Turn & Burn questions/strategy

[503Kento]

I’m planning on skiing a tournament in September that will have turn and burn available. I’ve read the rule and my basic understanding is that I can run round 3 immediately following my round 2 set (it’s a 3 round tournament).

I assume that if I fall rather than miss, no T&B available, right?

There is no protected score, right? It’s like I’m starting off the dock.

Under what circumstances would choosing to T&B be a good idea?

What rope length do folks normally T&B at? Normal start or last made pass or ?

Thanks for your insights 

[MISkier]

They should pick you up after a fall and take you back to the original starting direction, if you have indicated before your round 2 set that you are selecting the Turn and Burn option.

It is if you are starting fresh off the dock, yes.  Your round 2 score is over and in the books.  You are starting round 3 with a new opening pass.

I would choose Turn and Burn if you missed a pass that you normally make and want a second shot at it right away without waiting for next round.

I have selected my regular opener, last made pass, and the missed pass I was attempting.  It depends on your confidence level of the pass you want and the score you just received for round 2.

[LeonL]

All that @MISkier said.  Personally, I used to start my t&b round with my last completed pass.  For me that usually meant taking my hardest pass from a different direction.  Just a personal choice, and something for you to consider.  However,  at some sites one direction is a little better or worse setup wise. Consider that as well when choosing start line length.

[ScottScott]

All of my tournament PBs are on turn and burns, I love 'em. Unless wind, or other direction factors,  makes it more advantageous to run the pass you're hoping to get farther down the line one way or the other, starting on last complete pass would usually be best. You're already warmed up and so don't need the earlier passes. If you have decent scores already in round 1, you could go ahead and ski the hardest pass you SHOULD complete, even if you didn't complete it on round 2 (possibly repeating the last pass run.) Remember, if you don't complete that 1st pass you get a score of less than 6, but if earlier rounds had decent scores its not a big deal.

[Horton]

You never have to worry about falling. The boat will come get you.

You can go back out at any pass you want.

If you want to live dangerously you can go back out at the pass you just missed.

Personally, I am always looking to run 38 so I always go back out at 38 even though chances are I will not run it and get a score of almost zero.

[6balls]

One of the T/B we went to you had to go back to last pass made in order to save time for the tournament.  I would miss 38 if I was going to miss something, and thus would go back out at -35 for that tourney.  Bro Jim would never T/B that tourney cuz he was there to ski and wanted all the passes he could get thus would run his full 3rd round.  

I kinda liked getting done early, grabbing a beer and hitting the judges tower.  

[503Kento]

Thanks guys for sharing your experience, really helpful. 😀

[6balls]

The other issue at the tourney mentioned above was that if you did full 3rd round, the sun glare was tough in the direction of what would be my -38.  Diamond like glare off the boat spray out of 1 toward 2 all which was in the shade.  My pupils just could not react fast enough to see 2 ball at the pass that I wanted most and is my most challenging.  So with that my better chance of running 38 if I missed it in round 2 was to get another shot at it in good visual conditions on the turn and burn.  

[503Kento]

Thanks for that @6balls. Haven’t skied at this lake but I understand that it runs East/west so that may be factor to consider. 

[lpskier]

@6balls Well, the other side of that strategy is that some other skier gets both his or her second and third rounds in the glare. I don’t blame you for trying to optimize your set. I just am not a fan of the turn and burn option. 

[6balls]

@lpskier in my best season I ran 11/12 -35 passes in tourneys.  I was running -38 fifteen to twenty percent of the time in practice.  I needed as many quality looks as I could get at -38 in a 6 round tourney weekend to have a shot out the end gates at -38...that was the goal and I hit it with a 2.5 at-39.  How others chose to run their day by turn n burn or not was their own choice given the conditions.  They had the same option I did, and could choose to use it or not.

I respect you though for not being a fan.  In the tournament in question for me more skiers were able to run in a day by having a turn and burn where you had to go back to your last made pass.  In the fall sunlight is a limiting factor in a day of skiing.  My bro Jim ripped -38 into that glare round 3 multiple times--was fun to watch from the judges tower--he always was just a bit better than me.        

[lpskier]

@6balls A TNB starting with last complete pass may speed up a long tournament, but for everyone that goes early, someone has to go late. Also, I’ve seen TNB tournaments where having enough officials on site for the late skiers is a challenge.  Lastly, the skier who is late in the order that does not want to turn n burn is not given the complete rest between sets that he thought he would get. You ski your second round and then you find you’re up for third round in just a few skiers. 
 

I always say that at a tournament, all I want is a fair advantage. If the tournament offers TNB and it’s to your advantage to use it, you’d be crazy not to. It’s not the skier’s job to manage the tournament for the other skiers. My beef isn’t with the skiers. Except in unusual circumstances, I just think the LOC shouldn’t offer the option. If it’s not offered, all “problems” are solved.  

[RichardDoane]

Turn and Burn has more upside than down. A lot of skiers like it. If it’s not your thing then don’t use it, or go to an event that offers it. 

[ETskier]

If I'm early in the running order. Might get my second and third round about noon. Then I can decide what to do the rest of the day. I don't like it if I'm scheduled late in the first round.  Say I ski at 11am, I might not ski again until 4pm.

[6balls]

@lpskier I get ya and fully respect your position.  We may agree to disagree and that is ok. 

My tourney set would be  28, 32, 35, hope to run 38 and get a piece of 39.  I can jump in the water pretty soon and do that again and probably would rather do that than get stale.   When I ski with a ski buddy in practice and we ski 2 sets each isn't that what happens back to back in pretty short order?  It actually makes the tourney skiing more like practice skiing near as I can tell for those that decline the T/B. 

Neither system is perfect and I know there are problems pros/cons with T/B and no T/B.  I like the option.  All good.       

 

[LeonL]

About the only downside I've seen is officials for round 2 may be stuck for a long time if lots of skiers choose tnb.

[RichardDoane]

We do a TnB on the Friday before the Imperial weekend. It does make for a long second round, but that is anticipated , so the CJ makes the tower judge schedule different for the 2nd/3rd rounds. These are skiers who have expressed their willingness to participate by entering the event. 
 

I’m never one to “ski and flee” so being at the lake the whole time is part of the plan. 

[The_MS]

You just have to hope that the driver does not have to pee.  Sucks being the driver or judge in that round 
 

[Drago]

Didn't know the Turn n Burn was still a thing. I did a trial t&b way back when. Submitted results and a poll back to HQ (or whoever the individual was that was pushing for it). 
Overwhelming majority hated it--were actually mad. Hours baking in the sun for judges and drivers. The few that liked it weren't around to fill out the survey 😉

Anyway, fell on deaf ears. It was going to "save our sport".

[LeonL]

Take a tumble and turn and burn might not be available?  Huh?

Two mentions of "slopes".  Are you sure you're on the right forum?

[MISkier]

@LeonL, I suspect an AI account is doing the posting.  Read some of the other posts from it.

[503Kento]

@MISkier yeah, I was thinking the same thing. 

[LeonL]

Or an idiot.

[CharlieThreeThree]

1 hour ago, LeonL said:

Or an idiot.

There's literally no difference between AI and an idiot. 

Where do you think the language models AI is trained on came from?

[Horton]

The AI is getting better. That account had posted 6 times before we all realized it was fake. Scary.

[503Kento]

So, skied the tournament yesterday and chose to T&B like most everyone else as lighting in the evening could have been pretty tough. The photo below is from 9:00AM. Overall, I liked doing the T&B. I had a decent score for me (0.5 at -32) in round one.  Round two I blew my gate at -28 and ended up getting only 4 on a pass I’ve been pretty solid on. I like being able to take another crack at it with having to stew on the bank for another couple hours. Ran the -28 on the retry and ended up with 2@-32 which is one below my PB.

 

[DerrisB]

I’m always nervous to turn-n-burn but almost always comes out in my favor since I’m still warmed up. The interesting thing is recently I heard of a couple different methods of tnb, and I always thought it was just one - a brand new round. The idea of having to run the pass you were on or some other pass that’s “dictated” was new on me.  I guess the most important thing is to get clarification from the folks putting on the tournament to make sure you don’t have to make some rushed decision sitting in the water when everyone is waiting for you to go.  

[LeonL]

That would be new to me also, dictated???  Just avoid that tournament!

[503Kento]

Nothing was being dictated at this tournament. Some folks went all the way back to there opener and other the pass they just missed.  The rule book seems top indicate everything is optional. 

[lpskier]

The Rule 13.3 requires that T&B is at the option of the skier and it’s the skier’s choice where to start. It requires that the T&B option be announced in the tournament announcement. 
 

In practice, it’s often announced on the fly , sometimes it’s mandatory and sometimes skiers are required to start at a particular line length or speed, such as last completed pass. None of these options are permitted by the rules and it’s sometimes done for the benefit of the tournament, not the skier.