Switching from RTP to Reflex R binding

[mcsd1992]

Happy new year everyone!

Getting the itch for some skiing early this year. Last year put a damper on our season due to the constant rain and since there's no snow yet this year here still, I'm looking to order some new gear early! 

I've currently been running an Edge front binding and a radar ARTP in the rear. Curious from those of you (if any) that have made the switch from an RTP to the reflex R style rear binding. Did it work for you? What were the challenges you faced if any? I'm curious if i like the free heel because i can move my ankle a little more freely so if i should just stick with that or maybe make the switch. 

[Deep11]

I ski RTP during the season and reflex R-style in the winter - because with the R-Style I can wear a neoprene sock comfortably as the temperature gets down to freezing. 

Going from RTP to R-style with sock I feel no difference whatsoever. In the spring going from R-style to RTP takes a couple of sets as things are just a more “loose” with the RTP. 

Actual performance (for me) no difference at all between the two, but with the RTP you can do cool dockstarts and take your foot out before you drop 😎also as the lake level goes down less likely to damage bottom of the ski on any rocks around.

[Horton]

@mcsd1992

A RTP or kicker is superior and people who skied their whole life on RTPs or kicker's often have better technique than people who spend their ski career in something more restrictive like a full double boot or an R-style.

The reason why guys like me use the R-Style is because I have more than 40 years of skiing with some sort of double boot system. Transitioning between double boots and a kicker is not as hard as changing your front foot but it's a big deal. My child will never use double boots and anybody I would training from scratch would never use double boots.

On the other hand, if your current kicker is not optimized, it could suck. if you think you're back foot is moving around more than it should, the project would be to optimize your kicker. I haven't even stuck my foot in the current RTP so I haven't given this whole project much thought but looking at pro skiers what I see is rubber RTP that fits very snug and then sometimes I see various heel straps.

this would be a great subject for future discussion.

[Horton]

it's pretty cold in Idaho right now, so maybe @twhisper can chime in all this. I think he's the only human in history to comfortably switch back and forth between RTP and full double boots. ( he also switches between 1 and 2-handed gate and can ride a horse side saddle )

[lpskier]

I don’t disagree that an RTP is preferable in terms of performance. However, from the injury avoidance perspective, I think a double boot of some sort is likely safer than a front boot and kicker. With a kicker you can have a fall where your back foot comes out and your front foot stays in, leaving your front ankle exposed to serious injury. Perhaps the best option is a kicker with a releasable front boot, such as a Reflex. 
 

I will also say that changing back to a kicker after years in a double boot (hard shells in my case) is very challenging. 
 

Below is the 2023 aftermath of a 1973 fall where my back foot came out and my front foot stayed in. 

[Terry Winter]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:11 AM, mcsd1992 said:

Happy new year everyone!

Getting the itch for some skiing early this year. Last year put a damper on our season due to the constant rain and since there's no snow yet this year here still, I'm looking to order some new gear early! 

I've currently been running an Edge front binding and a radar ARTP in the rear. Curious from those of you (if any) that have made the switch from an RTP to the reflex R style rear binding. Did it work for you? What were the challenges you faced if any? I'm curious if i like the free heel because i can move my ankle a little more freely so if i should just stick with that or maybe make the switch. 

I think optimizing the RTP is the ideal scenario. I don't think there is going to be any performance or safety advantage with the R-Style. All of the elite level guys use a RTP. Like Horton was saying the R-Style is kind of a tweener for guys leaving the double boot system, but don't feel comfortable enough going to the RTP.

The basic rubber overlay for the RTP seems to be the preference over something adjustable.

One difference you might notice is the height of the RTP footbed. Some of the guys use no footbed at all with only grip tape on the plate. The Wileys is pretty thin too, and then the HO has some padding, with the D3 and Connelly being a bit thicker. I have never used the Radar RTP, but looks similar in height to HO. That rear footbed height has a pretty significant impact on the attitude of your ski and how quickly/easily you can engage the front of the ski into the pre-turns. 

[Mastercrafter]

.... this makes me think I should mount up the RTP I bought last June and never used, and perhaps give the R-Style a break for a while. 

 

[aupatking]

My only question would be, why the change? If it’s for cold water and a neoprene boot, yeah, go for it. Otherwise I totally agree with @Horton. I wish I had never learned to ski in double boots. I’ve tried and tried to go back to a RTP but just can’t get comfortable. My kids will never learn about double boots 

[Terry Winter]

20 hours ago, Mastercrafter said:

.... this makes me think I should mount up the RTP I bought last June and never used, and perhaps give the R-Style a break for a while. 

 

It has been a seriously challenging process for me, but I have learned a lot about skiing by going through it. 

One thing I have found is that it takes a lot of time going from the double boot to the RTP, but I can go back to double boots very quickly.

[ghutch]

Since we're on this topic I'll give my side of what I've done. Always skied double boots- Reflex front, Radar rear. 34 mph- deep 35-to mid 38 on a good day. Tried switching several times over the years with absolutely 0 results. Always struggled to get up with a RTP and if I did, running a pass was out of the question. Absolutely could not turn the ski. I tried the R style and a semi modified RTP but could not make it work. Always went back to the Radar rear. Still not wanting to give up on the RTP another buddy had made the transition from double boots using the Reflex RTP with the buckles. I tried one and it felt pretty solid, like my foot was "locked" in. It took several sets but I have been able to run passes and even into 35. My confidence is getting better and I'm hoping I can stay on it. At this point I don't see why I can't. Now just waiting on warm weather and the rewards of skiing a RTP!!

[Zman]

I ditto a lot of the above in the difficulty of skiing with an RTP or even the Radar hybrid after decades of double boots. Although I leave my rear boot loose, my feeble attempt without a rear boot was not good.

I have to admit, I did not give it a fair chance.  Like @aupatkingsaid, why bother?

I didn't like it, I went back to what I am comfortable with.

But, part of me still wonders, what I am not doing "correctly" when freeing up my rear foot that makes my sking seem so out of control?

And, if I were to persevere through the transition, as @twhispernoted he did, would I learn some valuable technique improvements I could take back to double boots?

Thoughts!

[mcsd1992]

still haven't purchased anything lol

Does anyone have any experience with the Wiley's vs reflex? I'm leaning towards the reflex because it looks a little more adjustable for tightness/comfort but I've never had any experience with either. planning on finally getting down to Florida this month to do some skiing so i am definitely making a purchase in the next week or so. 

 

...Of course i could always just purchase both and go from there 🤑

[UWSkier]

I made the double boot switch last year due to a hip problem that requires me to kick in on starts.  I messed around a bunch with various RTPs but settled on a Wileys.  What @twhisper said above about the footbed thickness was actually a huge deal.  The chunky RTPs feel nice underfoot, but have substantial effect on stance and ski attitude.  They also tend to have overlay materials that feel better dry, but are not as grippy wet.  The flat Wileys plate with nice grippy old-school rubber is the most secure RTP I've found.  Sometimes there's no school like the old school.

Because I like the feeling of something on my heel from 20+ years of two-booting it, I molded up a plastic heel cup and glued it down to the back of the footbed on my RTP.  It's not pretty, but it's effective for keeping my foot in the right spot while still letting me kick in.

[ghutch]

@mcsd1992 I would recommend starting with the Reflex with the buckles. Again it helped me and I never thought I would be able to ski with one. Used a Wileys yesterday and felt good. Hoping I have made the transition. My only warning.... Get a third buckle to go over the top of your foot. If not the rubber will rip. Happened to mine and also another buddy twice. He added the third buckle, I tried getting another buckle with no success so just cut up an old Wiley rear binding to the rtp overlay and it worked. Good luck!

[Deanoski]

Willey  RTP   Modified 

 

[mcsd1992]

i think i might go with the reflex due to the fact that i can tighten it down more. i'm not sure how tight the wiley's will be around the front of my foot and i don't want to risk it being too loose. also the footbed doesn't seem to be that much higher than the wiley's one. 

 

if anything either one will have a much lower footbed than the radar one i would think. 

[buechsr]

Last week I saw a RTP that used a snowboard binding toe ratchet strap for the heel....on my to do list to try now. 

I've tried unsuccessfully multiple times to get out of double boots, never to feel confident.  Of course, that leads me to ski hips back in reliance on my back foot.  Really wish I could find a way to ski "on" my front leg better.  Going to try to frankenstein something this weekend.

[UWSkier]

20 hours ago, buechsr said:

Last week I saw a RTP that used a snowboard binding toe ratchet strap for the heel....on my to do list to try now. 

I've tried unsuccessfully multiple times to get out of double boots, never to feel confident.  Of course, that leads me to ski hips back in reliance on my back foot.  Really wish I could find a way to ski "on" my front leg better.  Going to try to frankenstein something this weekend.

This is my Frankenstein setup.  It's ugly, but it works great.  Low enough to kick into, and keeps my heel from sliding laterally on the plate, which is the biggest mind-screw when switching to RTP.

 

[buechsr]

3 hours ago, UWSkier said:

This is my Frankenstein setup.  It's ugly, but it works great.  Low enough to kick into, and keeps my heel from sliding laterally on the plate, which is the biggest mind-screw when switching to RTP.

 

what is that a horse denture?

[APB]

I use Jessup skateboard griptape strips on the foam of my rtp. Never slide around. Once it wears out… peel and restick new pieces on. 

[vtmecheng]

Thank goodness I never went to double boots. Tried it once and it was horrible. On binding height, Corey Vaughn talked about it some in a TWBC podcast. His rear leg is a bit shorter and the T-Factor has a thicker sole. To balance that out he has put plastic under his RTP. Corey stated that the spacer has a big impact on how the ski feels. Just one more example, though if @twhisper says it that's probably enough proof for us. I do something similar since I'm on a MOB. The Radar ARTP is a bit thicker and I made plastic shims that go between the ARTP and the binding plate. That way I don't add stiffness with either a more rigid single spacer (separate layers can bend easily) or by raising the binding plate up (that would have the same effect as an I-beam). I've played with the number of shims to make sure I can get to a good position. It makes a big difference.

[UWSkier]

14 hours ago, buechsr said:

what is that a horse denture?

LOL thermoplastic resin.  Get it hot, stand on a concrete surface on a sheet of parchment paper, pull it out, let it cool a bit, then mold it around your heel.  Then you just measure/test fit it 3-4 times on the RTP, make some guide marks, and glue it down.

[mcsd1992]

@vtmecheng I also am in the same boat as you (haha) I never could get used to double boots. A lot of guys I ski with always used them and I was the only one who ever used at RTP. I know there’s always been a huge discussion about the safety of double boots vs non release with rtps, etc. for a long time but not trying to spark that conversation again lol. 
 

@APB I might have to make some adjustments using that idea..I probably have some old grip tape somewhere around the house. I did talked to performance today and they gave me more info about the Wiley so I might buy that one too and return which one I don't like. 

[buechsr]

3 hours ago, UWSkier said:

LOL thermoplastic resin.  Get it hot, stand on a concrete surface on a sheet of parchment paper, pull it out, let it cool a bit, then mold it around your heel.  Then you just measure/test fit it 3-4 times on the RTP, make some guide marks, and glue it down.

Got it.  So a glorified horse dental impression.

[Bdecker]

My reflex r-style liner is shot and I’m thinking of playing with a kicker for a few sets to see if can make the transition   My kids have the radar BOA kickers which would be what I would try.  

[503Kento]

@Bdecker You might want to try the Radar HRT too.  I transitioned from double boots to the HRT without drama.

https://perfski.com/collections/ski-bindings/products/radar-2024-vector-boa-hrt-rear-aluminum-plate

 

[Dano]

I moved to the Radar HRT from double boots a few years back.  Foot feels familiar and secure.  It did take me more than a few sets to really learn to trust it.  I think it's a pretty good option.  It offers a lot more freedom of movement than a double boot and also keeps your foot feeling secure on the ski.