Start of Season FIX

[travtitle]

32 off / 34 mph

I've had this same problem forever, but I've been working hard to fix it for three years will little success. I've read everything, listened to the podcasts, had excellent instruction and I can't seem to whip this: 

My inside arm separates from my body at the pre-turn.

Before the season starts and I read again all the techniques and instruction posts, listen to the podcasts and watch all the videos again, I was wondering if anyone has a fresh perspective on how to focus on staying with the handle instead of having to make the perfect turn each time because I've given myself no wiggle room. 

[Rednucleus]

Posts some vids so those better than me can critique your skiing

[travtitle]

[Horton]

@travtitle

After watching your video I have good news and bad news.

The good news is that your issue is easy to diagnose. The bad news is your issue is one that a lot of skiers struggle to fix.

The problem is not that your handle is moving off your hips. The problem is that your hips are behind your feet.

The traditional coaching phrases are something like “keep your hips up”, “drive your knees forward”, “push the handle down” or “Suck less”.  If you are old enough you were likely relentlessly told to bend your knees as a key rule of water skiing. None of this is categorically wrong.

The reality is unless you are a uniquely talented athlete, more than a little knee bend will move your hips back and once your hips are not aligned with your shoulders and feet you are basically a victim of the boat.  

I have written about a lot.

6. Most skiers who do not run 32 off do not have a good “stacked position”. “Stacked” is shoulders over hips and hips over feet. If you are not stacked almost anything else you work on is a waste of time and gas.

a. To be stacked is to have your back leg bent equal to or less than your front. The more you bend your back leg in relation to your front the weaker your position and the more weight is on your back foot. Some pro and elite skiers achieve this with a lot of forward knee bend with both legs. The bottom line is where your hips are in relation to your feet.

b. Personally I try to ski with relatively straight legs because I think it is the easiest way to move my hips over my bindings. 90% of all the coaching I give involves some version of “stand up”, “extend your legs” or “press both feet away from your body through the wakes”. There is nothing more important in skiing at this level than getting in and staying in a stacked position.

https://www.ballofspray.com/forums/topic/31479-10-things-to-shorten-the-trip-from-zero-to-32-off/#comment-428234

 

The point is to move your hips forward. You need your butt hole to align as close to your front ankle as possible. Few skiers ever get even close to this.

Some elite skiers do this by driving their knees and ankle forward. If you can do this, then you should. The problem with this is that when many or most skiers try to do this they squat and moves their hips back.

Worse most skiers bend their back leg MORE than their front leg resulting in an even less athletic stance and their hips farther back. Honestly, everyone’s back leg is almost always more bent than their front leg. The question is how much.

For me, “straight legs” is my cheat code to getting my hips (butt hole) as far forward as possible. If you can get your hips over your feet with bent knees & ankles then do it. Personally, I can not.  

For my personal skiing, I just think about pushing on both feet. My heels need to be down and I am trying to press my feet away from my chin / strong with my legs. I have heard elite coaches say that this approach may push my feet forward and I concede that this could an issue.

https://www.ballofspray.com/forums/topic/51815-back-leg-straight/#comment-852932

 

If you read this thread you will see that @twhisper adds some nuance to the idea. He has Ninja Master status in my mind so if you choose to only listen to him I endorse that.

https://www.ballofspray.com/forums/topic/43629-compressed-or-straight-legs/

 

Also Lucky and Jeff

 

 

Note Jeff's legs at centerline

[Andre]

Good post John!

[travtitle]

Yes, thank you. I promise to think of very little else before the start of the season. 

[Horton]

@travtitle

so from a practical perspective what I would advise that you do is try to be taller, especially on your gate and one. The goal is to do it throughout the course, but first you need to experience what it feels like and get comfortable with it.

The other question is how you're going to think about being taller. it might be a simple as being stronger with your legs. for some people it is feeling like they're pushing on their feet. in the case of gates and one you have the opportunity to be very tall on your ski before you turn for the gates and then try to maintain that position.

unfortunately, some skiers will translate these concepts so they're throwing their shoulders back. obviously this is not the goal. The real goal is to actually get equal pressure going through the soul of both feet.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4lcJqzOUBD/?igsh=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==

look at Joel at centerline.

[scoke]

Pretty good skiing considering. 
 

unfortunately, 35 at 344 behind a zero off boat is going to be an Everest climb. 
 

1) you’ve got the wrong Palm up. It’s detrimental to your hips being tucked under the handle and being worked outbound 

2) even  if you have the best position in the world “stacked” (archaic term) it doesn’t matte. Why? By your mental model of water skiing revolves around PULLING. The boat will always own you as you pull. 
 

read all my previous posts about “squat and pull”. You’re right in the heart of the bell curve. Results show too. 
 

but don’t let the tone of my post get you down. 
 

YOURE asking the right questions!!!

[travtitle]

I will try all of these things (the palm change included) and see where that gets me. Thank you both for the feedback. 

[Horton]

51 minutes ago, scoke said:

you’ve got the wrong Palm up.

@scoke good catch 

[sridleysc]

Jeff Rodgers skis with, what you call, the wrong palm up. 

[scoke]

2 hours ago, sridleysc said:

Jeff Rodgers skis with, what you call, the wrong palm up. 

LOL

[Hockdog]

@travtitle and I ski together quite a bit, I suggested swapping feet, but he was very reluctant………

[Than_Bogan]

At a high level, I agree with what everyone else has said.  But if I were standing in the boat coaching you, I would address your specific issue with a focus on your shoulders.

Your shoulders are leaned toward the boat essentially all the time.  In this configuration, you'd need impossible tricep and core strength to hold the handle down to your hip.

Instead, you want your shoulders to go as far away from the boat as possible.  In order for this to happen, your arms will have be straight (think about how any bend will just pull your shoulders closer to the boat), and your hips will have to go toward the boat (again if the hips come away that means rotating your shoulders more toward the boat).  This means that improving where your shoulders go will magically repair these other issues.

You want to have the feeling that you're hanging your entire upper body off the end of the rope.

When you watch the best slalomers, you'll see surprising variation in exactly what they do with their knee bend and exactly where the rope handle is relative to their body.  But if you look from hips to shoulders, all of them have their shoulders way away from the boat such that their upper body is basically in a straight line with the rope.  Even more interesting is how much they stay with that as they ride the handle out.  The upper body stays broadly in line with the rope even as the edge begins to change underneath, creating the so-called Reverse-C position for a moment.  THIS is what results in the handle remaining close to the hips.  In most other positions, it would require impossible strength to force the handle there.

[JAS]

Kind of following what @twhisper alluded to in the  linked post.   I had instructor suggest that I pretend that a broom stick was coming out of my "arss" and point straight it down between my feet.  I appreciated the "pretend" part of the tip.  Did I say Lucky?

 

[travtitle]

 

On 3/23/2024 at 9:13 AM, Than_Bogan said:

At a high level, I agree with what everyone else has said.  But if I were standing in the boat coaching you, I would address your specific issue with a focus on your shoulders.

Your shoulders are leaned toward the boat essentially all the time.  In this configuration, you'd need impossible tricep and core strength to hold the handle down to your hip.

Instead, you want your shoulders to go as far away from the boat as possible.  In order for this to happen, your arms will have be straight (think about how any bend will just pull your shoulders closer to the boat), and your hips will have to go toward the boat (again if the hips come away that means rotating your shoulders more toward the boat).  This means that improving where your shoulders go will magically repair these other issues.

You want to have the feeling that you're hanging your entire upper body off the end of the rope.

When you watch the best slalomers, you'll see surprising variation in exactly what they do with their knee bend and exactly where the rope handle is relative to their body.  But if you look from hips to shoulders, all of them have their shoulders way away from the boat such that their upper body is basically in a straight line with the rope.  Even more interesting is how much they stay with that as they ride the handle out.  The upper body stays broadly in line with the rope even as the edge begins to change underneath, creating the so-called Reverse-C position for a moment.  THIS is what results in the handle remaining close to the hips.  In most other positions, it would require impossible strength to force the handle there.

Thank you--this is helpful. I watched the video again and what you said here rings true. I have more strength in my arms and shoulders and I am concentrating my strength there instead of my core and legs where it should be.