Do you think you know what you need to fix?

[Horton]

Do you know what you need to change to run more balls?

[Andre]

Definetely my stack position.My butt is trailing a lot on my offside wake crossing having me pulling late,arriving fast and narrow at the bouy. At 35 off,that's what is keeping me from running it for the last 15 years.Got steady at 32 off with almost 95% success rate in the second half of the season last year but no 35 yet.

[Horton]

@Andre

You have mentioned exactly what I am thinking about. Broken stack / athletic stance / butt dragging whatever you want to call it is so common. I think we have finally come to a point in the sport where we all agree that we what our hips over our feet or some version of that. 

If everyone agrees that this is important then why do so many skiers struggle with it?  It is a hard thing to fix. Should we spend a lot more time thinking how to get there. I know I have put in a lot of energy trying to help skiers solve this but rarely do I see a lot of breakthroughs.   

[Andre]

Just now, Horton said:

@Andre

 

... why do so many skiers struggle with it?    

For me,,I'm missing the fundamentals. Skied for the first time at 25 behind a cuddy cabin,then my small outboard.I was hooked. Never took lessons,never in a club,never coached but i was skiing a lot...the wrong way. 

I miss the tons of hrs you have spend on the water with great coaching when you were young .

Stripper's butt is hard to change at 59. 

[Horton]

 

[MDB1056]

IMO....

Many/most of us also don't take the correct approach to correcting known items. Learning requires repetition . Skiers don't want to JUST do one thing  - like only work on gate shots for 2 hrs . We want to run a whole pass. We don't have that discipline as yes it's a pain to just do one step in our sport  compared to most all other sports.  Can't putt for an hour, go to the driving range, shoot free throws, shoot 3 pointers, have batting practice, bunt practice, work on backhand shots, net shots, etc.  Skiers don't go out and just drill for 2 hrs. How many of us though would be much improved though if worked on only getting a great pullout, great gate, and early 1, or even 2.  If you get a good gate and 1 and 2 you SHOULD be well on your way to running the pass at most any length.  

It's also easier to mentally focus on something like stack/stance/lean for SHORT periods of time vs a full pass when you have more time to get unraveled. Again why drills are so important in training for most all other sports.  When I played competitive racquetball, I'd go in a court alone twice a week and just drill for hours. 100 forehand, 100 backhand, front wall, back wall, ceiling , lobs, cross courts, etc. Do it all, then do it again.  I still have the drill sheets in my bag.  

So reality is that we'd improve faster in a more segmented approach to correcting our errors, but it's also reality that we don't practice this way so our slow progress is admittedly somewhat self inflicted.    

        

[lpskier]

Andy had a back to back two ball course. In one trip down the lake you’d get two out moves, two in moves, two gates and two one-twos. Brilliant. 

[Fam-man]

Call it whatever you want, hips behind feet and shoulders is my biggest hold back. I think it’s because a slalom ski “athletic stance” is different than most other sports. The pull for the boat likely factors in but a “good knee bend” for other sports is detrimental to skiing. Other sports you can have your hips back and still be on the balls of your toes and balanced. In skiing that’s possible, but weak due to the load applied by the boat. So being “athletic” in slalom skiing is trying to learn a new stance. Been chipping away at it, but no big breakthroughs. 

[MISkier]

At the risk of looking less than awesome and hopefully providing something for others with similar challenges, here is my issue.  Credit to those on this forum that have previously identified the arm pull in during the turn in for the gate.  I am working on what Freddie says here already this year (in cold water/cold air, of course).  The key points for me at the moment are standing up slow and turning by pointing the knee across course.  I've had some success with that and the tighter line is huge.  Also, the move with the knee has allowed me to sort of slip my hips forward and under the handle much more than I would before.  I don't know if I am totally getting the shoulders/hips/feet alignment yet, but I will be checking that when it's warmer and time to video.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by MISkier

[503Kento]

My biggest issue (right now) is from centerline to apex.  According to @twhisper I’m letting my arms out and going straight at the buoy too fast to turn resulting in slack which delays acceleration etc., etc.

Could my stack improve, absolutely!  
 

The key to fixing things is absolutely repetition. Water time seems seems so precious running the same pass over and over again can feel like a waste. The urge to get to the next line length can overwhelm what I know is the right thing to do.  This year, I’m committing to running easier passes perfectly and more often. 

[ski6jones]

Even when you know what you need to fix I think most people, myself included, become bored and get distracted by some other thing.  Rather than being purposeful and focused on that big item long enough to really make a change we wander off to the next thing.  Not having a training plan and the discipline to stick with it is probably the biggest reason we get stuck in a rut.

[lpskier]

@ski6jones I couldn’t agree more. Training plans are key. I pull lots of skiers and usually ask “What’s your plan for this set?” before they hop in.  90% of the skiers, the answer is some variation of “What do you mean?” 
 

@503Kento I worked a long time on keeping my elbows pinned to the vest into the buoy, particularly on my off side. Now I learn that is causing me to ski straighter to the buoy than I’d like at short line. 
 
But wait!! You have to have your elbows in!

Bring your center mass to your elbows not your elbows to your center mass, and you do this by keeping your chest up off the second wake. 

[503Kento]

1 minute ago, lpskier said:

Bring your center mass to your elbows not your elbows to your center mass, and you do this by keeping your chest up off the second wake. 

@lpskier Yep, this what @twhisper told me as well!

soo many subtleties in this slalom business. 

[Dano]

I think the knowledge is the part that is holding a lot of skiers back. They either don't know what a good position is, or they don't know how to get there. Last year I signed up online with train with Terry Winter.  He has so much really really good information on his site.  It is worth every penny.  After studying a lot of videos, articles, and getting some direction from Terry himself, I was able to make some progress.   Video is a great tool too.  You can see if the actions you attempted had the desired effect or if that new thing you tried had and adverse effect.  I don't have any where near me to get in person coaching, but if did you can be sure I would be taking advantage of it. 

[03RLXi]

Easy answer! Ski more often.

Winterised today and the boat has done just 12.5hrs for 22/23 season

[mike_mapple]

hard for me to fix perfection 🤣😂

[Deanoski]

I need to stay connected better off the second wake 

 

 

[Horton]

The conversation I have been having with a number of top skiers and coaches lately is about stack /alignment / athletic stance. Most skiers who do not run 38 have some sort of stack issue. The problem with many of those skiers is that they can see the problem on video but they do not know how to correct it. 

Most if us know what a good stack looks like but fail to make learning how to do it our singular goal.  

So it is two problems. 1) we do not know how to fix it 2) we work on something else for whatever reason.

If you work in nothing else until you solve it or you quit skiing is should be your stack.

[MDB1056]

As noted earlier. It’s a focus and repetition issue. Lack of personal discipline to do that is what holds us back 

[Horton]

@MDB1056

I don't disagree with your premise but sticking with my focus on stack.... so many skiers run pass after pass after pass day after day week after week year after year with a completely broken stack and yet are worried about their gate timing or their reach or some other detail which is really irrelevant.

 

[Terry Winter]

8 hours ago, Horton said:

@MDB1056

I don't disagree with your premise but sticking with my focus on stack.... so many skiers run pass after pass after pass day after day week after week year after year with a completely broken stack and yet are worried about their gate timing or their reach or some other detail which is really irrelevant.

 

@HortonTotally agree. There are a few key things that really determine how well we perform, and it's easy to get lost while trying to find some small way to work around the essentials. When you compare all of the top pro skiers it looks like there is a wide variety of styles, but they all know how to get the most out of their leverage.

The closer the skier is to perfect stack through the course the less they need to be concerned with things like gate timing. For example: Videos of Andy and Asher running 39' with almost no gate pull out.

There is always going to be some inconsistency in the speed and width of the skier during the gate turn in. You'd better be able to make the most of what you've got in every situation.

[503Kento]

1 hour ago, twhisper said:

You'd better be able to make the most of what you've got in every situation.

@twhisper Gold Terry, gold! 😀

[scoke]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:29 AM, lpskier said:

@ski6jones I couldn’t agree more. Training plans are key. I pull lots of skiers and usually ask “What’s your plan for this set?” before they hop in.  90% of the skiers, the answer is some variation of “What do you mean?” 
 

@503Kento I worked a long time on keeping my elbows pinned to the vest into the buoy, particularly on my off side. Now I learn that is causing me to ski straighter to the buoy than I’d like at short line. 
 
But wait!! You have to have your elbows in!

Bring your center mass to your elbows not your elbows to your center mass, and you do this by keeping your chest up off the second wake. 

Holy smokes. Your above post probably went by so many folks and is one of the most highly valued posts in this thread.

Thank you so much for posting this as it's an euraka moment for me and something I don't do nor is in my script: Bring your center mass to your elbows not your elbows to your center mass, and you do this by keeping your chest up off the second wake.

I've been watching a ton of videos and scratching my head "how" to do a couple of finishing positions for shortline. I think that above is a milestone in the process. For clarity, I agree with chest up but if you don't drive those hips "out" or "forward" the chest alone isn't good enough for 38/39+. Chest only is probably good through 35.

 

The comment about elbows pinning to vest. This one is hilarious. I've "argued" with quite a few 4@32-2@35 guys who harp on doing this while they create a hinge, break at the waist and ski straight to the buoys. Meanwhile, not progressing any further.

 

I am all about having a clean, clear script of action, but too many skiers lose sight of "when & where" they are supposed to be doing things. It's almost hilarious when their ego kicks while flailing about.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by scoke