Advice for newcomer

[75Tique]

Guys, Help me help a friend.  He's been working on a course for about 3 years after open water skiing a handful of years.  Doesnt get on the course too often, maybe 10 times a season, but even so, he seems to be stuck at this level.  He even did a 3 day session at Cobles a while ago.  He's heard all the buzzwords a billion times, stay on edge, stack, hips-to-handle.  But not seeing any progress.  He is skiing at 15 off, 28 mph.  Seems to me he should at least, by now, be able to complete that pass, but he has not been able to. I'm not too far ahead of him (despite being a lifelong skier, only a few years on the course, I am currently getting into -28, 32 mph (hey, legit speed, "mens 7") but I am clearly not a good coach and havent been able to get him to the next level.  Somewhere, from someone, dont recall who, I heard a pro skier refer to "urgency"  I think that's a great term for getting around the ball and across the wake.  My friend seems to lack that urgency.  Any tips?  TIA.

 

[MISkier]

He seems to be trying to ski that pass like he is seated in a chair.  His upper body is upright and, as such, he is skiing on a flat ski.  It might help if he thought about leaning away from the boat more.  On a shorter line pass, I was once told to hide my shoulder from the boat and need to lean away against the line to do so.

I think he should also avoid "arm skiing" No pulling in on the rope.  Straight arms as you lean away.  Pulling in on the handle also pulls you upright and flat on the ski.  The handle is currently high and away from his body, which adds to the imbalance as he hits the wake.  Instead, pin those upper arms and elbows to the front of the vest, keep them straight, and lean away.  He should slice through the wake rather than bounce through it.

The best part of his skiing seems to be the pull out just before the glide and the turn in.  Incorporate more of that throughout the pass.

Many others here will have better tips, but that is where I would start.

[Rednucleus]

A week at ski school would be a great investment.  Many things to adress - take it from a 30mph 15off hack!

[03RLXi]

I won't offer any advice as I'm not much better, however do have a look at the really valuable advice I've received. 

 

 

[markn]

In the videos, he looks very narrow for the gates.  Far too much hip/handle separation resulting in flat ski and no angle. and "draggin arse"  with shoulders forward will never generate speed.  Appears to use the buoy as the point to begin turn resulting in getting farther and farther down course.  

Perhaps try the "lean drill" by putting rope on 28  or 32 and practice leaning drills on the side of the boat to get comfortable with a more solid leaning position.  Work on getting as wide  as possible before the buoy and initiating turn prior to the buoy.  He might even try keeping both hands on the handle. 

Attached is a photo showing body position approaching wake from 4 to 5 ball.  Not great, but notice shoulders, hip and handle position allowing for ski to be on edge and creating space to the next buoy.

Use some time on the water working on fundamentals rather than getting frustrated chasing buoys

Good luck and keep at it.

[buechsr]

Hard to run the course if you don't get wide enough around 1 ball.  

What ski is that?  Seems awfully narrow (read: draggy) at that speed.  While there's plenty of form improvement to be had, he needs to be on something more stable and less reactive in the turn to learn width and the "shape" needed to run the course.  Obviously that shape changes dramatically as speed goes up and rope gets shorter but as he was not even close to running any of those passes, I'd suggest a radar butterknife, slow the boat to 26 and let the rope all the way out.  Its a wide and soft ski that will be more consistent at those slower speeds.  There's a reason those slower boat speeds and 75" exist.  He's got to learn to get wide, and that doesnt happen at 28 like it does watching pros.  

[503Kento]

His primary (if not sole) focus should be getting across the wake without fear and with speed, angle, and body position (@markn photo).  Won’t matter how wide he starts, he will loose all the width after a few balls if he can’t get across the wake properly. When he is not able to ski the course he should ditch the turns and just practice getting across the wake.  A while back, @RobHazelwood posted a video on working up to a full speed wake crossing which could be beneficial. 

[ReallyGottaSki]

Looks to me like a fundamental is missing there.

Appears he is not yet aware of the level of isometric tension one has to engage to first get into form, and the isometric tension to maintain that form during a session. 

i observe someone just kinda surfing on their ski, hanging loose, flexing and complying.  

the tension to hold form, cannot lag behind the power one intends to increase, else things go sideways fast.

i would firstly advise rolling things way back and revisiting how to stand on the ski and hold that form all around the lake from start to finish each session  so it becomes the new default state.

Then holding that form on pullout drills, followed by increasing the power applied to the rope, 

any humility applied to rethink these fundamentals, will be rewarded tenfold with a season of accomplishments and personal bests.

[scoke]

1 hour ago, 503Kento said:

His primary (if not sole) focus should be getting across the wake without fear and with speed, angle, and body position (@markn photo).  Won’t matter how wide he starts, he will loose all the width after a few balls if he can’t get across the wake properly. When he is not able to ski the course he should ditch the turns and just practice getting across the wake.  A while back, @RobHazelwood posted a video on working up to a full speed wake crossing which could be beneficial. 

Ditto.

All I see is FEARRRRRR. DON'T CRASH!

The current path is of a very long journey of being a 15 off at 34 mph skier as an accomplishment. Then one day a break through and ending the journey as a mid-pack squat and puller with an average of 4@32 off on a good day.

Why not learn and break it now?

 

 

Upgrade the ski to something like a Senate-C, practice lean drills per the Britdudes videos linked below my post. Try, learn, take some spills and recognize you're not going to die. Repeat. Get over it.

[RobHazelwood]

One super simple thing could even be to slow the boat down 2 mile an hour. He’s probably gonna complain that It feels too slow, but it will help him create rythem in the pass as everything is going to get a lot less rushed.

As it been said a few times in here, i would say the wakes are his biggest issue. Yes his position could de stronger but it’s definitely usable! In his kind of situation I like to get people to think about holding your speed through the wakes. The Slightly different wording gets people the stop worry about controlling everything and just making the goal to commit to speed through the wake. So instead of thinking pull hard through the wakes, think about speed into them and then the only goal is to hold that speed and position, we are not looking for ‘more’ through the wakes.

this video may be a little below his level but should give a sense of what I’m trying to say.

 

[mike_mapple]

Ask him where he is looking when he turns into one ball. if he says at the buoy that is the first thing to fix. 

[75Tique]

Thanks for the tips so far, guys.  Much appreciated. For those of you asking about or commenting on the ski, he is on a relatively new Radar Senate Alloy, 67.  He started out on an OBrien Sequence, which was good for a starting out ski, but as soon as he started working on turns, upgraded. I tried the Sequence once, I thought it turned terribly.  Some writeups on it say it will take you up  as far as getting into the course.  I I dont see that.  Yes, he is struggling a bit with his lean away from the boat.  I try to get him (and another guy we ski with at about the same level) to do the drill suggested, pulling away from the boat as far out   and as for long as possible, but then it doesnt translate to the wake crossing.  Those of you who see fear of crossing the wake, yeah, seems to be there a bit as the ski levels out as he approaches it, tho he is better from his on side ball than his off side.  Maybe he has recollections of this moment.

As far as the very representative photo @markn shared, I have a similar one of me that Jim has seen and appreciates what is going on in it, but again, has a hard time turning knowing into doing.   Also, @mike_mapple where should he be looking?  Don't know if this is applicable or not, but when he came back from Cobles, he told me one thing they told him, that I adopted and made a huge difference for me.  When leaving the ball and aiming across the wake (when the boat is obscuring the next ball) look at the far back corner of the boat.  I dont know if that is good advice or not, but it sure made a difference to me.

 Anyway, season is about to start and we will continue to work on it.  Any additional comments are graciously accepted.  I (and he as well) really want to see him make a big leap this summer and comfortably complete that pass.

[MitchellM]

And tell him to become an active member here.  I've learned a lot just by reading threads and listening to posted podcasts I never would have known existed.  It's a friendly crowd even for us newbies.

[mike_mapple]

if you are looking to the buoy thats where you go, with a boat pulling you down course you will never be early. he should be looking before the buoy thats an easy way to help you to ski early. 

 

[buechsr]

I just can't get on board with him on a Senate (any Senate) at his level and speed.  As butterknife no longer available, and if he wants to stick w Radar, get him on a terrain or session and slow the boat down.  He's got to learn the rhythm and width of the course and getting at best, 1 ball per pass, is not helping that.  Heck there's a video I think of Matt Rini running 38 on a butterknife (as I recall).  Learning the course, at his level, on a Senate, is just not a recipe for learning the course IMO.  The Senate, even the alloy, is a "real" ski, designed for 34 mph.  Sure it can be ridden slower, but it's hardly an "ideal" shape for someone at 28mph just learning the course.  

If you were using the sequence at "your" speed, I bet it felt terrible.  It's for a slower more forgiving ride.  I'd have him go back to that if he didn't want to add another ski, and go 24 mph.  

Bottom line, slow the boat as slow as needed to allow him to get 6, and use a ski as large is as needed to support him to do so.

[MitchellM]

He's so late and slow out of 1 ball that everything falls apart right after as he mentally tries to catch up.  Jodi had us focus on 1 ball and then just get into your rhythm while you try to get 6 ball.  Once we got this down, he added 1,5,6.  This helps to focus on technique rather than falling back on bad form trying to chase unobtainable balls.  This is all done at 25mph.

[Ski_Dad]

21 hours ago, buechsr said:

I just can't get on board with him on a Senate (any Senate) at his level and speed.  As butterknife no longer available, and if he wants to stick w Radar, get him on a terrain or session and slow the boat down.  He's got to learn the rhythm and width of the course and getting at best, 1 ball per pass, is not helping that.  Heck there's a video I think of Matt Rini running 38 on a butterknife (as I recall).  Learning the course, at his level, on a Senate, is just not a recipe for learning the course IMO.  The Senate, even the alloy, is a "real" ski, designed for 34 mph.  Sure it can be ridden slower, but it's hardly an "ideal" shape for someone at 28mph just learning the course.  

If you were using the sequence at "your" speed, I bet it felt terrible.  It's for a slower more forgiving ride.  I'd have him go back to that if he didn't want to add another ski, and go 24 mph.  

Bottom line, slow the boat as slow as needed to allow him to get 6, and use a ski as large is as needed to support him to do so.

along those lines a Radar Terrain might be the ticket for 26-28 mph learning.  They are cheap enough

[buechsr]

39 minutes ago, Ski_Dad said:

along those lines a Radar Terrain might be the ticket for 26-28 mph learning.  They are cheap enough

I suggested that.

[jpwhit]

I use a 69” Senate Alloy when teaching folks at this skill level to ski the course. It’s great at slower speeds for someone in his size / weight range. I do agree with the other comments in this thread that having him attempt the normal width balls isn’t really helping the situation. It’s forcing him to practice bad form. And practicing bad form isn’t going to get him anywhere. 

Slowing down the boat is one option, but I prefer using novice balls at a narrower width and keeping the speed a little higher. From what I see in the video, I would probably keep him at 28 with the novice balls. The novice balls on my course are easily adjustable for width. 
 

With that setup, I would then work on having him get early to the balls, and develop a good overall rhythm in the course. I’ve found that for people that have trouble getting comfortable keeping solid form and crossing the wake aggressively, that also don’t respond well to drills or verbal descriptions of form for more aggressive wake crossings, that it’s better to get them comfortable with good rhythm, early to the balls without struggling and then ease them into better wake crossings by slowly increasing the width of the novice balls. 
 

I find that once they are use to making all the novice balls, and they believe they can make them all consistently, they are more motivated to attack the wakes and develop better form crossing the wakes, as the novice balls get wider. 

[jjackkrash]

My .02 cents:  it is hard to focus on so many tips.  But he is squatting and/or on his back foot all the time and using his back foot to turn in.  We generally don’t let kids in the course until they can stand up on the ski in the right position for the gates, i.e., hips up, chest up, tall, weight on front foot and balanced.   Until a skier can at least stand in the right position behind the boats and for the gate glide it is hard to worry about anything else.  Balance, balance, balance, balance, before anything else.   Once the kids get this the rest comes a lot easier.  

[Than_Bogan]

On 3/21/2024 at 1:29 PM, jpwhit said:

I’ve found that for people that have trouble getting comfortable keeping solid form and crossing the wake aggressively, that also don’t respond well to drills or verbal descriptions of form for more aggressive wake crossings, that it’s better to get them comfortable with good rhythm, early to the balls without struggling and then ease them into better wake crossings by slowly increasing the width of the novice balls. 
 

I find that once they are use to making all the novice balls, and they believe they can make them all consistently, they are more motivated to attack the wakes and develop better form crossing the wakes, as the novice balls get wider. 

This is very interesting -- and even more surprising -- to me.  I've always thought that narrow balls are navigated by turning, whereas the fundamental challenge of the slalom course is the other phase:  Getting the leverage to build the speed to build the width.  So it's hard to see how steering back and forth can ever lead to the fundamental changes that this skier needs to make.

But that's a mechanical element, and you may be alerting me to a psychological element that I hadn't really considered.  I have previously only used narrow balls to "sell" slalom -- for example getting a kid a feeling of success so that they stick with it.

So what "symptoms" would make you send adult students toward the narrow balls?  Is it basically just "it doesn't look like you're trying at all."  Surmise that person may lack confidence and use the narrow balls to build some?

[jpwhit]

Yes, I think this it is likely more of a psychological factor. A fundamental fear of the wakes combined with certain people really having a very hard time taking verbal direction on body position and movement and turning it into execution. Seems to create a barrier sometimes that is hard for people to break through. And my observation is these are often the folks that lose interest and give up skiing the course. 

And if you've got the novice balls only 5 or 8 feet in from the normal balls, by the time you've moved them out, and you're going 28mph, you can't make it just being casual about it. Maybe it would seem casual to an experienced skier, but not someone new to the course. They still have to get the balls early enough, have a reasonable pre-turn, get a wider than the ball, and pull through the wakes more than casually.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that most of the time I do this at 22 off. But that depends a little on the boat and the exact speed and how the wakes form at that speed. A lot of people that are afraid of the wakes, have an easier time crossing sort of one larger wake at 22 off, rather than 2 distinct wakes you often get at slower speeds. Often the first wake knocks them further into a bad forward biased position, and the 2nd wake is more likely to take them down. I also feel like being at 22 off with the narrower balls, does tend to have the mechanics more like 15 off with the regular width balls. But the first thing I do is decide the speed and rope length and always start them off with something they can make. Then the only thing I change going forward is the width of the balls. 

I think part of why it works, is let face it, people like to succeed, and it makes them feel better and have more confident when they feel like they're succeeding. So, if they are making the novice balls, even if they are pretty narrow, it causes a mental shift. And it's very motivating for some people. When you start moving them wider, they are motivated to try harder to keep making them. Especially if you move them out slowly. And I think pretty soon they are attacking the wakes more aggressively because they've replaced the fear of the wakes with the motivation to keep making the balls. Maybe another way to say it, is they start improving their form through the wakes because they have to to keep making the balls. Instead of explicitly thinking about it. I tend to think explicitly thinking about it can lead to the fear of the wakes creeping back in. I do give them tips on crossing the wakes at the right time, but in the form of "if you can bring your shoulder and upper body back, you're less likely to crash going through the wakes." Frame the comments in the form of addressing the fear, not in if you do this you can attack the wakes more aggressively. Telling someone they are afraid of the wakes, and that's holding them back, is never really a good idea. 

But with that said, it really depends on the person and how they are responding to other forms of coaching. Its very much a judgement call as to if it's a good approach. But I've had good success with it from some people. But if you don't see it creating motivation by making the narrower balls, then it's not likely the right approach. 

I've had other people that can take verbal direction and turn it into execution very readily. My daughters were like that, and it's really great to coach them. I attribute it to the many years of dance lessons and competition they participated in growing up. They learned the skill of taking verbal direction and turning into the execution of body position and movements. So, I never used this approach with them. They started out doing the full course at slower speeds on a larger ski at a pretty young age. But it's also very satisfying IMO, to help people who are having a harder time, break through the barriers that are holding them back if it's not as naturally easy for them..  

[Taynton]

Ill throw in one more, in my many many years of coaching wakesurfing (Skydiving, snowboarding, hockey etc) the biggest and most effective tool in my toolbox has always been DRYLAND TRAINING. get him to practice his body position and stance on the dock, the more time you spend there the better the result. Some people have a very hard time concentrating on tasks and tips while in/on the water, if he can practice on land you eliminate all the other factors that generally distract you from completing tasks. This is massively important in skydiving as you generally only get about 50 seconds per jump to work on skills or complete tasks (and flying thru the air at 100mph is so fun you forget your first name). Work on muscle memory, getting into the right positions, where your weight should be and what you need to think about next. repetition repetition repetition!!! i would suggest practicing his stack and mental progression in the boat each time before he gets in the water. This generally helps my most difficult clients the most. Good luck! 

[morfoot]

Larry, since Jim has been to Coble ski school then he should remember some of the tips that she teaches at her ski school. Anyone that wants to ski the course on our lake but has never done so. I refer them to this video. April does a FANTASTIC job in explaining basic technic, and even "changing" your course into a mini course. I love how she explains that the buoy is NOT where you start your turn but where you COMPLETE your turn. The simple wipe explanation and demonstration of where to ski is very helpful and may help Jim drastically along with ALL the previous posts from more experienced Ballers here. As with most anything, skiing with those who are better than you is a valuable asset and will truly help improve your own skiing. 

April explains the goal and skiing the "Mini course" at about 30:00......