Visual Cue For Gates

[Stevie Boy]

Hi Ballers

Do you use Visual Cue for Gates ?

What works for you, Bouy aligment  or Boat Placement or Other Method.

Do you adjust for line lengths ?

[gator867]

For the pullout I put myself behind the boat just left of the trough and look for the right pre-gate and one-ball. As those two start to cross I will make my move to pull out. I like this because I find it works for me at all my line lengths (-28 to -35 at 34mph) since it’s about my relationship to the course and not the boat’s. As the line shortens I am still moving out at the same point relative to the course.

For turn in I look at left gate and 1-ball. I wait until they are 8-10’ separated in my field of vision. This also puts me starting my turn in at the same place relative to the course regardless of line length. Of course it does assume I have consistent height on the boat from my pullout. I may make adjustments if I don’t get high enough.

I’ve been told that this turn in point may have to change at shorter line lengths than -38 but unfortunately I haven’t experienced this for myself yet.

 

[Horton]

Consistency is supercritical. I think you should always change one thing at a time with gates.

Personally, I try to always stand in the same place left of the wakes before pull out. Some skiers are farther left or right – that is another conversation. If you always stand in the same place your visual will be the same.

So my timing to go left for pull out I am looking at the green balls and the boat. You will have to find your own spot.

For turn-in, I look at the gates. I may “see” the boat but I am looking at the gate balls. If my pull-out timing was good I will turn in at the moment that my speed is equal to or just slower than the boat.  Again I am looking at the gates but I see the boat.

There are skiers who do some geometric calculations based on the gates, one ball, and the ascension of mercury. I think these kinds of things only work at specific speeds and rope lengths and assume consistent width.

[ral]

4 minutes ago, Horton said:

and the ascension of mercury

LOL!

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton, I like that ! never thought about it in that way, looking at the gates through the Boat, I have been using the front of the boat but there can be variables with that, especially if width varies, also your focus is on the front of the boat and not the Gates.

Thankyou, I may have to change or at least try to see if it works for me.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@Stevie Boy

So I stand pretty far out, usually where the whitewash meets the smooth water.  

Looking out ahead on the left side of the boat I use the left pre gate and 1 ball, when they intersect I pull out. (36mph) 

I learned that from Ian Trapp when he coached me way back in the day, and I liked it because its very very consistent. 

When I turn in I'm looking at the gates, but I shift my eyes to 1 ball when I hit the whitewash. 

For every line length shorter I pull out a tad later; as a visual probably half an inch.  I do that to be able to get to that wide spot every time since the line will want to pull you back in as it gets shorter. That way you're never changing how hard you pull out that stays the same always. You're just changing WHEN you pull out. 

Hope this helps!

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by ColeGiacopuzzi

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzzi do you even ski anymore?

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzzi

😁

[Stevie Boy]

@ColeGiacopuzzi I am a bit confused, basically if you wait until the Gate bouys appear behind the boat, are you or are you not going to be running late from the get go.

I get Hortons idea of visualising the Gate Bouys when the Boat maybe obstructing the view of the R/H bouy

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@Stevie BoyNo I'm looking at the buoys out in front of the boat. I guess I Could of worded it better. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by ColeGiacopuzzi

[skialex]

I can not really see when a gate buoy is alined with number one or whatever, not young any more, I wish I could… 

I stay in about the middle of the white wash where I have a good visual of the pregates and depending on the rope length and wind I decide at what distance from the greens to start my pull out. Then I try to look down course and be outside the 2-4-6, (I barely see them).

I usually look at the gates to decide when to turn in, but a good advice which really works for me is to look at the driver’s head and start my turn in when it alines with the gate buoys. This works great, but not with all boats…

[6balls]

Making sure I'm out of the trough so I don't have to climb it--I have my marks but move out just a wink later as the line gets shorter.  I may be full of baloney but my thinking is the time it takes to wide/high is slightly less at shorter line due to shorter distance.  

[lpskier]

@6balls if you pull out at the same spot every time, you are pulling out later every time you shorten the rope because you are standing closer to your mark. Let’s say you pull out exactly when the nose of the boat gets to the left 55. Let’s agree for sake of discussion and simplicity that it’s two meters from the nose of the boat to the pylon. At -28 you would pull out 16.25 meters from the 55 (14.25 of rope plus 2 meters of boat). At -32, you are 15 meters from the 55 if you pull out at the same spot. As the rope gets shorter from -32, the question is then whether you need to make an adjustment in addition to the adjustment made for you by the boat and rope. That’s probably personal to each skier. 
 

Nate stands in the trough on his pull out, but he is an outlier on that one 

[Horton]

@lpskier

if the only visual cues are the boat and the green ball then you would be correct but I think that is a bit of reductionist. if you're more focused on the balls more than the boat, as the rope gets shorter, you will pull out earlier in relation to where the boat is in the course.

My point is generating rules on pure theoretical overlook the realities of what's happening in split seconds.

[Drago]

What??

[Horton]

@Drago

Just imagine my above post in clear english 

 

[Drago]

@Horton. I’m trying 🤪

it's all jumbled up in my brain

[rogerw]

It's all about the speed, line length, wind, cosines, algebra, launch coordinates, fractional differentials. trigonometry, and basic mathematics. And all done in a second or two. Quite easy really. In theory.

Practice, however...

BTW, this Zot is nice

[Stevie Boy]

I would like ask, what sort Angle are we looking for or is it a case whatever you can cope with and keep control.without the boat taking control?

[1skinut]

The OP asked about visual clues for the gates. Most of the responses are about the pre-gates. I understand the skier needs to be wide for the gate and the skier should turn in for the gate when their speed matches the boat speed. I understand the pre-gates can be used as a guide to know when to pull out to set up for the gates and timing of this can be adjusted to get the desired gates. 
 

This is all good information; but, someone please answer his question and mine.  You are adjusting all of the above things to get to the perfect spot and time in the universe. Where is that?  
 

Assuming you are at the perfect width and speed, how do you know the perfect spot and time to begin your turn in to the gates? What do you see?  Do the gates appear to be a certain distance apart?  Is there a certain alignment with the gates and one ball?  Is there some other visual cues for the actual turn into the gates?  Does Regina whisper in your ear to turn now?

Do these cues change based on line length?  If so, how?

 

[carlm6298]

Spraymakers podcast! 

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy What?

[Horton]

@1skinut as I have said previously....

Some skiers will give you some geometric formula for when to turn in. Some combination of boat position, one ball, right hand gate ball, some random tule on shore.

I guess if that works for you then I can not argue.   

My thinking is that it is like parallel parking a car. You just have to learn the visuals. When you are too early to too late you will adjust the next time. 

[1skinut]

@Horton Your thinking lines up with the pros I have heard on Spraymakers, etc.

I have parallel parked everything from a compact car to a 28 passenger bus loaded with noisy teenagers without much thought or effort. However, I have a mental block regarding the gates. I wait until I think I can’t make the gates and I’m probably still early. 

[Horton]

@1skinut

so I would challenge you to go radical. go super late. if you missed the gates and miss the pass. who cares? you just need to explore the limits. take a ride or a couple of rides where you're just way outside your comfort zone and then see if you can reset your mental  baseline

[MDB1056]

@1skinut repetition is the key. Go just run gates for a couple hours. JUST a gate and one and two ball tops. Over and over. 

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton 

Just that taking too much angle can be counter productive, I  ask because people suggest I  take too much, one particular coach suggested pick a point in front of each ball, including #1 that ensures you get a good turn and hook up, his point of view was, you can create mistakes by over working the pass, when it's not necessary.

[Drago]

1 hour ago, MDB1056 said:

@1skinut repetition is the key. Go just run gates for a couple hours. JUST a gate and one and two ball tops. Over and over. 

Your driver will love you.

[dleenhouts]

25 minutes ago, Drago said:

Your driver will love you.

Your local gas station will too!

[1skinut]

3 hours ago, Horton said:

@1skinut

so I would challenge you to go radical. go super late. if you missed the gates and miss the pass. who cares? you just need to explore the limits. take a ride or a couple of rides where you're just way outside your comfort zone and then see if you can reset your mental  baseline

Thanks for the challenge. I’ll give it a try. 

[1skinut]

2 hours ago, MDB1056 said:

@1skinut repetition is the key. Go just run gates for a couple hours. JUST a gate and one and two ball tops. Over and over. 

I’m old and broken. I’ll be happy to ski a couple of minutes. 

[1skinut]

59 minutes ago, Drago said:

Your driver will love you.

My driver is my wife. She loves me; but, during ski season it is kind of a love/hate relationship for her. 

[lpskier]

@1skinut and @Stevie Boy As you point out, the question is when to turn (as in “what do I look for?) and the responses address the gate pull out timing and your glide speed meeting the boat’s speed. That IS the answer to the question. 
 

You have to turn in when your speed matches the boat’s. Period. I assume your gate pull out (the “out move”) is duplicatable, meaning you do the same movements every time with the same intensity generating the same glide speed. If not, work on that until your out move is duplicatable.  See the Spray Makers Podcast on gates in Season 1. 
 

In the first part of your glide you are going faster than the boat. When your speed matches the boat’s, turn in. it doesn’t matter where you are (unless it is a tournament). If you are early and miss the gate, pull out  later. If you over run the gate, pull out sooner. The total trick is to be in the right spot when it’s time to turn in, and that is totally dependent on the timing of your out move. If you are in the right spot and your speed exceeds the boat’s when you turn in, you’ll get slack. If you pull out and have to wait “for the right spot”  until you are going slower than the boat, your gate will be narrow.  You want to turn in from a wide spot at the same time,  every time, and again, that means it’s about timing, not some funky alignment of buoys that maybe you can see and maybe you can’t. 
 

@horton suggested that you try going outside your comfort zone and go late for your gate. I agree 100%. If you can find an 8 ball course, when you can consistently go around zero ball up to -32,  you are turning in at the right spot. 
 

Jeff Rodger once told me: “Pull out. When you think you’re in the right spot to turn in, wait. When you are at the point where you think that if you wait any longer you’ll go left of the left gate ball, wait three more feet, aim for the center and then go like hell.”

Finally, I bet your friend that told you you are turning in too hard is seeing the consequence, not the cause. I’ll bet the cause is that you are turning in with your weight primarily on your back foot. When you turn in off your back foot, your ski turns like a windshield wiper and you grab all your load at once from too early a point. Your ski partner sees you grab all your load at once and reports that you are turning too hard. If you can turn in on your front foot by allowing your body to fall to about the 1:00 o’clock position as you turn in, you can develop the same lean angle, more speed, better direction, and avoid getting stood up by the boat before the second wake.  Listen to the Spray Makers podcast on gates. Their description of your gate in move is excellent (as is the rest of the series). 

[BlueSki]

@1skinut read what @lpskier wrote, and then read it again. 

[Stevie Boy]

Had a good listen to spraymakers podcast, definitely the way to go, it seems that rather than run bouys, spending time & money on perfecting your gates, May pay off in the long run, but you are not going to get perfect skiing conditions every time.

It could be expensive 🙄

[MDB1056]

Agreed! Focus on gates. Essential 

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@Stevie Boyit doesn't matter what level you're at, you're always refining your gates. They can always be better. 

[swc5150]

Once I see the boat spray cover the gate ball, I pull.  But then, my gates are no benchmark of excellence.

[1skinut]

@Horton @lpskier and others. Thank you for your advice. I have read your comments multiple times and listened to the Spraymakers gates podcasts again.  I have missed more gates in the last week than I have in decades. I don’t have it dialed in yet; but, I’m getting closer.

Also, I’ve learned that I’m a tail turner. Horton’s advice in another thread to straighten back leg has finally made “stand tall” instructions that I have heard make since. Now that I’m standing taller and not tail turning as bad my glide is much longer. I need to pull out earlier now than I ever have.  

[mike_mapple]

skip the gates, just go right to one ball.

[Adam Caldwell]

With ZO, glide speed is unbelievably critical to a successful, repeatable and consistent gate.  

@lpskier is right on with starting a touch "earlier" as the rope gets shorter. 

For me, a big reason behind this is to ensure adequate glide time to be able to settle and ensure boat is moving away from me prior to the turn at zero-ball.  The other reason for going "earlier" as the rope shortens, is to allow yourself to pull out with slightly less "intensity" such that you don't break into a glide at 38/39 moving too fast.   Typically, the shorter rope gets you moving a lot faster a lot quicker once you break free into your in the glide, and you must have a way to manage that energy. Either going with an earlier, softer & longer pullout as the rope shortens or go at the same point or later, but very hard & short.  ZO typically hates things that are too aggressive.  Hard to get all boats to respond the same every time with a big heavy & hard pullout.

[AdamCord]

With @adamhcaldwell's help I've been dialing in my gate a lot this spring. To his point above, the boat HAS to be moving away from you before you even think about turning in. What I've found is that so long as I wait for this to happen, I actually have a very large margin of error for when I can turn in as long as I get my body moving ahead of my feet. If you sit back and jam your feet/ski between your body and the boat then you're screwed from the start. But if you wait until the boat is leaving you, and therefore the line is getting tighter, and you can move your body before your feet, then you have a wide margin of error to make sure you land just inside the right hand gate ball. 

As far as pullout timing, it's going to depend on your ski setup, pullout body position and intensity, wind, etc. The trick is pulling out early enough that you are consistently slower than the boat when it's time to turn in.

 

 

[RobHazelwood]

21 hours ago, AdamCord said:

With @adamhcaldwell's help I've been dialing in my gate a lot this spring. To his point above, the boat HAS to be moving away from you before you even think about turning in. What I've found is that so long as I wait for this to happen, I actually have a very large margin of error for when I can turn in as long as I get my body moving ahead of my feet. If you sit back and jam your feet/ski between your body and the boat then you're screwed from the start. But if you wait until the boat is leaving you, and therefore the line is getting tighter, and you can move your body before your feet, then you have a wide margin of error to make sure you land just inside the right hand gate ball. 

As far as pullout timing, it's going to depend on your ski setup, pullout body position and intensity, wind, etc. The trick is pulling out early enough that you are consistently slower than the boat when it's time to turn in.

 

 

I’m All for different styles and nothing is ‘wrong’ Ever, if it works for you at your level, it works (at your level). However I would disagree with this one. As a very high level skier (and right foot forward) you may be able to get away with this but in my opinion for most people starting the turn in as the boat is moving away from them gives no space to rotate at the finish of the turn and then they get stuck with no angle or rotation causing them to fall onto the right shoulder heavy with no direction or speed. 
 

yes moving before the boat has picked you up is going to feel a little less comfortable, but the extra speed you gain from starting with more speed and the fact it should be easier to get set at the backside of the turn make it a much better path for most people in my opinion. 
 

also feel this comes down to wording and how you feel this all happening on the water. If you hit the moment perfectly where the boat picks you up at the finish of the turn then winner, but if your waiting for the line to go tight, then starting… I think that’s going to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people. 
 

again.. no hate, there’s a million ways to do this sport, so it interesting to hear everyone take on it!

[AdamCord]

Hi @RobHazelwood no worries, I always appreciate a good slalom technique discussion...

I'm not sure if this is just a difference in perception/feel or poor communication on my part, but when I watch you ski I see you doing exactly what I described. You get into your glide and I don't see you moving into the turn until your speed has dropped below the speed of the boat.

I learned how to ski (well) later in life, so I have had to really think through the mechanics of how a skier swings in relation to the boat. I was lucky enough to spend a number of those years skiing with and learning from Mapple. One thing he always reiterated to me was that he didn't need a ton of width on his gate, he just needed a tight line. For the past 10 years or so I've been experimenting with gates along with Caldwell (me a righty, him a lefty), and while there are differences, one thing is for certain...if you're too free from the boat when you turn in, you're going to take a path through the wakes that separates you from the handle too soon at best, or the worst is you'll turn without a tight line, fall to the tail, and be completely out of position cutting to the wakes.

I would agree that you CAN turn in right as your speed matches the boat, but timing that at every site, with every boat, with every wind condition is really tricky. You need a margin for error. The safer bet is to give yourself a window where you're moving slower than the boat, but haven't dropped back all the way to the whitewash to use as a turn in point. 

I would also say that getting a ton of ski angle before you load the rope is the wrong approach. We want to load the rope by moving toward the wakes with the upper body, then let the ski build angle as it accelerates your mass to center. Again to my eyes this is what I see you doing, but it could be the difference of perception we both have.

Lefty Caldwell for reference:

 

[Dano]

I think a lot of skiers that are not at the higher levels are perhaps trying what the Adams are describing and it can cause them to rely on the rope for support, and they can be rocking back onto the tail and all kinds of problems from there.  I think you have to be able to get the ski turned and set your direction without relying on the rope or rocking to the back of the ski.  If you ski at Adams level   His description probably works well. For me I have to start thinking of turning just a little earlier.

[Adam Caldwell]

@Dano, thats where this concept might surprise you.   MOST. if not every skier Ive worked with at Trophy will fall back on the tail because they do not have the support from the rope.  When the rope isnt tight, instinct mode is to sit back.   Doesn't matter if its 22off 30mph or 39off at 36.    Your right though, you should be able to rotate the ski without rocking back. But this is exactly where a ton of people struggle.

Get the line tight during the glide and have the timing such that the boat is pulling the handle back to center as you turn the ski, and now you have FULL support from the boat and will build energy much more progressively into the gate with a hell of a lot less effort. 

The days of crazy wide gates and tons of angle on Perfect Pass setups are over.  The same moves on ZO boats at 400hp will punish you at 1 and 2 ball with slack.  

If i knew this only worked at shortline I wouldn't be wasting my time here.  Fact of the matter is, I've seen it work for every skier that spends time with me at Trophy and takes a couple passes to give it a true effort. 

[lpskier]

Maybe it’s age and slow reaction times, but I want to start my turn in as my speed and the boat speed are about to be the same. By mentally initiating my run in at that moment, by the time I’m actually moving toward center I have a tight line and plenty of support and lean angle, while at the same time not being overpowered by the boat. In other words and for me, anticipation is an important component of my turn in timing. 

[Dano]

@adamhcaldwell I Believe you that it works,  In fact I have read and watched your videos to try to teach myself and it has helped me. My current gate is very close to your description and is miles better than it was before I had read your suggestions.  I'm sure it helps even more to get some in person coaching from you on this as well.  your coaching might even be crucial if the skier attempting this has less than adequate width, glide speed, rocks to the tail, or has trouble rotating.  Coaching from a guy as accomplished as you would surely move those skiers past those mistakes and skiing into better gates in a hurry.  Many thanks to all of your contributions to this site.  It's very helpful for all of us to understand what it is that you are finding success with.