ScarletArrow

I would slow the boat down... a lot. 21mph is pretty quick for a 7yo just learning the course. The minimum speed increment is 15.5. You can even go below that. There is a suggestion somewhere by @Bruce_Butterfield that having a child go 10mph on 2 skis helps build confidence and reduces their fear when they inevitably take a fall. I'm doing this right now with my 6yo, he just started running the course at 10.0, 10.5, 11.0 and 11.5mph. @GK has his son doing the same thing right now but on a trick ski. There are different schools of thought on LL vs. 15. I'll just add my .02 that I think LL is the way to go until they can at least run the course through 21mph. I think the wake is less intimidating thereby allowing them to work on their body position behind the boat. IMHO the "bungee effect" is a non-factor with the thin rope. Currently, my 10yo runs LL into 30mph (though we will drop it right after Nationals). I agree with @Luzz, get the thin rope. Makes a huge difference. Good luck!

@WBLskier sounds like we're in the same situation. Regarding Regionals, I have no intel - other than I found it difficult to get a practice set in on a 2 lake setup (e.g. Wilmington). Regarding Nationals, I send an email to Deb Stiller and this is what I received in return. We have a designated practice lake that will be going all day, every day with slalom and tricks. Then on both tournament lakes, we will have practice at the end of the tournament each day and will go until dark, which is close to 9 pm. We will have jump practice on the west lake each evening (or as soon as that lake is finished for the day). I'm not sure where the practice lake is in relation to the tournament site. I plan on getting there mid-afternoon Wednesday.

@greg @lottawatta i'm not sure if "he" is me, but i took a situation and intentionally made it very generic so I could ask a legitimate question on something that was covered in the rules in a clinic. i was trying to be respectful by intentionally leaving out specific details, even changing the identity of the skier. the specific details (and an explanation of the call made) were added later. i don't see how this is an "unfortunate re-hash" of something i wasn't involved or concerned with (other than the safety of the skier). i spoke directly with the CJ later in the day to understand the ruling (and no reride was offered as @lottawatta confirmed in a previous post), and i didn't understand the explanation at the time. on what basis are you going to ask questions about rule interpretations other than by situations you have encountered? i'm not sure where i'm reluctant to be a boat judge... i've been one at almost every tournament i've attend since.

Maybe this is a regional thing... everyone around here uses LL. My son (B1) is now getting into 30 regularly and has run it a couple of times at LL. I plan on him dropping the LL after Regionals & Nationals and then go 15off exclusively. I took the same approach with my daughter (G2) and it worked great. I backed the speed down one increment, but she quickly got back to her max speed at the new line length. If a B/G1 - 3 is just starting out, especially at the slow speeds, I think LL is a good training tool. The wake is already big enough at 15, 17, 19mph... why make it harder by shortening the rope?

@lottawatta i didn't bring it up at the judges clinic - re: the webinar format is not suited for group discussion and one of the judges involved was present and i didn't want to put them in bad spot. In a totally separate incident at a different lake, my son (B1 - not the same skier in the above scenario), in his first year of skiing tournaments, and his first time skiing at this particular lake - after rounding an island, pulled out for the gates and saw a buoy in an odd place along the shoreline (marking what I assume to be a low spot). This totally confused him and caused him to miss his gates on his second pass. He was devastated and came out of the water crying because he felt the situation was "unfair" (I think he was 8 at the time). No re-ride requested or given. I knew the buoy was there, but it never affected me at 15off, but at LL he could pull wide enough to go around the buoy near the shoreline. He has since skied there again and knows how to do deal with "unexpected" buoys.

@lottawatta it is what you are thinking. you had the best view (obviously). we went over this section last night in the judges clinic and i was curious as to how (or if) it applied. i had forgotten about the previous days tournament.

It happened a few years ago... I believe that part of the shoreline has been fixed. It didn't affect me, but I always found the ruling curious. The skiers fin was bent, so there was no way they were getting back on the water anyway (no replacement).

Was the skier too close to shore? Probably. Since they were a B1 skier they really didn't have the self-awareness to understand what might happen. Should the shoreline have been marked? Probably. But I can tell you this skiers pull-out is/was significantly wider(higher) than the average skier and so they probably exceeded any beta-testing parameters done by the lake owner.

@wtrskior in this situation (which happened a few years back) the CJ said "no re-ride"

@wish I have a wide foot, so I have to put my foot in the RTP while in the water... I could never slip it in after starting.

A skier is attempting their second pass at LL and below their max speed. Skier comes around turn island and pulls out for gates. Skier's normal pull-out at the green's is very wide, and during their glide ends up striking some submerged rip-rock from the shoreline and flips over the front before even making a move toward the gates. Needless to say, a scary moment. What is the correct call from an officials standpoint?

Here is a video of the Saturday's Buckeye Buoy Tour - Run the Gamut at John Gorski's lake - Barking Shores - near Bowling Green, Ohio. In this format, skiers are divided up into teams (we had 4 teams of 5) of various abilities. There are two regular rounds of skiing for seeding in the finals. In the finals, each team had to run a 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34mph pass (at any line length), and then in succession run a 22, 28 and 32off pass (at any speed). Each team was timed by a person in the boat (rules were established for fairness and safety) and the fasted time won. @GK put this together and it's one of the more popular formats because of the team based approach and uniqueness of the finals format.

@LeonL yeah... I think the scenario in your edited response is solid.

@LeonL I know it's clear. I'm just asking the question if it should be included. The CJ made the correct call in 60 seconds. I think the group just felt bad for the skier... no one likes to see someone miss their opener.

I think the general thought was that since the skier did missed the gate to the right instead of the to the left they were being penalized for something they shouldn't. This isn't meant to rehash the whole "should entry / exit gates be judged" question... just could we tweak this rule (to add exit gates) in a class C tournament for a persons opening pass? This person is a 32mph skier, they were at an unfamiliar site and had a few jitters... I think the general thought is that the skier clearly demonstrated an ability to run the pass (and ran a full pass following), so why not let them continue?

10.03 A Miss C. In a Class C or below tournament a skier who misses their entry gate on their first pass, but goes on to complete the remainder of the pass, may continue to the next pass or accept a score of zero. If the skier completes the next sequential pass (or opt-up pass), then he shall receive credit for both passes and be allowed to continue. However, if the second pass is not fully complete, then the score shall be zero. We had a situation in a tournament where a skier turned for 7 ball on their opening pass. They realized their mistake and tried to get back to the exit gates unsuccessfully. We allowed the skier to ski the next pass while we deliberated if the rule applied only to entry gates or to both gates. The consensus was that we applied rule correctly (the skier was scored with 6NC), but many felt that it should be applied to both gates. Thoughts?

@Horton Uhh... ok. Not sure why you took this post as a dig against BOS. I love this place and I think you do a great job. Is it what you've done "good enough"... yeah, it's perfect. I just thought with Todd being a BD skier, a Goode skier, participant in the prelims, friend to every skier out there, and Editor of the only print media available for skiing, and shared sponsorships that he would be in a tough position to be a reporter. This is NOT... "Geez that article by John is really lacking, I hope Todd does something better." I'm a nobody in the waterski world John, don't let a silly poll by me cause you to lose sleep. Feel free to delete if it offends.

@Horton agree gates are black and white (even if Gordon disagrees B) ) The right thing is not always the easy thing, and while we all want to do what is honorable, for me it would be a long, slow walk to that scorer's table to tell them to give my child a zero when she thought she had made it. It would be a tough lesson, but as @TylerR pointed out, it would be a lasting lesson. For the record, my scenario is completely fictional.

Is controversy good for the business of waterskiing?

I overheard a conversation one time between a parent and child at a tournament. They were discussing how you can't mess up your deepwater start at a Regional or National tournament. The parent said to the child (paraphrase), "If you miss your deepwater start, just tell them you thought your ski hit something... a stick or rock... so you let go. Yeah, it's a little fib, but at least you get to keep skiing."

@rico I understand my child wouldn't know if they missed the gates... But I did, so to be consistent, shouldn't I as the parent step in and say, "No, that's not the correct score." ? Obviously not just any spectator would do that, but I'm the parent, is this a teaching moment for sportsmanship? What if my friends, who were judging, told me afterwards (as I mentioned in my other post) that they intentionally looked the other way because a) they knew what was at stake, b) my child ran the pass and c) they ran next one?

@RazorRoss3‌ Good points. I guess my point is that on the internet, not only can everyone can run 38off, everyone would always make ethical and moral choice. I'm just pointing out that when there is something significant at stake, our "moral compass" gets tested. The problem with the poll is that it's a bit sterile and simplistic - it's basically asking, "do you think skiers should be honest and a good sport?" Well who wouldn't say yes to that on a message board? In my fictional scenario above it's very plausible in a local Class C tournament, where everyone knows everyone else, and friends are judging other friends (and their kids), to "look the other way" in that kind of instance. Do I really want to be the one to pull the gates on my ski buddy's daughter on her qualifying run for Nationals? I might argue that it's an "unwritten rule" to not pull someone gates if they run the pass and use the same logic that Dave Miller did in his Big Dawg post about the unwritten rule about not asking for a reride - i.e. it creates too much tension between friends. I guess you could call it a un written rule we would not ask for a reride due to lights because it would cause a lot of tension between us as friends....

Your son/daughter needs to run a certain score at a tournament to qualify for Nationals, and this is their last opportunity. On their second pass you watch in horror as they just miss the gates as they run all 6. There is no doubt they missed, you were in the perfect spot to see it. However, the judges give them a completed pass, and then 3 passes later they get their qualifying score for Nationals. Would you tell the officials and your child the real score, or let it go?

This is a good question. 1 - In what sport does an athlete NOT try and influence a judges decision? 2 - At the end of the day you have to live with the integrity of your score. 3 - My attitude is to just focus on your skiing and not get distracted by thinking about whether or not you made your gate or buoy. Keep skiing. Judges can be wrong, you can be wrong. Some calls will go your way and others will not. On my PB run last week I KNOW that I had 2 buoys (bailed on the handle at the 2nd wake). Several members on shore agreed with me. Judges gave me 1.5. I was ticked in the immediate moment after, but 10 minutes later - who cares? I just ran a PB. It's a Class C tournament.