bubble butt at the Alabama State Championships.

Early in my career with Correct Craft i was informed by one of my mentors Mr. Snook that waterskiers are and can be easily influenced in their heads with BS preconceived ideas and they are like a sewing circle... I dont know how many times I either took a boat to one tournament to have skiers complain about something then take it to another tournament two weeks later and its the best boat they ever skied behind??!!?? and nothing has changed in that regard.

some of you are still living in a bubble, Central Florida is not the only place that skiers compete. central California is not the only place where skiers compete yet thats were a lot of the rules and policy's are coming out of. I am glad that at least they opened up the door for older boat use in tournaments. We are having our second tournament in 5 years at our lake mid May. as I cant get any "Promo" (sic) boats or at least can not secure any guarantee of a current boat, we will have available a 08 196 and a 17 200. it is a invitational competition and in the invitations that went out competitors were notified and they were offered the opportunity to bring their own boats if they wanted too. We will put them in the mix provided they have correct insurance and ZO. I have two that are interested.. 

 

 

[ETskier]

It's sad that the big 3 are still building boats only for the 35-43 off skiers, not us 15-32 offers.  In the past that top down marketing got all of us better boats. Particularly lower and softer wakes. Not any more. The 196s were the best in the wake department and drove the best. My Last Boat was an 06 196 with single puck ZO.  At  B2  34 and now 32mph, pull felt very similar to the new boats. My old 94 196 had almost no wake. The 200s and the pickle fork 197 MCs and older BUs are OK.  Most of the 90s big 3 are good skiing boats for us mid-level skiers.  Now at tournaments, we get to look forward to big wakes and hard rooster tails  in our opening passes. Oh what fun.  Even if I could afford them,  I wouldn't buy one. Repowering and upgrading an old one is the way to go if you are on a budget. Side note, the hydrogate on the new Nautiques can be tuned for a little bit better slalom wakes. But,  only a handful of people know how to do it, and apparently it's a super secret death penalty for the secret to be let out.  Secondly, the microtuners should be deployed for all slalom.  Again, the manufacturer doesn't care about us, it's fine for the high end skiers.  I will add that Mastercraft has worked hard in recent years to deliver a boat we intermediates would like, still $100K. 

[Horton]

@ETskierI am sorry but I find your premise to be false. The higher skilled the skier is the less they care about wakes. By 32 off wakes are almost irrelevant. Boat companies that want to sell a lot of boats really care about 15-28 off at 34 and 32 mph. The current Ski Nautique is maybe the exception but that is another topic.

Yes, a 196 is a spectacular boat. Hands down it should be a hall of fame product. I have owned one and would do so again.

Are you going to tell me that you think a 2014 - 2023 MasterCraft is inferior to a 196 from a mid or low level skiers perspective? If you want to throw rocks at MasterCraft look at  the 2001 to 2013 boats. Since 2014 there is no boat that is more skier friendly. 

Some 200s may have had a rooster tail at 22 or 28 but generally it was the best boat on the market from 2010 to 2014. Any criticism of a 2010 - 2017 6L 200 is suspect in my opinion.  

I do not have as much experience in the Malibu's from a skiers perspective but generally it is a fine product. I am always happy to ski behind one.

I mostly sit in ProStars and I watch a lot of mid and low level skiers. These skiers would not be happier behind a 196.  

[Horton]

Speaking of cost - I had an interesting idea today. Not a totally baked idea but an idea. Found some of the data and I think it makes sense. 

I think that if you look at the MSRP of slalom boats since 1970 and the MSRP of a Corvette you will a correlation. Not a perfect match but a similar trajectory.  Yes you can get a cheap 65K corvette but you can also get a boat without a trailer, Bimini or heated seats.  Not exactly the same thing but you get the idea.

[dave2ball]

I’ve heard good things and bad things at slower speeds regarding the new Nautique. The same with current MC and Malibu. These boats are hand made. The person spraying the boat might have been flipping burgers at Mc Donald’s one week and spraying  100k boats another week.  Same with the assembly. I agree with Horton in the fact the 200 may of had a great 22 or 28 off wake or it could have had a bump that is all in the human factor as they build .  I have not noticed any bump with any of the 4 ski boats when  starting off at28 off. After that all wakes are great. No boat is perfect. Find the boat that works for you and go from there.  

Edited April 9, 2023 by dave2ball

[Broussard]

Quote

"It's sad that the big 3 are still building boats only for the 35-43 off skiers"

This statement is unequivocally false... MasterCraft spent a lot of time, money, and effort to reinvent the ProStar for the 2014 model year in order to create a hull that had friendly wakes for skiers at slower speeds and longer line lengths which was detrimental to the highly regarded trick wake the ProStar 197 had. They again spent a great deal of effort redesigning the ProStar for 2021 in order to create a better experience for the average driver making it easier to handle and track better.

These decisions were made with the average skier in mind as they are the individuals typically purchasing these boats.

[ETskier]

It's sad that the big 3 are still building boats only for the 35-43 off skiers, not us 15-32 offers.  In the past that top down marketing got all of us better boats. Particularly lower and softer wakes. Not any more. The 196s were the best in the wake department and drove the best. My Last Boat was an 06 196 with single puck ZO.  At  B2  34 and now 32mph, pull felt very similar to the new boats. My old 94 196 had almost no wake. The 200s and the pickle fork 197 MCs and older BUs are OK.  Most of the 90s big 3 are good skiing boats for us mid-level skiers.  Now at tournaments, we get to look forward to big wakes and hard rooster tails  in our opening passes. Oh what fun.  Even if I could afford them,  I wouldn't buy one. Repowering and upgrading an old one is the way to go if you are on a budget. Side note, the hydrogate on the new Nautiques can be tuned for a little bit better slalom wakes. But,  only a handful of people know how to do it, and apparently it's a super secret death penalty for the secret to be let out.  Secondly, the microtuners should be deployed for all slalom.  Again, the manufacturer doesn't care about us, it's fine for the high end skiers.  I will add that Mastercraft has worked hard in recent years to deliver a boat we intermediates would like, still $100K. 

@Horton @Broussard I believe I paid homage to Mastercraft both for their 14 and up and particularly for their recent efforts, both skiing and driving.  If I could afford to buy a new one, Mastercraft would be my choice. Sorry if I was confusing. My rant on the new Nautiques stands.

[Horton]

👍

[RAWSki]

@ETskierthere was a pickle-fork 197?  i totally missed that,

And a allowing Correct Craft Inc Another moving part on a slalom boat is AWSA blasphemy!!  haha

I would just like the HydroGate to not shoot water all over the transom....

[spud]

Just for giggles… 

in Australia at the moment 

https://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2023-nautique-ski-nautique-200/OAG-AD-21732272

[Ski2000]

What is that?

100k boat ride over, plus dealer markup. 
That’s rough

[swc5150]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:57 PM, Horton said:

Speaking of cost - I had an interesting idea today. Not a totally baked idea but an idea. Found some of the data and I think it makes sense. 

I think that if you look at the MSRP of slalom boats since 1970 and the MSRP of a Corvette you will a correlation. Not a perfect match but a similar trajectory.  Yes you can get a cheap 65K corvette but you can also get a boat without a trailer, Bimini or heated seats.  Not exactly the same thing but you get the idea.

I've always used the same correlation as well.  Ironically, on Friday I was able to nab a C8 going into build shortly through a dealer acquaintance (original buyer backed out).  Paid MSRP of $69.6k, 1LT will all the options I care to have.  I haven't put pencil to paper lately, but is it possible to get a boat anywhere near this price, without being a promo/demo?       

[Horton]

@spud that is $157,650 USD. it's not cheap, but considering shipping around the world and such it's not as ridiculous as it looks.

Here in the US for decades a very large percentage of a tournament boat were delivered at wholesale to promo guys and then resold the next year for about wholesale. Even the guys that bought boats new from the dealers benefited from the downward price pressure of the promo boats. Now that there no discounted promo boats dealerships are getting closer to MSRP. That is part of the sticker shock we are all dealing with now.

I mention this because I assume MSRP has always been more the norm outside the USA. 

This does not explain the current cost of boats but is one of many factors. 

[Horton]

@swc5150

No you can not get a boat at that price. The C8 pricing might blow my model. Do you think most of then leave the dealership under 100k? 

[swc5150]

That's a good question.  I'd say most on the lots, if you can find them, will be $100k+.  If you're patient, you can order one at MSRP, but it'll be a 9-12mo wait on average.  I'll sell you mine for $80k and I won't put a mile on it, how's that for a deal! 😉

Edited April 10, 2023 by swc5150

[GaryJanzig]

Even if you have the means, it is very difficult to justify spending six figures on something that will depreciate for a recreational item. I am at 2230 hours and I still get people telling me my boat looks almost brand new. The only thing the new boats have that I want is Zero Off. When the time comes, I will get it repowered and retrofitted with zero off. If I did buy a new boat, I would also have to get a new lift and a new tow vehicle. My Equinox is just big enough to tow my boat for short distances. Talking to other skiers at tournaments I heard many of them say the boats are getting too big and too heavy. I have a 1994 Ski Nautique. Other skiers on my lake call it the barge since the wakes are bigger and harder than the newer boats.

 

 

[bananaron]

Its great to see all of the comments and I think we all agree things are very expensive. @Horton you are right about the corvette they are also like many things we all enjoy have gotten very pricey.Look at how expensive skis and all of our equipment has gotten.Docks and lifts here in the midwest are crazy expensive just having our stuff put in and taken out every yr is going up.I LOVE TO SKI and will continue to do so however I buy used and always shop around for the best deal.

[epnault]

@swc5150  Not likely to find a new boat for under 100k these days.

 

Congrats on the Corvette and the great deal.  I am actually really impressed by the team at GM on the C8.  They must have really worked their butts off on voice of customer and value engineering to deliver an outstanding product at a relatively great value.

[MDB1056]

OK taking this thread a bit sideways for just a minute

A new boat will out perform and older one, and a C8 will outperform and older Corvette, but neither can touch the older ones when it comes to cool. 

I have an 83 Stars & Stripes (blue flake), and a 68 C3 427. Both will get far more attention then the new parked side by side. And if you haven't driven a free breathing 427............. you haven't lived  

 

 

   

Edited April 15, 2023 by MDB1056

[2Valve]

On 4/7/2023 at 3:05 PM, jhughes said:

Cash in hand, be a serious buyer, and then you will see what the actual price of the boats for sale is. Otherwise it's useless negative speculation and complaints for no reason. Boats are always worth what someone will pay for them.

Access to private water and "real work/sacrifice/inconvenience" to get it or show up to ski is the actual problem, the sport has always been expensive. Think of all the people that dug lakes in the 80s and 90s. That's moxie. Do people still have that? As one example- finding a reliable group of guys to show up at 6am (which we have, thankfully) to get good water all summer is way harder than finding the money for a boat.

Thankfully, the serious guys (and a couple girls) are still out there on my lake at 7am.

[2Valve]

30 minutes ago, MDB1056 said:

OK taking this thread a bit sideways for just a minute

A new boat will out perform and older one, and a C8 will outperform and older Corvette, but nether can touch the older ones when it comes to cool. 

I have an 83 Stars & Stripes (blue flake), and a 68 C3 427. Both will get far more attention then the new parked side by side. And if you haven't driven a free breathing 427............. you haven't lived  

 

 

   

Well said. I definitely remember my ride in a '67 (427 Tri-power) Vette in high school. These days, a C5 ragtop with a 6 speed does an amazing job when I decide to let off a little steam.

[swc5150]

Old boats are awesome, and old Vettes are pretty cool.  But for me, I need a mid-engine in my sports cars and ski boats:)

[aupatking]

I typed up a very long response before realizing that this thread is turning into the same old “what’s wrong with competitive skiing” discussion. Even in my response.

You can buy an expensive boat or a cheap one and get good. The WILL TO IMPROVE is still the hardest part to find. The reward for being a great skier has gotten so low that buying a $120,000 boat just isn’t there for many people. And most don’t know competition waterskiing is even a thing. 

Buy a new expensive ski boat if you like it. Buy a cheap old used one if you like it. Neither are going to make you a skier. Sadly, buying a new boat offers zero entrance into competitive skiing. And the biggest thing keeping me from getting a 2020+ Prostar, it won’t make me a single buoy better than my current boat

[spud]

@Horton

No issues with any of you take on the pricing in Australia.

Back when the 200 was launched we were selling them with 5.7 and tower trailer for $85,000 at the 2011 Melbourne Boat Show..

12 years ago I understand that but materials inflation etc have not caused an almost 3 fold increase in price .

I am a firm believer that especially here in Australia big increases in both dealer  and manufacturer margin is the biggest contributing factor.

ps we were very happy with our margin @ 85k AUD

 

 

 

[Horton]

@spud I'm curious how much currency variations is also an issue.

In the US  wholesales have gone up by roughly double in the last 12 years. 

[DW]

Two materials costs have 'helped' the MSRP of boats jump.  The old reliable iron small block Chebby (as Jody Seal would say) was phased out a few years ago to be replaced by the LS variant.  All the tooling was paid for so the SBC was super cheap where as the aluminum LS version still has capital expenses as part of the cost along with R&D, etc.  Resins & fiberglass thanks to hydrocarbon content has also seen a price bump.  Add to that, ZO demand (read monopoly & the gotta have factor), all the electronics and presto, customers see a price hike.

Boaters / skiers are also part of the reason for the price hikes, all those bare bones ski tugs people supposedly want didn't sell.  If they did, there would still be a viable market for them.

[S1Pitts]

1 AUD = 0.67 USD

And I thought our Canadian dollar exchange rate was bad enough!

[RAWSki]

@aupatkinggood call on the 'delete' button it is a slippery slope and brings back memories of the Nichols board and a cast of characters. 😉

 

@DW Good Insight for sure, I do honestly believe thru observation and personal experience that training behind a 6L with ZO is beneficial for tournaments, it's cool to see more and more re-powers with both the 6L and even the  6.2.   And as mentioned before too many skiers pine for classic bare bone tugs but even when something is available the same skiers turn up their noses.

[Horton]

@DW Don't forget about  the cost of aluminum. I've been told it's bonkers.

Everything's gone up and it's a vicious circle. When the cost of milk and eggs goes up, you're going to have to pay more to find a guy to spray chop fiber in the mold.

 

[Dano]

I consider owning a boat to be a luxury.  On top of that, a tournament boat is a very specific tailor made item with a very small audience.   I expect them to come with a hefty price tag.  I think manufacturers have done well to continue to cater to this market with any offerings at all.  the profit margins have got to be very small especially at a time when the cost of everything is rising dramatically nearly everyday.  I think those that can afford brand new are going to buy brand new without too much concern on the price. It's something they want and they can and should enjoy it.   Clubs and skiers like myself who don't have that kind of cash have the used market to turn to.  with everything from 1 year old to 30 years old being available at prices for every budget.  It's clear that building a cheaper boat either isn't profitable, or simply doesn't fit with the current manufacturers business profile (factory space, quality of product, customer demand, etc....)  If there was a situation in which a 75k boat would sell like hot cakes, and have a greater profit margin I am sure a manufacturer would be doing it.  The problem I see here is that 75k still is not affordable for the majority of skiers that don't like today's prices so I don't really see this increasing sales. It won't be long and ZO will be the norm on most used boats.  I know a new off the lot boat is currently out of my reach,  but a 10 year old boat, that could be in my future.  I'm fine with that.