Don't be this guy

[Horton]

[MDB1056]

A BIG +1 for not skiing with worn ropes. Skiing with a buddy’s rope at an alternate site in August. I’d brought a handle but not  my rope. He hooked it up . A couple passes later, came around 5 ball and was in full lean at centerline when it broke . Worst fall I’ve ever taken . A completely different type of fall. What’s weird is that as soon as it broke I knew what had happened- even before I hit the water . CHECK YOUR ROPES. 

[dchristman]

If only my rope was that worn at 32.😏

[6balls]

My ribs hurt just thinking about that breaking at the wake on me.  

[Horton]

FYI

https://www.masterlineusa.com/

https://slinesusa.com/

[skialex]

When I see this, I always warn the guy to not use it and buy new. 
we spend way too much money on skiing to save on ropes risking getting injured.

 

[Wish]

Spent a few days in MN this past summer and had the chance to ski with a good friend . Got a look at the rope he was using and asked if he had another. Ended up using a rope I think he used to tubers but it was not worn, faded and dried out. When I got back to FL, I ordered and shipped an SLine to him before he has a chance to get out again. Scary what he was using .

[mikegile]

The Gambler!    
 

Does anyone else feel like no matter your skiing level ropes always break at the green section?

 

[MitchellM]

For all the money we spend on this sport, I'm amazed when people will go cheap on something like a rope.

[LeonL]

Do you think a rope suffers in the rare occurrence of being on the shelf at a pro shop for 2-3 years.  Probably never happens, but?

[alex38]

I try to save $$$ on ropes by getting them on sale or shopping around, however, THERE IS ALWAYS AT LEAST 1 IF NOT 2 BRAND NEW SETS READY TO GO. 

[Horton]

@LeonL

yeah I'm not exactly a chemist but I do believe that there is a reasonable shelf life for the poly the ropes are made out of. I would not be happy to go ski with a rope that had been sitting in a pro shop for 10 years.

[Ski_Dad]

do you think every other year is reasonable for a 15 offer - my new rope probably saw 75 sets last this year.   A few guys I ski with will get into 28 off behind my boat.

Got an S Lines this year and it's really nice.

[lpskier]

@Ski_Dad A lot of guys that start at 28 will take the 15 and 22 segments off their ropes. If you know anyone that does that and if you are concerned about wear  on your rope at the 15 and 22 loops, swap out your old segments with someone else’s unused ones. This addresses loop wear only; at some point your whole rope will get to the end of its useful life and lose its elasticity. At that point it should be replaced. 

[aupatking]

What’s wrong with that green loop Horton? Don’t you know that the weld is the strongest part in metal? That rope looks so worn it’s welded the strands together. Must be stronger now😂.

for all of you who can’t understand sarcasm, poly ropes do not work like metal. That rope is used up, dangerous, trash, whatever you want to call it. Use it in your shop to tie up extension cords. Should be plenty safe for that

[101driver]

I have the same problem as @Ski_Dad with the 15/22 off section wearing out due to most skiers off my boat being at that level. 

I have 2-3 new ropes each year. I start with rope 1 before it wears out I let my fat friend ski off rope 2 then when rope 1 is worn I switch to rope2. When rope 2 is worn i inspect both ropes and take the best sections from each and make a new rope up, splicing one section to give 15off. Both ropes same brand same age same work so they match up. Anyone wanting shorter gets to use rope No3 which becomes the first rope of the next season.

To qualify if I was running shorter than 22@34 I wouldn't bother. It's just with most only running 15off between 26-34 the main rope stands up well it's the ends that get hammered because of how many passes they do at that speed / length. You short line skiiers out there different problem and I am not suggesting this for you.

[Horton]

@101driver it sounds like you have a system which deals with the wear at the end of the loops but ignores the fact that with use the ropes become less and less stretchy. Unfortunately there is no definition for what is the right amount of stretchy. If you have any orthopedic shoulder / elbow issues or want to avoid any orthopedic issues, you don't want to ski on a rope that already has 100s of rides on it, even if the loops are fresh.

I guess the argument could be made that if you're spending time on longer lengths - give in the rope is less critical. I don't know if it's true or not. Skiing on blue or purple probably means higher max loads in the rope but but I think skiers take some amount of slack hits at every line length so maybe skiing level is irrelevant?

Anyway, my whole obsession was skiing on fresh ropes is that a new rope is just friendlier on my OLD joints. 

 

[OREGON85]

On 11/19/2023 at 7:04 PM, aupatking said:

 Use it in your shop to tie up extension cords. Should be plenty safe for that

But not for a swing! I tied up a swing with and old rope I found and my kids found themselves in the dirt rather than swinging in short order. 🤣

[Horton]

@OREGON85 sounds like you came close to breaking it yourself. Trust me it is not a pleasant experience to break a rope on the way to the wakes

[101driver]

@HortonGood points very well made. Having reflected on your argument I will be moving some way towards your position on this subject next season, how far I need to reflect some more. To date my needs have been purely is it safe for my crew, how can I maximise use of this item. This year my skiing has changed I made a conscious effort to ski less, put completely focus into every pass, I have sought out and found a professional instructor who works for me and my needs. In short I am now on a very focused program. I ski with a very wide circle of crew in order that i always have crew when I want to ski (work gets in the way) I am finding a growing divide between where my skiing is going and where most of the people who ski of my boat want to go. Nothing wrong it's just I want more. Everything to date including ropes has been to support the status quo. Those two ropes this season did close to 5000 passes, how many passes do I need just for MY SKIING next season and would I be better buying a masterline each year just for my needs? Reflecting on your points @Horton you make a convincing argument. 

As always BOS inspirational for positive reflection about my own limited perspective

[Horton]

@101driver 5,000 passes? Are you sure?

[Drago]

6 hours ago, 101driver said:

would I be better buying a masterline each year just for my needs?

@101driver the answer is a definite Yes.

[thager]

5000 passes equals approximately 833 sets (6 passes/set) at say a really quick 10 minutes per set equals 8330 minutes so 138.88 hours. Wow, that's one really busy ski season!

[101driver]

Not me doing 5000 passes the ropes! I personally did 1089 last season  I usually ski with 3 people alternating which I prefer. sometimes just me and my daughter sometimes 5 of us. I keep a record of every session who skied how many passes I did how many sets they did fuel burnt etc. I don't have an exact figure but from that it looks like the boat and kit did 4.5-5k plus trick and jump

[101driver]

@thager yes your figures look about right. pretty much all I do in the summer is ski and work back to back 4 on 4 off plus 3 18 days off in the ski season(start mid March to end of Oct). I have a caravan at the lake so I live there when not at work. The down side is everything else get's pushed onto winter so I have had to buy a new wipeboard for the list of jobs because the other one is full. By end of season everything is wrecked because I have  not done anything but ski all summer. So at the moment I am rushing round trying to fix everything and hopefully will do so in order to have next summer off doing what I love. That is the motivation to go out in the cold and do the jobs I should have done last summer.

[101driver]

What sort of hours do you guys put on your boat and kit? there is a serous reason for the question as I am questioning what I do next year and how I spend my time and money.

I put 189 hours on the boat this year. No motoring out, the boat lift is at the end of the slalom course and we usually don't dock we just stay in the course on the boat and ski back to back off the boat.

I burn't 1860 litres of fuel

As prev stated the boat did I estimate some where between 4.5 and 5K passes of the course I skied 1089 passes of those. @thager is right 10mins is tight for 6 passes I work off 12 mins a set on a raid 14 mins is normal for us with the boat engine off for pick up @thager is probably write for boat hours clocked at about 9-10mins, never measured it.

[LeonL]

I understand the loss of stretch due to age.  I also think it's much less critical at 15 off.  There's so much more rope to stretch.  Even with a relatively new rope I can easily feel the difference between 28 and 35, from Deepwater start on.

[Horton]

@101driver

So you take about 200 rides per year.... yes you should have your own rope and change it annually 

[101driver]

Interesting observation/experience @LeonL As an engineer I would expect the statement "there's so much more rope to stretch" to be true. As force  extension and length are all proportional so in your example 35 off is .about 66% of 15off. stretch or extension should be proportional. But I suspect there is something else going off here. @LeonLstatement "I can easily feel the difference between 28 and 35" this rope shortening in engineering terms 78% to 66% =12% I suspect you feel a lot more than 12%, now I know you are a lot higher on the boat especially compared to 15 off just swinging back and forth. But even that doesn't explain what you feel and I know what you state you feel is what lot's of others experience. So something else is happening which makes that stretch way more important to you high end shortline skiiers than me and the others idly swinging back and forth.

[101driver]

You win @Horton I relinquish! 

The question for me has been much bigger. I ski with lots of different people they all use my kit boat and are welcome. I don't keep my stuff just for me I share it freely.........................You have unwittingly taken a cork out of a bottle which I have been for sometime unwilling to do. The genie won't go back in.

Decision made, strategy change buy a new masterline rope just for me and spend my time traveling and skiing off professional boats working on my technique. A lot less skiing but high quality, still use my boat at weekends just for fun and of course Dad daughter time.

To those who helped me come to this conclusion...............THANK YOU

 

[skialex]

Where I ski, there are only ski schools, no private lakes or private boats. No annual fee or club membership, you pay by the set.

So the common thing is that the schools provide the ropes and the handles. New skiers don’t have any of those and more advanced have at least their own handle. 
I encourage people to have their own rope not just handle. 
Ski schools only change their ropes when they are ready to brake…

If you do the math, on weekends, they pull like 40 sets behind a boat per day… (not all sets are pulled by the school’s rope) each rope can have more than 150 sets a week and they use them for weeks if not months. My yearly rope use is their weekly use.

So I educate other skiers about the importance of having their own rope, for safety and for not damaging their joints on a dead stiff rope.

I wouldn’t ski those ropes. I change mine after about 200 sets and donate it after that… 😂

[101driver]

@skialex interesting you are coming in at about the same as @Horton for me to change my rope every year at current usage. Planning on Skiing off ski school boats a lot more next year my usage should drop. Highly relevant point @skialex about the risks of that.

Ok so 79 ski days this season new strategy 2.0 sets average provisionally 138 sets per season. I have just bought a masterline trick handle so just slalom. If I use masterline it is straight from factory so minimal shelf life there for I can put a flag on 200 sets on spreadsheet.

Any one else have a view different to @Horton or @skialex about me going with 200 sets?

Ohh and I guess I will need a new handle too..................I can see where you guys would go with that, it's taken me years to wear that horrible rubbery wrapping off mine and get down to the shiny aluminium.

[MDB1056]

Echoing much earlier comments once again -  Strongly recommend S Lines in addition to or as alternate to Masterline. Outstanding quality at lower cost 

[101driver]

@MDB1056 Thank you for timely prompt. I had missed that. I have ordered two. Holiday deal and if you guy's recommend then..............if I am not going to be that guy anymore I need to spend some dollar!!!!! and get with the new system.

logging off now before @Horton comes up with some logical and reasoned explanation why my 10 year old ski needs replacing.

[Horton]

@101driver just message me your shipping address and credit card number. I'll order it from Performance. You'll have your new ski in about a week

[101driver]

Thank you for the kind offer @Horton all in good time, just be gentle with me for now. I have took on board the new bungee cord ski rope philosophy.............and that is going to take some adjusting to. I normally can't ski on anything new because I always ski on a rope like an iron rod. I am going to go with it.......go with my coach which I got last year........ski more selectively with only people / boats who can/want to drive the course properly. This will take me to somewhere else ...........and yes a new ski might be that happy place.......i'll let you know!

[GaryJanzig]

I buy four sets of slalom lines and handles. I rotate their usage every day or two. I retire them when I start to see any fraying. I get a few seasons out of a set of 4. Mostly Masterlines, but had a couple of the Performance Pure ropes which lasted me several seasons. 

[101driver]

@GaryJanzig Do you have any idea how many sets/passes you get out of each of your lines?

[DW]

Sun / UV exposure is also key in rope decay.  Do your best to keep ropes out of the sun when not in use.

As Horton noted, rope stretch has a decay function over # sets.  Different ropes and rope length all factor in the equation.  Shoulder / joint pain x age has a direct relationship to rope stretch.

@101driver - you need to add a few columns to the spreadsheet, distance travelled on your ski, #buoys rounded, liters of fuel per buoy, etc 🤣😂 
You note 1860 liters consumed over 189 hours, that is impressive fuel economy for a tournament ski boat, typical usage is in the 4-5 US gallons / hour.  Unless I fat fingered the conversion you average 2.5 gals/hr.

[GaryJanzig]

@101driver    

When I take them off the rack in the garage I check the loops for wear and check for fading. If I see anything I retire the rope. When I am done skiing for the day I take the rope out and bring out the next. I ski from April-October in PA, mostly dawn patrol. I don't count the number of sets. I usually get 4-6 seasons out of 4 ropes. 

[101driver]

@GaryJanzigThanks for the reply, your usage roughly fits with the Horton recommendation of 1 season 1 rope for me. Your rotation system is interesting as I have ordered 2 new ropes from s line plus my unused spare already in boat.

@DW No tearing up the spreadsheet and starting over!!!! The body strain stuff interests me as does the engineering elements. Probably the most important element of this for me has been  the BOS community input especially Horton making me look at something differently. Then seeing that my strategy was wrong.

[101driver]

@DW done the maths, your right no way can it be 2.6USG/H somethings gone wrong. The fuel used is right because I paid for it! wish it was 2.6!! typical around 3.8 -3.9 average in prev years. 5.7Lt LT1 inj 190. 

ANYWAY new policy: my boat will not be doing anything like the use of prev years. Definitely not 4.5-5k passes and whatever hours of the course next year with everyone using it. As @Horton instructed I shall have my OWN ROPE and change it before 1.2K passes/ or 1 year.

NEW S _LINE Ropes pic below for use as instructed by Horton, I was so impressed when they came I have ordered a handle from S -lines. And with the money saved by the new policy I have bought a reflex plate as well.