Deep11

Looks like I have a wee windfall coming my way and thinking of changing my ski - I'm currently on a big S2. I'm about 200lb skiing 34mph and aiming to take down 38. This years mantra is "more power" - I'm working on wide and early and as much water speed as I can get, no more " light in the line" no siree, every connection from here on in is givin it all I've got. I really like the look of both these skis (in 68 models) anyone any rational idea of which may be an improvement on the S2.(right now I'm being drawn to green but only because I've had a black ski before! - there has to be a better argument) If you reckon I have the best stick already then happy to hear that too; I'll buy a new kite or bike :) Thanks for any comments!

Hi @dtm8119 takes some effort to get the video and put it out there for critique so well done. My view on free skiing ( when you're ultimately aiming at the course) is to use it to develop your "locked and loaded" position and wake crossing. Done right you should still be leaning away powerfully off the second wake. In your vid you are standing up before the first wake. Looks like you're enjoying the turns rather than focusing on the power move. ( get the power and acceleration right and the turns are even more fun).

@matthewbrown - thanks! A momentary piece of clarity!

Been struggling for internet connection (somewhere in the English Channel ) and actually posted last post before @matthewbrown response. Think we're discussing the same thing in that "ski momentarily behind "happens when you raise arm towards the pylon and lean in on front foot for the turn in, to let ski come under the line before the load picks you up - I think ? :)

Really like @Razorskier1 explanation of why taking load from wide works, hadn't thought of that before. Simplicity of @horton is great - more speed = less to generate. Reason I started this thread is that I see some skiers with us having great width (and by definition speed) yet they are narrow at one, and it's not due to lack of commitment or giving it up at the wakes. What I'm thinking is that once wide the essence of the turn in is about "speed and direction". That is; to turn in with speed so that the ski comes under the line as soon as possible and only then do you pick up the load - this being your stacked position when you are in control. This is where having the handle in on your hip is good (or doing a one handed gate). When you turn in you ease the handle towards the pylon which prevents the load coming on until the ski is under you (because you are wide and fast, this happens quickly and you pick up more speed from wide). Obviously this only applies if you turn in the front foot, otherwise you decelerate and either take a hit or pick up the load before the ski gets under the line. Thinking about it, is this where loading late also applies? - if you have enough speed to get wide and turn in to the correct direction with the ski under the line then a later load is not bad - must mean that you just have more speed? Would in turn suggest that there is no maximum speed at turn in only minimum ? Gives us a working range of speed?

"Keeping the line tight on pull out" thread looks like there may be a consensus on this - Tight line and wide as, with handle on right hip before turn in. So... What are the thoughts on the next bit - the "turn in?" I had been working on the "slow and late load" but having had the opportunity to chat to Andy and Will it seems they approach it with "fast and load early". Rather than just thinking of the various ways of doing this (which just from the above is goIng to get confusing really quickly) I'm wondering if seeing what you guys think we are actually trying to achieve will create more of a consensus for us all to work towards? I'm also aware that the same coach may give the opposite advice to different skiers depending on their level and the changes they want to make, so saying "how you do it" may actually be counterproductive unless the guy reading it just happens to ski the same way you do. Kevin (Just love the tech talk!)

Good stuff Horton - Watched / listened to it all, MP3 download as alternative would be great for morning commute. Glad I made it to the end - got to hear Marcus' views on CP style and then the fact that he knocked his own style (which I am sure guys out there are still trying to emulate)!

It was Rossi for me, best one handed gate out there which took ages to try and get even close. Fortunately he changed to two handed but kept the speed and dynamics of a one handed AND he did us all the favour of explaining what he was doing - pull out, turn in, focus etc - silly not to give it a go :) First set I changed ran 35 fòr the first time - probably coincidence but having more control of speed development, and as a result edge change and direction off second wake, had to be a factor too.

Found it! Don't think this has been posted for a while. Really worth watching to see the dynamics of the "swing pump" "hips open" "trailing arm pressure" strategy :) http://youtu.be/8sU4lnWolGI

There is an excellent wakeye video of TW showing a full set at full speed(which is great to balance with the one at the start of this thread) It seems to have been taken off their web site but someone here might have it?

@alex38 I'd recommend being a little careful when trying out the radar vice without the dowel. It did in the summer after reading about it here (I think @6balls has mentioned this before) and the photo below showed what happened - front hand slipped off on the way to 6 @35 off. Put me out of action for 4/52 (tore something rather than a break). I've since put dowels back in (smaller though as the orange ones were too big) and confidence has returned. You need to find the balance between handle diameter and glove size. (Much easier if the manufacturers actually maintained strap length and dowel size the same each year!)

I see a lot of the guys who talk about counter rotating making it an upper body movement, when really it's a hip / knee / ankle tension thing - starting at the shoulders makes no sense. If you're flexible not much happens anyway. I'm with @Ed_Johnson the real reason folk think about counter rotating is so as not to rotate. Rotating into the turn kills it every time.

Hi @horton, the scientist in me is finding this thread really interesting. A bit of "null hypothesis" - you create a theory and then test it by trying to disprove it. Far more meaningful than trying to prove it which generally brings in lots of bias. It's great that @sethski has contributed, as I have posted in another thread it is Seth that I have been emailing videos to over the last 2 years. As with all teaching / coaching the students do not necessarily interpret the information to the same end. This thread is interesting as rather than just spouting by rote what we have discussed, I have been explaining my interpretation based not only on our discussions but my experiences and findings (working on myself and other skiers - Cam) The basis of the hips to shore for me is: 1. IF you have a tight line off the second wake AND MAINTAIN a tight line you will head out to width - you have no choice. 2. If you maintain the tight line - How far up on the boat you get depends on - how fast you are going and how much drag or resistance you impart. 3. It is of course more complicated as the boat is moving down course so tension in the line helps to maintain your outward speed. So... For me this translates into: 1. achieving my perfect stacked position ("indestructible" at the wake) and then 2. allowing that stored energy to chuck me out to width, connected, with a tight line. This is the key for me, I can't create the same speed as Nate so being able to maintain the tight line is about the handle to hip connection which in turn is about decreasing the resistance so I can stay leaned away and let the ski move under me and still get to width. Like everything it's a balancing act. Personally whilst I seem to be able to ski 13m any number of ways, it is the "feel" of the pass (or even a couple of bouys) which make it feel good for me. The easy pass is the one where I connect at the white water, trailing arm pressure, hips to shore off the second wake, stay connected and balanced throughout. This is the way I want to ski, just making the pass doesn't cut it any more. Much easier on the body also. A last point is that the idea "hips to boat" is what works for me. I always hate it when people say that but In the thread which spawned this thread it was asked what have you learned? I am knocking 50, 6'4, 210lbs yet still fairly flexible (P90x yoga). After a year of free skiing I found that my perfect stacked position is hips open to the boat - shoulders and hips in line. So "hips to the boat" off the second wake means maintaining what I've got ( not giving up or taking more). As Seth would confirm my problem early in the season was trying to turn my hips away off the second wake and disconnecting. For a skier who's best stacked position is more closed the mental mantra may well be "hips to the shore", but it's not going to work for me. Trailing arm pressure however will probably work for everyone. Kevin

@horton - apologies for the delay in getting this thread running, just come back to it now. For me hips open is something I've been working on for the past few months and it has helped me get consistent at 13, through 12 and into 11m. It's not so much a concept/theory but a how to do it approach which addresses : "Maintaining handle connection", "light on the line", "reverse C", "trailing arm pressure - (left arm going to one)", "quick edge change" "riding the handle to width" For all sorts of reasons all the above are almost impossible (for me anyway) to do, predictably, when trying to point the ski and hips to the shore. "Back arm pressure - (right going to one)" and "hips to the shore" , "countering off the second wake" etc are ideas I have struggled with to some good effect but it has never looked or felt easy. Moreover when comparing my gate shots to Rossi (one or two handed) or Brooks Wilson (photos below) there is no fluidity. "Back arm pressure" and "hips to the shore" after the midline means that you are fighting the pull of the boat to try and achieve the width - unless you are super strong, or timing is just right, the handle always separates from the hip resulting in an unbalanced (usually on the tail) position on the ski and loss of the direction you are actually aiming for. (This is always perfectly exampled when trying a new line length and going harder = get pulled up and go fast and narrow at one.) "Hips open to the boat" means for me engaging the best stacked position at about the first white water in order to store energy in the ski which is then allowed to release as you come up, using the trailing arm connection, to cast the ski out on to its inner edge. Keeping the hips open, critically, allows you to maintain the connection with the boat which in turn pulls you to width and allows you to keep balanced in the middle of the ski, all on a sustainable angle. Notes: 1. The work zone is narrowed - white water to second wake. 2. This does not mean giving anything away to the boat, or taking a narrow line, you are still leaned away during the edge change, in fact you can actually load harder with the reduced work zone as you are not fighting to stay down. 3. Speed has to be maintained through the turn - taking a "hit" changes everything. 4. The only time you can really practice this is the gate or free skiing. 5. You do "counter" only a little later once you release 6. So much easier on the body I realise that this is a diametric opposite to what many many skiers are working on, but this is a friendly forum so hopefully meaningful discussion follows ?- please don't flame me outright! Lots of you guys are much more experienced "thinkers" at this game than me and will no doubt be able to put this into better words, or rationalise why I'm wrong? Anyway I've done my best to explain this - taken ages! Think I prefer to be a lurker. Kevin The photos are of Brooks: 1. Late load in the white water 2. ski releases off the second wake 3. Hips open whilst connected 4. Countered in to the turn

Trailing arm pressure = less drag and more speed Opening hips to the boat off the second wake = able to maintain handle connection

Amazing !

Hi @Ilivetoski great thread! I only really got consistent at 13 (32) this year. What makes the pass for me is having tension in the line at the apex so you can choose when and how to rotate into your stack - which I think is what you are getting at. Achieving tension is not so much "slowing" after the transition but being in the right place at the right time. I initially thought I needed to slow the ski and couldn't understand the "speed is your friend" thing. I went through all the things that you have mentioned - physically concentrating on slowing the ski before the turn (also tried tweaking the ski with fin and boot positions ) Occasionally it worked but very inconsistent, what I found (and it's clearly no surprise to all the guys contributing to this thread) is that too fast at the bouy for me was because after the edge change (and I'm assuming a good stack and transition ) I was not correctly balanced on the ski. Video (I video every set ) showed that on my approach I was too much towards the back of the ski (water breaking in middle of front foot on offside). The solution eventually was to make sure I used the handle off the second wake to get properly balanced before releasing - you effectively do come forward (wrong word, I know, as forward = unbalanced) but much earlier than you are probably doing at present. We all know that everything is linked and you can't do this if the handle is away from your body, so step one is to look at what's happening off the second wake, arms out = back to the drawing board on the stack before worrying about the approach to the turn. Also need to be wide and fast (which isn't a contradiction) to keep it flowing. One of the best Pros I watch for this is Terry Winter - you can see him use his arms off the second wake to regain the balanced position - for him this almost "buries" the front of the ski from the white water to the bouy. Hope this helps.

Thanks guys, really appreciate the comments - the focus of the training has really been the "feel" of the pass and tweaking the small things (in me , not the ski) in order to put together some consistency without pain. Lots of free skiing to really work on the stack and being in control of the acceleration and not worrying about not making passes. There is still so much to do but at least now I can feel when it's right or wrong. Oh yes and video everything. @Texas6 - this is the link to @sethski video coaching web page : http://www.sethstisher.com/video-coaching/ I actually can't remember how much he charged me as I paid a package rate for the year. I send him videos and my personal appraisal and he will either send a video appraisal back or email or both., we then communicate to ensure the informations is understood. I can absolutely recommend it - he is always able to point out the things that make the biggest difference and is very patient when I just don't get it! He will explain things in different ways, if necessary, until we can see the required change on the videos. @MrJones - there are still guys here wearing shorties, I'm a bit of big girls blouse when it comes to the cold! - don't mind the cold, just don't like to feel it! (Muscles need to be warm to work efficiently and not tear - that's my line anyway) Aim to ski thro the winter as long as the ice doesn't get too thick.

Ran my first 12m (35off) at the beginning of the season and was well chuffed - spent all summer swimming mid 12m. Yesterday ran 2 x 12 in different sets AND have them on video. Much appreciation and thanks go to @sethski for his distance video coaching. Started sending him video about 2 years ago when I could run 16 most times, 14 occasionally and 13 once in my life. Suggested at that time that my goal was to get through 12m : he said he thought it was possible (looking at those early vids - he was stretching his neck out a bit and probably being polite) I have obsessionally followed his advice (trailing arm convert) and here it is. Haven't asked him if he reckons 11m is possible! - reckon there is a lot more work at 13m through the winter yet before I start bouy chasing. If you do watch this - please accept my apologies in advance for the gratuitous "fist" throwing - I was pretty pleased at the time but it looks a bit lame on the video. Is there an accepted sign of slalom ecstasy? - perhaps just a bow of the head a for job well done? Kevin

Really easy to use and switch between boats but durability issues : the top bit snapped off within a month, chucking the camera (playsport) into the back of the boat. The front mount not strong enough on its own to hold a camera - again lots of playing "catch the camera" when the skier takes a hit. Gone back to the trakker.

That top video of Matt is amazing, exactly what I am looking at - just need to know what he's thinking! the TF articles are really good - I hadn't see them before. To be clear it's not the usual discussion on countering that I am getting at, it's (for want of a another way of explaining it) the maintenance of the counter AFTER you collect the handle, in order to reduce the hit. I was concerned that it might be one of these things that is a result of something else, which from what Horton says may well be the case. To answer what vids i was looking at These photos show a really sharp turn (line loose), but no standing on the back of the ski or "hit" because of the maintenance of position. Doesn't happen on the offside. If you dropped the inside hip after collecting the handle i reckon you would achieve a whole lot more angle but it would be uncontrollable - which is what happens to me all too often. Just interested because I want to do this :) (and of course i enjoy thinking this stuff through).

I've been wanting to do this for a while. I switched to the S2 about 7/12 ago. I now have my PB on it and am fairly consistent (90% 14m and 60% 13m), so thought I would hop back on the strada to see how it felt: Both skis are factory settings - fin and boots, both sets of boots are Strada double boots. Did a couple of free passes to get balanced then set off into the course trying to ski exactly as normal to see what happened. .Main differences: On the pull out I like to engage the edge slowly then rotate and accelerate - the strada wouldn't let me engage slowly. As soon as I engaged the edge the same as normal it was off. Same at the turn in - I am trying to develop a progressive late load at the gate, using same markers and glide when I move COM toward the gate the strada turned engaged the edge and was off - result = way too early through the gate. (Fixed by going slightly later and putting less weight on the edge to turn in.) In the course wake to wake and turns were pretty much the same but the end of the turn was seriously punished if I lost connection or dropped the inside hip. ( fixed by really concentrating on staying balanced through the turn and not letting hip lose connection on exit of the turn) In effect then the Strada seemed to need less input to make things happen (fast) but was a little less forgiving than the S2, which sits well with my initial views of the S2 - on the first set i ran on it II remember commenting that it was more forgiving at the end of the turns. This was only one set and ran a couple of 14m and 4@13 a couple of times - reckon that after a few sets I would be back and balanced in it, both skis get it done, but that's not really the point of a direct comparison. Hope this is helpful to someone.

Thanks @skijay, I'd love to go see Drew but living in not so sunny Scotland limits coaching by the pros. For the last couple of years I've been doing video coaching with Seth which I can heartily recommend. Lately we've been looking at delaying the load at the gate by raising the inside hip and it was this that has had me looking at what the pros do and the observation that as the line gets shorter the load Is delayed further throughout the course. Drews BOS vid is a perfect example. In all cases the inside hip is kept raised delaying the finish of the turn - especially after a hard one. .ie the wider and earlier you want to get the later you need to load. I was hoping to get the views of the guys here as I'm sure others must have worked on this. @MS I stand by my listing of @Horton, as he really does consistently do what I am taking about ( watch the BOS vids) &, as I doubt any of the pros will chip in to this, I sort of hoped that Horton would. The lack of responses suggests that either no one here has worked on this, it's not that relevant or everyone's on the water! Can't believe there aren't more ski geeks like me interested in putting some thought to this.

One of the areas I am currently trying to figure out is the ideal "apex to wake " move. i realise that most problems you see generally have their fault a while earlier, so for this particular problem I am assuming that we get wide and early with plenty of speed and are balanced more or less on the right place on the ski. What I see happening is that from the apex as we rotate about the handle and collect it many things can go amiss that change the balance point and allow the inside hip to drop back - which in turn causes the inside edge to engage more, weight to drop back, separation, tip rise and drag = early loading of the line, tug of war and coming up narrow to the next bouy / repeat. What it seems that many of the pros do (the west coasters being the most obvious) is to somehow not only prevent their inside hip dropping back but actually take a much reduced angle into the wakes (leading with the inside hip the whole way - looks like the body is leading the ski initially) when the load comes on they are right on the first white water so it's much easier to advance the ski through rather than the tug of war we usually find ourselves in. Getting this right is obviously what counts as "light on the line". As the line gets shorter it becomes much more important to pick up the load later so this becomes critical from 35off. Can you short liners shed any light on how you have developed this skill? I don't believe you can practice out of the course or on long lines as the dynamics, speed and timing of the course are important for this. People I see doing this really well are: Nate, Todd(the Editor), TW, Wim Decree, Drew Ross and Horton. Like I said I don't think you can ski short line without loading the line later but these guys (at least on their onside turns) somehow noticeably keep the inside hip up, keeping the speed up and accelerating the ski through on hook up. Is this another of those things that's a result of doing things right (like the reverse 'c')? Look forward to your views.

@Ed_Johnston - thanks! (I think). Now all i have to do is get it delivered to work address and it may not get noticed. (Probably not the first one here to think this way?!)