Would you rather train your easiest pass, or your hardest pass?

[jgills88]

To be a little clearer, if you could only work on one pass on any given set, would you rather work on trying to make your opener as perfect as possible, or would you rather work your way up to your PB and take as many attempts at it as you can?

[Broussard]

Neither, your second or third pass is where you should spend a lot of time running back to backs. Get the opener out of the way, then spend time where the rhythm and cadence is closer to your hardest pass, but you still have time to think and work on things.

[Horton]

Expanding a little on what @Broussard said.

I assume that your opening pass is just easy. Because it is not very challenging you are less likely to learn anything. Sure there are times when 6 passes at your opener might be a good idea but not often.

You want to design our training so that you do not spend the majority of your time skiing below your level or beyond your level. You want to find that pass you can run it nearly every time but you have to exert discipline to run it smoothly. When you are practicing a pass that you can barely run you are literally practicing skiing scrappy. I think it is a terrible mistake when I see skiers running up the rope until they fail every ride. You need to bang on your ultimate pass sometimes but NOT all the time.   

I will use myself as an example. My typical tournament & practice score is 4 @ 38. I can run 38 on occasion and I have had streaks where I have run it every day but those streaks do not last. So even when I am skiing great, 38 is where I am skiing totally balls out & hair on fire. There are lessons to be learned there but if I want to work on specific skills and gain repetition I will go to 35. I would guess that 75% off all my passes each season are at 35.  My goal for a typical ride outside of peak tournament season is to run as many perfect 35s as possible. If 35 starts to match my goals and a few 38s start to fall, I will spend more time at 38 but as soon as things slip back I return to back to back to back 35s.

The point is to practice skiing as technically as possible and not spend all your practice just thrashing behind the boat.  

 

[UCFskier]

I like to train my second hardest pass.

[Horton]

On a similar subject and maybe a little heterodox – I like to start at a harder pass than most skiers at my level. I go off at 32 instead of 28 because 28 is not challenging at all and is profoundly different than 38. By going off at 32 I have to be “switched on” immediately off the dock and can not practice lallygagging on an unchallenging opener.  So in practice, I almost always run two 32s as a warm up and then in a tournament I have options. I do start at 28 in tournaments if I feel the need for  more warm up or playing the wind or whatever.

The traditional approach is to have 3 or 4 passes before your really hard pass in a tournament. From my perspective that is a lot of pulls and turns that are dissimilar to the pass you really care about.

[Drago]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:17 PM, jgills88 said:

To be a little clearer, if you could only work on one pass on any given set, would you rather work on trying to make your opener as perfect as possible, or would you rather work your way up to your PB and take as many attempts at it as you can?

Yes!

[101driver]

This thread has been really useful to me. Winter is when I reflect on the season and make my plans for doing it better next year. Last winter the big takeaway from this forum for me was @lcarnessuggestion Mastery book which I bought and read. The big change in how I approach my skiing was @ski6jonesquote "practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect". All this worked REALLY WELL last season so I am keeping. Somethings did not work so I am so I am ditching those. 

@BroussardTakes this philosophy of focused practice to a next level for me. @Horton you explain and illustrate the application very well.

Really happy, this forum has really helped me understand where I go wrong and how to do it better next year. To all those who take the time to post and help others thank you.

[dwfrech]

Not everyone can train in an ideal fashion.  Sometimes one's work prevents 1 or 2 practices.  Then, by th time you go out again, you might not have the same expertise/edge you did when you had been practicing at the frequency you wanted to do it.  I'm not sure I'm right.  Just observing, that when you get out there, it might not be going all that well.  Or it may be going just perfect.  Whatever I have seen for myself in those situations, that's what helps me try to "cut the line" or just continue to figure out what's wrong.  BUT.  I also agree ... as Horton said, some linelengths are not relevant to way-shorter linelengths.  The way you swing and how you must persist by connection, to get wide, those things don't matter as much at longline.  Anyways, merry XMAS.  Vive le shortline!

[DW]

One of a few sports where the 'field of play' changes for every pass (ie- inning/set of downs/possession) in competition.  Adds a level of complexity to the ideal training methodology.

[Dano]

Maybe depends on what exactly you are working on.  For me if I’m trying to work on timing or rhythm, I try to work on those things on a pass that is challenging but i can still run routinely.  If I’m working on technique I might choose a very easy pass so that I can  really focus on executing what I’m trying to achieve without ending up swimming. Results in lots of turns, lots of practice and hopefully a skill that sticks as you move up the line.    
I do at times hammer away at my hardest pass with lots of attempts.  How else would you learn it?    It does  humble you very quickly, and exposes your deficiencies so you know what you need to go work on.  Regular coaching would be tops on my list but there are no options near by.  Video, and an attempt to self coach with the keen eye of some ski buds  is all I got.  

 

[Chirod]

Easier passes all day long. Every successful change to my waterskiing in the past 5 years has been from working on things at my easiest pass, and _slowly_ working the changes up into harder passes. Running deliberate, smooth passes is hard at all line lengths and all speeds, and to often I see skiers ignore flaws at their opening passes just because they ran the pass and weren't feeling rushed. That said, you do have to keep the feel of your hard passes, plus they tend to make your flaws obvious, giving you something to work on.

[GaryJanzig]

In the spring I free ski for two weeks at 36 MPH, then for two weeks I work on my opener only. I like to mix it up. Most of the time I go out and start with my easiest pass and work my way to the hardest. Once I miss a buoy or fall I start backing down each pass until I am back to my starting pass.  Other days I go out and practice my second hardest pass to work on getting earlier and wider so I can progress on the next one. 

[Horton]

6 hours ago, GaryJanzig said:

Most of the time I go out and start with my easiest pass and work my way to the hardest. Once I miss a buoy or fall I start backing down each pass until I am back to my starting pass.

@GaryJanzig Everybody is a little different but if we skied together I would BEG you redesign your skiing methodology. 

[GaryJanzig]

On days with a strong headwind and tailwind I run two passes at each line length so I can practice each pass in both wind directions. Other days I go out and simulate a tournament. If I miss or fall I start from the beginning and try again. I struggle to run 32off consistently so some days I work on that pass. 
If all goes well I will get more than 4 sets a week this coming season.

 

[Horton]

I understood the headwind/ tailwind approach. It's not what I would do but if it's really windy you kind of have to do what you have to do.

As for the rest of your methodology, I totally understand if you just want to do it your way, but I don't think that approach is likely to help you round the most balls in the long run.

[VONMAN]

Example: you are struggling with 32 off. Go back to 28 off and run super sets (6 to 9 passes) with the emphasis on running 28 smooth and clean. Work on getting wider and earlier to the buoy line with good line load behind the boat. When it becomes slow motion and your vision see's all that's happening you are ready to run 32 off. You must be able to destroy 28 off and recover from any fumble you make. Own It!

[Horton]

I agree with @VONMAN except that I am not sure about "super sets". I say you do not want to ski past when you are getting tired. That often means practicing bad habits.   

[VONMAN]

@HortonBack in 2008 I was struggling with my 35off pass and one of the skier's in the club who could run 38off turned me on to super sets. He had me start my next set at 32off cold off the dock. I'm thinking I never start 32off the dock but what the heck! I run the first pass, the second, the third and at the end of the fourth I drop at the end and I'm feeling winded. I focus on making a smooth 5th pass and I broke thought and found I'm in the zone now. Pass 6, 7, 8, and 9 were just as smooth. The only reason I stopped was I was getting dirty looks from people on the start dock. (our rule was 6 passes or 3 falls per set) No missed gates and all perfect end course times. Needless to say I ran more 32's that summer and 35's were now starting to fall which gave me a peek at 38off.

[Horton]

@VONMAN everybody's different. All I'm saying is if you are truly running out of strength, squeezing out additional passes is probably teaching you bad habits. if you've got the strength, just keep skiing. I don't know why not. I know some guys in insane shape that run a crazy number of passes.

[The_MS]

If you do super sets at 28 off, you will get better at 28 off but the only thing it may help you with at 38 off is stamina. 
If you want to get better at -38, do super sets at -38. 

[Hucklefin]

As someone who just started skiing the course last year (with no coach) I had to laugh at this because I pretty much try to ski a PB every time I go.

I hope this doesn't take us off topic, but for me, I don't get to do anything other than free ski 80% or more of the time, so when I get to take a few sets, I really am not sure what to do for passes to practice.  All of this is at 15-off. I usually start with just running 30mph which has always been easy for me. From there I bump my way up to 36, which I am scrambling and late to every ball unlike 34. 

[Fam-man]

To the original question, I find my "opener" to be vastly different than my hardest pass so I do not spend much time there. Many sets I actually skip the opener and quickly get to my second hardest pass where I focus on technique. 

When working on my hardest pass I will always try to ski 6 turns even if it means going inside a ball to keep rhythm and momentum going. Some of the folks I ski with have only seen 2 ball on their hardest pass and I think that may be due to not understanding the rhythm and boat timing.

Full disclosure, I do not ski tournaments and I consider my opener to be 22 off at 32mph, my hardest pass to be 32 off at 34mph.

[Horton]

@Fam-man why is your second pass not your opener? 

[Zman]

48 minutes ago, Fam-man said:

When working on my hardest pass I will always try to ski 6 turns even if it means going inside a ball to keep rhythm and momentum going.

I often do the same on attempts at my hardest pass. Six turns. Sometimes being just inside a buoy, or 2.  Although, my missed buoys are usually on my strong side, being wide enough but turning in too soon, just up-course of the buoy. Which seems incredibly stupid.

I believe I'm just too impatient, and coming off the handle too soon. You would think this would be easy to correct, and maybe it is for most folks. But, me...?

[Horton]

@Zman I think this is not a bad idea occasionally. Is your second hardest pass as perfect as you can get it? You have to spend some time at your hardest pass but too much time there is actually practicing missing.  

[Zman]

7 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Zman I think this is not a bad idea occasionally. Is your second hardest pass as perfect as you can get it? You have to spend some time at your hardest pass but too much time there is actually practicing missing.  

Agree. I don't tend to "bang away" at my hardest pass.  If anything, I need to cut the line a little more often.  Not this time of the year though with passes limited by the cold eather.

Oh, on my second hardest pass, most days they feel pretty good but not as consistent as I would like.  Often, I will run all of them while still trying to make fixes and improvements. They feel best to me when I don't seem to be working physically hard, and feel like I have a moment of "relax" time waiting on the buoy, allowing the ski to swing when it's time. Make sense? 

Thanks, J

[Fam-man]

@Horton I consider 22off at 32mph my tournament opener for a few reasons.  To have 3 good full passes before 32 off 34mph which I rarely fully complete. Answering in the context of the hardest pass being the one I complete <50% of the time. Being in Alberta Canada the season starts late and ends early so there's only 4-6 weeks where I'm skiing my best.

I also do not ski tournaments so only attempt that opener a couple times per year when practicing. Generally ski a lot of 28 off and increase the speed in non-tournament increments. 32mph, 33mph, 33.5mph, 34mph because I enjoy that line length and shorter

[scoke]

Smells like lots of "junk buoys" being run in here. 

 

The opposite of modern business coaching, sports psychology and positive mental approaches pushing for the next level and honest personal accountability.

Modern terms which could be read up on, deployed or  other:

• Deliberate practice
• Clarity of execution
• Floor of performance
• Feedback loop evaluation process

[Horton]

What  @scoke said 4 months ago