Deep11

Thanks Than - will have silly grin on my face for few days I think.

This time last year 1@12m today 2@11.25m! - didn't for a moment think I would get this far this year, so well chuffed. Wife and kids going through the motions of trying to be pleased!

Hi @fatroll , I use both and they both work really well - as mentioned before the vice are a slimmer fit, but don't go larger than your usual size as the strap length is critical. One thing you need to watch for is not to buy last years gloves - both companies made some batches with the straps about 3cm too long (with them on you could almost straighten your hand fully - fingers should be more like 70-80deg to the vertical). Randy at master line admitted the problem in an email to me and offered to sort but despite a number of emails nothing came of it. Last week I was in a shop trying on a new batch of "vice" - compared them with last years (still on sale) and no comparison - 3cm difference. Shop owner said " yes radar knew there was a problem and have sorted it for this year" I can understand why the shops still have them for sale - but don't really understand why the companies didnt withdraw them - they are expensive gloves after all. My pairs from last year had to be cut and restitched to work properly.

Ah ha - if in doubt read the instructions (or in this case FAQ). Seems a bit like asking a passer-by directions - would rather get lost!

Hmmm weird - @than_bogan knows this stuff yet seems accepting of contrary ideas. I agree to some extent with Than the biceps aren't the muscles doing the work at the point off the second wake (photo if it embeds). Yes the trailing arm is bent but that's a reflection of trying to keep the elbow on the hip which is achieved by bracing the lats and the triceps. Getting pulled up causes the arm bend. So perhaps building the triceps is a good idea? Failed! - How do you embed an image ? :(

Reading the upgraded version of this on "advanced topics", thanks @shaneH the thread you pointed us at reassures me that i am working on the right thing. i am going to keep working on trailing arm pressure this season - on hook up, through the wakes, in transition and right up until i release to turn. Thanks again. http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6769/anyone-understand-what-smith-is-doing-in-this-image/p1

Oh no - just when you have a little bit of confidence about one thing someone comes along with a contrary view! Isnt it Always the way with this sport :) @horton I'm pretty sure that @sethski has been advocating trailing arm (left arm going to one) pressure. It could of course be that I am misunderstanding (again!). I know that Rossi has advised balanced pressure between both arms - which when stacked with straight arms actually seems the most logical to actually achieve. His gopro video on the front of the ski recently shows his stacked position, handle control and consequential "reverse C" really well. Doesnt Right arm pressure (going to one again) run the risk of getting "lean locked". Keeping tension on the line out to the bouy line by loading the right arm makes sense and would take me back to what I was working on a couple of years ago. I'm not too fussed about learning to reverse C - but when videoing my passes I think that's its a really good way of helping to assess if I am getting handle control/stacked/balanced correctly. Incidentally - sticking the gopro on the front of the ski teaches humility about how stacked you are and how close the handle really is when "working". As an obsessional type A personality I find this really interesting and would welcome a consensus on this concept. (Realise that definitive advice is unlikely - but like everyone here I really want to use my time in the water as productively as possible.)

Thanks @AB just the kind of ideas I am looking for. Your word of caution made me laugh - have ready considered ( and experienced) tweaking it too much!

I like the idea of keeping your upper body leaned away (handle under control) and yet initiating independent movement of your lower half - both to advance the ski forwards and to let it find the turning edge. I would be really interested in knowing what those who ski deep shorter lines use as a mental aid to making this happen? eg Horton was talking about doing something with his chin, Seth focuses on trailing (left going to 1) pressure, AB mentioned making sure you shorten the work zone. Are there other ideas out there? Softening the knees after the midline? Trying to raise the inside hip just after you come off max load? ????

Great view - re: what @dave_n has said, if you got to Chris rossi's Facebook page he has recently uploaded a video from the same angle - not sure how to share it here but if someone can do it, it's definitely worthwhile. His "stack" is so good - just when you think he is in position, his hips come up to almost touch the handle and stay there until he releases. Really good view of the reverse "c" as well.

First the disclaimer - I'm no coach and never will be, but like everyone else here i am an avid student of the sport, as I learn I'm spending an increasing amount of time in the boat with opportunity to offer advice. I want to make sure that I'm helping not hindering. As Horton had said recently everything is in the "stack" - get this right and you can start working on other things. Than's article on actually getting into the position and recognising it is essential reading. There is one other aspect which comes into play and is talked about in different ways that I wonder may also make a difference in the learning curve? This is your "choice" on acceleration. Among the many coaches I have listen to there is one (Dimitri from Porto Heli in Greece) who has two phrases with regards to the wake crossing: 1. "No win no lose" - hook up early and hold onto what you have, progressive loading until pulled up into the turn. Skiing like this, it feels that you are working all the time and the past feels fast, there is little room for error but less impact on the body. Bouy to bouy skiing. 2. "Touch and go" - late as possible hook up with all the work between the wakes driving the ski through. This is the wide and early approach trying to achieve as much space before the bouy as possible. The pass feels slow as there is time before the bouy, yet the acceleration is short and sharp ( and more fun - which may be what it's all about). With the above terms it may become easer to categorise a lot of what is being discussed on other threads and also to see what other skiers are doing. The techniques for one way do not always apply to another, for example in "touch and go" there's no real point discussing edge change or counter rotation because it happens automatically. If I look at pros I see skiers like Andy, Seth, Nate, MB in the "touch and go" category, with Drew, CP, Regina in the "no win no lose"(you may disagree and I realise there will be variations and exceptions - there are to every rule!) The point of my thread is that when coaching should a skier be deciding what type of wake crossing they want to achieve to help us coach them. Further more, and this is the bit thats got me interested at the moment, it seems to me that learning "touch and go" is pretty much impossible until you have "no win no lose" mastered. "Touch and go" as we know requires totally owning your stack, with great handle control and being totally committed to giving it everything for a split second when the rope tightens and at the exact same moment driving the ski through into the first wake. try this with your arms slightly bent or not stacked properly and at best you end up in "no win no lose" tug of war, too fast into the bouy or your pass is over. In which case if teaching beginners and long liners we can avoid things that don't apply such as "attacking the wake" "delaying the pull", and "speed is good" In "no win no lose" too much speed will have you too fast into the bouy, falling to the tail, big hits etc. As beginners ski " no win no lose" anyway it may be helpful to explain that to them and help them get that right before they move on to driving the ski through. (Less OTF'sas well) Anyway, like I said, just some random thoughts that might be interesting to put out there when there is not too much technique discussion going on. Here hoping I don't get the Panda!

Today! Snow and ice everywhere Air 0 deg C Water 0.8 deg C Managed an OTF in a wetsuit - serious head freeze - felt like it was going to explode. See - "full winter mode" thread for video.

Today definitely the coldest and not just because of the OTF. Air = zero deg C Water = 0.8 deg C Wetsuit! Video diary......

Yup all good, thanks!

Hmm tried the "cookies always on" before with no result - now working (obviously) - no idea why, but thanks if someone has changed something.

This is a great site and extremely well managed, which leads me to assume that I'm more of a technical Luddite than I had previously thought. I am posting this from my iPhone because I cannot log in from my iPad. I read the previous threads on this but nothing worked - hence lurking in the shadows fr a long time. Thought I found the answer by registering as a new user (was live2ski) - was signed in for a couple of days! Now situation normal - perhaps Horton doesn't want me on here? Anyone any ideas that might actually work. Signs in on other sites do what they say, so I don't think it's the iPad ???

Totally agree ( hope it doesn't look like I don't !) I think for me its also been important to be able to "feel" when I am getting it wrong and applying load in the wrong place esp. when drift to the back of the ski and act like an anchor! Now rather than fighting a lost cause I give it up and have another go.

@Razorskier1 - well written! Courtesy of the discussions on the site, this is pretty much what I have been working on for the last 6/12 and while I am only midway down 12 at the moment it makes 1 bouy so much more predictable. "Blocking" doesn't really work for me as I find that I tend to edge change too late. "Turn and burn" clearly doesnt work as, as everyone knows, load too early and arms out off the wake (how do Andy and Jeff R do it? - do they actually do it???) Again I realise that we are actually trying to achieve he same ultimate effect, but for me I am aiming at maximum load at the second wake which forces a controlled edge change. I know "blocking" has the same effect of increasing tension to the midline, but it's funny how the mental picture affects what you do !? It s the same as your comment on "changing direction of the ski without loading it" for me this works as getting the edge engaged before moving my COM where I want to go. Interesting stuff.

Rossi's article on gates is difficult to surpass. The pull out is the one area in the course when you really can accelerate with minimal load, just by falling away on a balanced ski with the handle connected. Troublesome issue I had was occasionally 'tripping' over the ski (falling in the pull out not cool!) sorted by making sure that engaging the edge of the ski is the first thing to happen before falling away (or whatever you want to do). Ie stand tall, handle engaged, balanced on ski, then rotate outside hip slightly to engage left hand edge of ski.

@Razorskier1 - thanks! could simplify things further - will try.

Great thread! @Gloersen, @Rich,@Razorskier1 etc seems everyone agrees that if you keep stacked with the load off, until the white water, the real challenge is back to "handle control" as you change edge in order to keep you and the ski heading outbound. Achieving this "reverse C" position , and being able to actually feel it, has been my goal for the last 2 seasons. This has to be the most challenging aspect of our crazy sport. I'm now conceptualising a combination of what I was told by: 1. Seth - going to 1 bouy : drive the ski through the wakes using left hand/arm on to the turning edge, keep shoulders away. 2. As mentioned by Rich above: once changed edge try and keep shoulders away & get more pressure on the right arm - to help keep the handle in, keep speed, get up on the ski etc When it works = so easy and early - just need to get everything right before the white water to allow it happen!