Deep11

Consciously trying to pull in or bend arms = bad idea from how I understand things - lots of bad things can happen :) Better keep arms straight and connected - hip movement and rolling chest into back arm to make the transition are actually "doable" and result in the arm bend that you see off the second wake from the pros.

Interesting..... I had a go at the course as a junior for a season or so and maxed at 5@34 long longline (longest !) Had about 25 yrs off when I did (in order) a lot of ski racing, started a business and had a family. About 5yrs ago started again, messing at long line 34 & 36. Got serious 4 yrs ago - reckoned 36 made no sense and worked exclusively on 34. A season at 18 & 16m Then lots of 14 and 13m This last year - 4 yrs in to actually studying it properly - (thats the bit I think I do well and have brought from my business) my practice PB is 5@11.25 (38). Tournament is 5@12 (but I only entered 3 comps this year and have been running 12m most days during the season) Interestingly I tried 36 recently - straight in at 14m (28) - that's as long as my line goes- and ran it - weird as have never run any length at 36 prior to that. Had my 50th birthday a month ago and will only keep going as long as I progress. My understanding now is that shortline is far more like a mathematical formulae than a feat of strength - so progression can - and will - continue !

Success! - I think? - - With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot") staying balanced and connected, you actually resist letting the ski shoot through. Shooting the ski through loses direction and balance yet everyone I know has at some point tried it as a technique. Perhaps you could put it in your "how to ski shortline" book as something to avoid?

Hmmmm - my text is not posting - something is against me!

.?? Lost the last bit of my post?...... With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot"

@Horton , just to be clear when you say: "It happens near failure but that does not make it a skill to be learned." I take you are talking about the "shooting the ski through" and resultant "chair position"? In which case i get it. With everything I've been working on it seems that the reverse "C" is the opposite - it is what happens when ( with good acceleration out the "sweet spot"

This is really great dialogue and just what I was hoping for with really interesting clarification. Like most here I've tried all the above approaches and all work, more or less. Right now my favoured answer is 2) and @detrick has put into words what I have been working on recently as a result of spending time last week with Freddie Winter's coach - Dimiti ( for reference if you are looking for excellent coaching in a beautiful location on the Greek coast, 5min walk from the harbour, restaurants and hotels, then I can't recommend it highly enough - http://waterskigreece.com) Dimitri's ethos is that whilst there are many ways to get it done, to ski most efficiently then a "touch and go" approach is required, with the sweet spot about 1-2m in front of the White water - essentially as @detrick explained it. Going further however we were discussing that if you get it right then the sweet spot should be just that - a short sharp input to the line which catapults you into the wake and across the the next bouy. Because you are wide and early you can stand tall into the bouy and crucially, because you have no intention of cranking the turn, you just ride the ski to the sweet spot - balance, COM etc all in the right place. As has been said above if you crank a turn the result is that you generally load early by falling back slightly or taking a hit - because this is ahead of the sweet spot you won't ( importantly you actually can't) generate instant acceleration and have to resist for longer - effectively a loading zone from connection to the wakes - gets it done but direction suffers. Conversely if you load late (into the first wake) you generally end up pulling long which results in too much speed and slack at the next bouy. Clearly the first step in getting things done is being able to stack correctly. All of us however have felt amazing effortless hook ups when we hit it just right after the turn. The point of this approach is to be able to do it for every wake crossing and to learn at each line length just how much load to put in to get you to the next sweet spot. Taking this further we were discussing how this approach to loading the line can be the bedrock to your technique: If your primary goal is to load the line instantly in the right direction 1-2m in front on the White water then a lot of other stuff will take care of itself. I've been working on this by repeating 13m for now - It's early days and I am not a great skier but the video I've attached shows a 13m pass before (more constant load/resistance) and then one from yesterday, when my only focus was getting to the sweet spot to load. I think that overall the sweet spot pass looks better, even though I'm not hitting it quite right yet and totally failed out of 3. - certainly felt easier. Engine note says I'm working differently too. Certainly interesting stuff to work on during the winter. (Baller index was -12 hence the full winter gear) (Anyone else notice how long it takes to get your head round posting on waterski theory?)

I'm not sure if this might be a question better asked as a poll. As I'm not sure how to set that up I'll post it like this first. As I undertand it one of the main goals in our sport (once we know how to stack properly) is getting as quickly as possible from one side of the wake to other. What I'd like to know is, is there a "sweet spot" where you should be aiming for maximum load ( resistance / whatever) on the line in order to achieve the required acceleration and angle? Listening to different coaches and the threads here there seem to be a few different ideas. The options I can see are: 1. As soon as possible when you get your hand back on the handle 2. Midway from bouy to whitewash 3. At the whitewash 4. At the first wake 5. Right behind the boat 6. Second wake 7. No such thing as maximum load - resist from hand on to when you release 8.? Note: this is not about edge change but the max load that starts the edge change. It seems to me that the way in which you ski will be dictated by your approach to loading the line and a "sweet spot" will give the quickest acceleration with the least effort, if there is a "sweet spot" is it the same at all line lengths? Look forward to hearing the collective views / ideas. Kevin

In the first photo - how does he get that much ski in the water that quickly! How???

@Horton - are you seeing the difference on your videos to where the water breaks on the front of the ski? Are you now burying it like Terry W? - Also has anyone got any more video of BoS skier Ward McLain? - I really like his smooth style with minimal body movement and would love to look at it in more detail (camera unfortunately doesn't follow him fully in the video posted.) Thanks Kevin

I know many don't rate it, but I found that free skiing (videoing it to make the necessary changes) really allowed me to concentrate on the stack. The turns are only there to allow you to hook up at the right position - can even do it two handed like Seth's whips. Think I spent most of a season doing this alternate sets to get the muscle memory dialed.

This is a really interesting thread and it would be a pity if it runs out now so here goes.... (I suspect that Horton has a few of these types of questions in reserve to keep us ski geeks interested) The original question from Horton was how to move his centre of mass (COM) forward in order to help him achieve 39's. It seems that while everyone is agreed that the balance of angle / com/ load / speed / acceleration etc is what separates the good from the bad and ugly, the advice to Horton has come round to his "stack" position rather than just focusing on COM. I have taken a few screen shots of pros running 39 at roughly the same spot that Hortons snapshot is taken. What I see is that, while the Pros have what I would term an "indestructible" position (meaning that whatever else happens - increased pull from the boat, the wake etc - they will still be in control and gain speed and angle), Hortons position is on the limit. Any increased load from the boat or hit from the wake, looks like it would result in more "compression". It's unlikely to be much as he's really strong in this position (it's his default), but any "give" means that the power from the boat is being dispelled before it reaches the ski. As the line gets shorter this becomes less manageable and you can't afford the time to fix the compromises anyway. I would tentatively suggest therefore that moving the COM forward is probably not the main issue (the pics of Andy and Rossi don't show any more forward lean than Hortons) but gaining a more "controlled" stack position that, as things get more on the edge, generates speed and cross course angle rather than load and compression. Establishing that, a question I have about this (which probably applies to all levels) is how in the world do you approach changing a default stack position that has been refined over many years? Is it predictably possible? We have skiers with us who have been skiing and competing for over 20yrs and, whilst always working on stuff, still have the basic compromises in their stack. It may of course be as Marcus says that they are simply not physically able to achieve the position required but I would suggest that if you can do it on land then it should be possible on the water. My personal preference is to get away from the course and video every set, making and recording all the changes you try until you start to see a difference. I think you also need a reference point of video/pictures of a skier you think you want to ski like. As has been said before what you feel and what's actually happening are generally very different. Where I may now overstep my pay grade is suggesting that from Hortons photo his goal may be to find a stack position that allows him to lift his right shoulder whilst keeping the right arm locked and loaded. This would have the effect of a more upright "taller on the ski" "indestructible" position like Andy and Rossi. Clearly would depend on the turn, hook up, tight line yadayadayada....... Hope this thread continues.......:)

@skijay - the best post ever on how to advance in the sport - extremely well put. I did the deconstruct/reconstruct about 3 years ago (16 was easy 14 a mess and irregular - just as described by @cragginshred) - it was a humbling experience but now 13 easy,12 (35) coming more regularly and I hit a PB of 5@11 last week. I watch others at the same level not advancing and getting frustrated because the basics just aren't carved In stone, worse still the repetition at the pass they are trying to make only serves to reinforce the bad habits making the deconstruct ( if it comes) even harder. How do you break a habit that's taken 5-10years to build? Sometimes you wonder if changing the front foot and starting over wouldn't be easier! You should copy and past your post to everyone that asks for advice on shortening :)

@OB totally agree - just making that point that these guys posted a lot of incredible scores. Think it's great that you / we can have the opportunity to join in. Wouldn't want it changed in any way. Haralds score was great - guy has "huge" arms!! In fact none of the dawgs are on the skinny side, guess raw power is required at some point.

Amazing! Looks like Anybody harbouring thoughts of entering a big dawg event has to have a regular 10.75 score to have any sort of a shout. How about a Nautique "really quite small dawg" event?

I've been using it with the iPhone 5s - works perfectly. Only niggle (and to be fair its probably the iphone) is that the video looks kinda "wavey" which I am guessing is a stabilisation issue. (Rossi posted a wakeye vid on his fácebook page with the same issue). Anyone got a solution?

Saw the women's video a while back wondering if I missed the others ?

Great advice above : Step away from the course Learn to turn with the hips ( not shoulders ) Arms straight Everything else you have been worrying about will happen as you get better at this.

Cheers @horton

Didn't expect to see Rossi today at the masters (clearly not paying attention !) but a great unexpected pleasure. Looked like very challenging conditions - does anyone know what Chris was skiing on - looked black not green?

Practice went 2@12 upto 2@11.25. Comp went 2@13 upto 5@12. Suspect I've plateaued - in fact given the frustrating mediocre sets today it s quite cheering to take note of last years progress.

@SM said "So what I really learned out of all this is turns mean almost nothing. Being efficient and getting across the course quickly is everything." This has been this years mantra for me and @CAM - what we are finding is the better you get at this ( and it's VERY slow progress - video every set) the more the ski is in the water off the second wake and the less mistakes that happen in the turn. This year it's not about making more bouys but "feeling" a smooth fast pass - way more fun!

Disclaimer: feel free to ignore all that follows as ramblings of an enthusiastic amateur. Working on Countering to improve your hook up can work but you will have to be really precise. My experience suggests that you are working on this because you are skiing narrow and bouy to bouy. Thinking about the "counter" - what it does is centre you on the ski and engage the turning edge. This may be a band aid on the real problem : If you have sufficient momentum off the second wake AND stay connected you will automatically stay centred and on the turning edge with plenty of time approaching the bouy = no need to work on the turn. So I think your time would be better spent working on your leveraged position to 1. Thís can only be worked on IF you turn in with enough speed. That can only be achieved IF you pull out with enough speed and width. SO .... I would recommend really getting your pull out sorted. This of course is also the same leverage position to 2,4,6 (which you can't work on until you get to 1,3,5 properly) so time well spent. Note : if you do this and fly into 1, or take slack/ hits it's probably not the fault of your leverage position ( without video evidence) but that you are disconnecting off the second wake = next thing to work on :) Don't compromise an achieving the best stack/leverage position you can (sounding like Horton now!). Of course you could continue to work on the turn which (like me a couple is seasons ago) will get you down the course sometimes and feeling good, but this will ultimately hinder your real progression - which I am guessing is the goal?

Thanks for the responses - was hoping someone might have ridden both. Will need to sleep on it for a bit.

Thanks - @horton , I am actually 15.5 stone but understand that in "American" a stone may be a reference to testicles and not a unit of weight - not wanting to confuse I guessed at 200lbs, a bit of mental maths actually puts me at 217 ( before adding all my cold water kit - it's always cold) - so I guess back in the 68' category. Being on this side of the pond also limits the try before you buy - @wish what did you experience that was so different? Kevin