You're probably going to hear about this soon.

[EFW]

https://www.metamarine.ca/index.php
Best thing to do rather than ask me is e-mail him. All I can tell you is he is getting close - real close. It will be  very soon. He is looking for investors . ( get the checkbook out) Like I say,  just email him.  Nice guy.

 

[UWSkier]

[Mastercrafter]

I’m all for this technology but their video should really have a half decent boat path without boat guides being run over. 

[BraceMaker]

Ya that part of the video not very impressive.  But on the flip side if its that or your wife won't drive you in the course.... I'd take it.

[mlange]

Looks like it was just the alignment to the gates it was adjusting for.

No reference to cost anywhere that I could find.

[Jody_Seal]

how deep are their product liability pockets? 

 

[Mastercrafter]

1 minute ago, Jody_Seal said:

how deep are their product liability pockets? 

 

I don’t see this being much different than Zero Off or Perfect Pass… not that they don’t need liability insurance.  
 

Assuming they are  not going full steer-by-wire so if it’s fail safe and easily overridden, I’d say even safer than ZO which could full-throttle your boat with no way to slow down… except the safety lanyard we all wear 😂

[thager]

Looks like another huge waste of time and $$$ on the Olympic dream......

[2Valve]

We skiied with a guy in S. Haven, MI last weekend who used a GPS puck mounted to the ski pole. He said it updates an app on his Iphone to show his actual path down the course, which he uses to determine if he's in tolerance. 

I personally would like an aid that shows me my errors, vs. one that does the correcting for me. But that's just me......

[Stevie Boy]

@UWSkier

😂😂😭😭😭😭

[Horton]

GPS steering is likely inevitable.

I believe It could be a godsend or a disaster.

Start with a little history.

Perfect Pass became the speed control standard in the early/mid 1990s. Skiers were able to retrofit older boats for the system and it was not prohibitively expensive. It was new so there was a learning curve but as I recall it was generally embraced without too much friction. Not saying it was awesome for the first year or so but as far as I can tell it did not drive people out of the sport.

In 2008 when ZO became the new standard it was much more disruptive to the sport. Older boats could not be retrofitted without a repower and the pull was nothing like Perfect Pass. The result was that anyone who practiced behind Perfect Pass was at a steep disadvantage when they got ZO in tournaments.

ZO is lightyears better than the old PP but the transition from one system to the other was a catastrophic disaster. It is impossible to know how many skiers quit tournaments instead of getting a new boat but there was certainly a decline in membership. I do not know exactly how it could have been better handled but I doubt anyone on the board of USAWS or AWSA anticipated the fallout.

Currently, the 3 brands of boats have 3 different feels. Some skiers can go from boat brand to boat brand without issue and others find it very frustrating.  Some skiers who practice behind a ProStar struggle behind the Nautique and vs versa. At the Malibu Open last weekend, you heard Pros talking about how they had to get used to the Malibu. This situation is less than ideal. Some skiers are unaffected and the rest of us just have to deal with it.

This brings us to GPS steering. IF the system can be retrofitted on boats 1980 – 2023 for a reasonable amount of money AND IF the feel to the skier is not crazy different then I can hardly wait.  If the system is only for new boats OR the feel is substantially different than the average manual steering, then I say it is a disaster for the sport. We cannot afford to discourage the membership with another wiz-bang piece of tech.

Full disclosure, I have had dinner with some of the Metamarine team. I like these guys and sincerely hope for the success of the product. The sport just needs to proceed with caution.

[Mastercrafter]

42 minutes ago, 2Valve said:

We skiied with a guy in S. Haven, MI last weekend who used a GPS puck mounted to the ski pole. He said it updates an app on his Iphone to show his actual path down the course, which he uses to determine if he's in tolerance. 

I personally would like an aid that shows me my errors, vs. one that does the correcting for me. But that's just me......

Yup, Surepath. Really awesome training tool and can easily be fitted to any boat. Downside is it doesn’t work with floating courses as the wind can move the course making the data useless. 
 

 

[dave2ball]

@Mastercrafter this may not work on a floater either. If the buoys move how would the system know how much to move? Thus causing over steer

[Jody_Seal]

it will probably work well with that paint ball set up that fires balls out along side the boat for a skier to turn... 

I ask about product liability only because it is a needed question to be answered. so far like a politician under oath this question has been dodged!

[paul]

It will not work on a floating course

[UWSkier]

Voltaire said "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

Shakespeare said "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well."

I think this sport is full of good, well meaning people who can't help but ignore ancient wisdom.

Auto-steer removes part of the human element of a sport that's already seen as cold, individualist, and robotic.  Good driving is a skill unto itself, and for me, personally, I enjoy driving EVERY BIT as much as skiing, sometimes even more.  If I'm just going to be a passenger to the robo-driver, count me out.

I have zero fault with people trying to solve unique problems, but at some point, don't we all inevitably just become cable skiers?

[jjackkrash]

15 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Good driving is a skill unto itself, and for me, personally, I enjoy driving EVERY BIT as much as skiing, sometimes even more.  If I'm just going to be a passenger to the robo-driver, count me out.

I thought the same thing about hand driving the throttle, but speed control turned out to be a net plus I think.  I am not so sure about Autosteer; I do think it will completely sap the joy out of driving.  

[BraceMaker]

Two sides to every coin right?

As much as some people like driving I know several people (myself included) who often don't get to ski the course because our drivers find it stressful.  My wife for instance has bad eyesight, she has difficulty picking up on the course far enough out to get centered up and that stresses her out too much to find it enjoyable. This could be a game changer.  Even if it just tried to do a straight path from 55 to 55 that would generally get her on track confidently so she wasn't so nervous about it.  I could probably ski 2-3 more times a week if this tech was on my boat.  Maybe even more.  There are so many other people around me that can pull people behind a boat but I wouldn't have drive the course right now.  That's your target audience not people who pull L/R and have drivers rating they don't need it.

 

[Horton]

@BraceMaker That is an interesting perspective. 

[UWSkier]

14 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

Two sides to every coin right?

As much as some people like driving I know several people (myself included) who often don't get to ski the course because our drivers find it stressful.  My wife for instance has bad eyesight, she has difficulty picking up on the course far enough out to get centered up and that stresses her out too much to find it enjoyable. This could be a game changer.  Even if it just tried to do a straight path from 55 to 55 that would generally get her on track confidently so she wasn't so nervous about it.  I could probably ski 2-3 more times a week if this tech was on my boat.  Maybe even more.  There are so many other people around me that can pull people behind a boat but I wouldn't have drive the course right now.  That's your target audience not people who pull L/R and have drivers rating they don't need it.

 

Can see this point, and this use case, I suppose.  If it behaves like lane-keep assist and gently works with the novice driver, I can see a place for it as an OPTIONAL technology, rather than one that's mandated.

[Mastercrafter]

There’s a whole bunch of people I know who I trust to get me safely through the course, but I don’t necessarily want them driving because  they can’t resist looking in the mirror, or they just don’t take a good boat path seriously enough or want to improve. Therefore.. I tend to avoid skiing with them. 
 

If this took a relatively competent driver and made it so I don’t have to think about what the boat is doing through the course, it’s a giant win for me at least. OR, take your favorite driver and let them watch in the mirror for some coaching, without sacrificing / worrying about the pull. 
 

It may not be a perfect dance with the skier and it make take some fun out of it, but if I could use it, I would.
 

 

[rockdog]

That's a horrendous video to be putting up as a sales pitch I'm afraid.

[DW]

There are 2 degrees of freedom as a ski boat pulls the skier; fore / aft speed variation and side / side steer variation.  Basically, this is simply 'speed control' for velocity.  Think of it more in terms of Accuski, or step 1 towards the inevitable 'can't/won't ski without' steer control sometime in the not too distant future.

Or, put differently, read this thread in 5-10 years and thinking how on earth did we survive having to actually steer a boat.  Who, today would tolerate hand throttle?   Heck, most won't tolerate anything other than ZO with Z box being not acceptable.  When 'Zero Steer' becomes the standard, Auto Steer will be the PP of steer control 🤣.

I know several people who don't get the opportunity to ski the course simply due to lack of capable driver.

[ToddL]

Just remember this...  Tournament Tech flows downhill.  If it gets adopted at Worlds/Nationals, then it will quickly become a requirement for Regionals, State, and ultimately Class C local tournaments and become cost prohibitive, impact registration fees, or be elusive and thus disruptive.   

[Killer]

I spoke with Larry in depth a few weeks ago, he's using his 196 at a lake I ski at, to test the system (no zero off).

Based on our discussion, it may be something at current iteration rec skier would use if they had a driver who ran over the buoys...   he's only tested with skiers into 35off.

It's not even close to being a tournament pull, although maybe for some skiers it could give greens on sure path, it sounded like more advanced skiers would pull it around.

I explained to Larry how some drivers can make great surepath Numbers but the feel is horrible, while others feel good with similar numbers and urged that to be the goal in the system.  

Price was loosely quoted at ~5k.   

 

[OREGON85]

Agriculture had this same conversation 25 years ago. Will it actually work? Is it safe? I can drive better. What about liability? Will farming still be fun? Is it worth the cost? Etc. 

Different circumstances for sure, but the similarities in the conversations are remarkable. One of the big upsides in ag, which has been brought up here, is who can drive. Now you don’t need a highly skilled operator and an operator can last much longer due to reduced fatigue. Someone who would not otherwise be qualified suddenly is. All they have to do is turn the tractor (or boat) around at the end of the pass.

Now the conversation in agriculture is “what else can it do?”

 

[tru-jack]

@Killer  what lake?  I’ve also chatted with Paul that used to run the lake in Newmarket (now Spray Lake) and he was involved in testing a similar or possibly the same system

[BrennanKMN]

Interesting product.

I have a similar view point as @BraceMaker 

There are a few skiers/drivers in my area I avoid skiing with. Not because they cannot keep it straight enough in the course (for my PB into 38, I am not that picky), but it is about the setup and drop. Some of these courses require significantly more driver skill for the pullup and drop than the actual course. I wonder how this product will handle that. 

Of the few drivers I have trained, that was the harder part to learn. Dropping a skier at -38+ is a precision task. Especially on a non-straight setup. 

[Killer]

3 hours ago, tru-jack said:

@Killer  what lake?  I’ve also chatted with Paul that used to run the lake in Newmarket (now Spray Lake) and he was involved in testing a similar or possibly the same system

Ts pond.  Yes he was using Paul's 200 the last few years as well.  Same guy.

[chrislandy]

I think it will be a good thing once bedded in, although hopefully not a one company fits all like ZO for IWWF accreditation.

A concern would be the service life and support in 5yrs+ time, it's a harsh environment on the water and even the main boat manufacturers don't get it right (overheating touchscreens, poor airflow to the engine etc)

[BGrow76]

Sure Path is also working on self driving correct?

[ETskier]

On the very bottom of their web page there is another red go arrow. It takes you to another you tube which shows the boat path with the boat coming toward you. Not awful.

[ForrestGump]

We should go ahead and set the bar so high to hold a tournament that only 3 people can afford to show up.  I love technology.  But this coming to fruition just amplifies all the other issues that have been spurned out of the failed O-Story. I mean Olympic debacle.  

[liquid d]

It must not be very good.  The skier in the video wasn't able to go around any bouys.

[jpwhit]

I don't think this will be same as speed control. I think the majority of drivers didn't really enjoyed handling the throttle manually. So, when perfect pass came out, I think most people really wanted it. It was also the case where speed control isn't really that tough of a technical problem, so the solution wasn't terribly expensive to develop. I know people will say it was expensive, but I think compared to self-driving technology, it's going to seem cheap. I'm going to ignore the transition to Zero Off because that's an unfortunate situation where technology change and patents caused what is hopefully a "one of a kind" misstep in the transition. But I think factoring that in, skews the fundamental question did people really want speed control in boats. Which I think the majority did. 

Self-driving is a much harder problem to solve. Hence the ultimate solution will likely involve a lot of technology. Personally, I don't think you'll ever have self-driving technology for boats that approaches human drivers without leveraging computer vision technology just like self-driving cars. That will also make it possible to handle floating courses which I think will be necessary for a solution to be economically viable. I think it'll also be required to handle situations where something enters the course. Such as a kayak. I think without this, liability will be an issue. 

As others have already pointed out, the driving outside the course in many cases is just or more important than inside the course. And again, I think for a solution to be economically viable, that will have to be handled as well. 

I think it’s at best 50/50 that self-driving boat technology will ever become the norm. I think the solutions, that will be good enough to be worthwhile, will end up being too expensive to allow for widespread adoptions given the size of the boat market. Also keep in mind that speed control applied to the entire boat market. Wakeboarders needed speed control just as badly as slalom skier. This technology will only apply to an even smaller market of just 3-event boats.

I think if self-driving boat functionality does become the norm, it won't be developed by someone specifically for boating. Just like with engines, it'll likely come from the automotive industry. There simply isn't the revenue potential to support the R&D cost for truly ready for market solution to be developed natively. You'll need to use already developed technology re-purposed from the auto industry to make the economics work IMO. 

[ScottScott]

I can't imagine that we'd be looking at anything that really functions beyond the 55s. Start up and drops are tied so closely to throttle that it would take a coordination between the 2 systems. I think you're going to have to still try to get lined up coming into the course before the 55s, and we're a long way from something beyond that. We'll see some sort of automated startup throttle control before that, and I'm not sure we've seen much indication that that is on the horizon. Those of us with back issues would love to see that tho.

[EFW]

28 minutes ago, ScottScott said:

 

"We'll see some sort of automated startup throttle control"

That has been done -Accuski

[ScottScott]

@EFW Guess I should have clarified to be integrated into ZO

[EFW]

Look at the black plastic case under the wheel. That is the whole unit. That's it. I was under the misconception thinking about it that it would be something working off the tiller arm with servos and complication. Nothing of the sort. Pop the wheel off, slide that on the splines. Put the power to it and you're good to go. It's way simpler than installing Perfect Pass. He did pull someone on the 12 m line All in the green on sure-path the other day. He is non-stop tweaking this to get it right. He's going to get it. It is absolutely at the point right now where if you're looking for a pretty straight path this will do it. Well maybe they're not ready for the world's yet but Rome was not built in a day. He is not a skier. He was asked to do this. So he's doing pretty good if you ask me. He gets input from some of the best. Now on the cash side of it he told me they're looking at $6000 US. He asked me what did I think. I told him "I won't be buying one."  But hey let's be honest I've got a 33-year-old boat, Z-Box Perfect Pass I have to be careful with what I do with my cash. I think if someone's laying out a 100 grand plus for a new ski boat they're probably going to be okay with that figure. I seem to remember that when ZO came on the scene how the complaints were that it wouldn't give you anything or gave you too much. So if the driver now is intuitive with the skier and it varies from driver to driver well if this system gives you nothing and simply seeks a straight line won't the playing field be leveled somewhat for everyone? Again, these are just my thoughts. I am just a hot dog eating American so I don't know very much. 

Btw-all the driver does to disengage the system is to steer it yourself. It will sense resistance and disengage. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by EFW

[epnault]

When asked by my dealer when we are ready for our next new boat I told him "When they offer a heated steering wheel and self driving with inputs via GPS + a Vision system".  I love course skiing but I started so late in life and will never go to a tournament.  That doesn't mean I don't have goals and aspire to get better.  I want to eliminate as many variables possible.  My wife is a great driver and always available but most of the times I ski with buddies on the lake.  When I train with my wife as a driver I am nervous about running up into my more challenging passes.  This solution doesn't solve everything for me but it is exciting to see progress and innovation to address this problem.  I am all in and will pay for it integrated from the OEs

[Wish]

We will rock you up and down the course….

 

 

[VONMAN]

Agricultural tractors on a farm at 5-6mph is one thing. A boat moving at 36mph pulling a skier who is pulling against the boat, well that's a whole different kettle of fish. Going down a floating course, or not, with a cross wind will be a good trick. How much money will this puppy be? Will it be required to have a membership, take Safe Sport. Don't forget it's driving record. Sorry I'm old and there is a reason I've survived this long. Good luck with your Endeavor.

            A Good One Ball Gives You Six......................It's all in the Reflexes.