Binding Stiffness

[Horton]

Some time this summer I called Sully at Radar to talk about bindings. I was suggesting that RS-1 Boots might be better if they were stiffer side to side. Chris (Sully) heard what I had to say and said he had some stiffer ones I could try.

When the boots showed up I put then on the S1 I was ridding and went skiing. Since I was jumping around between skis and bindings it was hard to tell.  I took a breath and got more scientific. I stayed on one ski, took 6 or 8 rides on stiffer boots and then changed back to stock boots for another week and then switched back.

What I learned was that the stiffer bindings made my skiing more harsh and abrupt. I seemed to be able to load my front foot better in the preturn with the softer (Stock RS-1) bindings. I think this is because I was more stable through the edge change. I am not saying that I think I want my bindings to be even softer but I am saying that there is a sweet spot.

[Roger]

Hmmm, we skied the last three Palm Bay tournaments and Ben Favre was at the last two. He has a reflex front binding with a metal U shaped piece he has added to stiffen the (already stiff) side to side leverage. Just food for thought...

[Gern Blanston]

I guess i don't see it in terms of black and white - as it appears to be presented.  Stiffness is a continuum to me.  With the referenced reinforced reflex as say a 10, cheap adjustable combo rubber at the other end say a 1, where would the rs-1's be as it relates to the stiff rs-1's?

From a snow ski boot perspective, I tend to view stiffness more vertically - i.e. shin to top of the foot - and how dramatically you weight the ski (or not) as being the more important factor.  The side to side or horizontal aspect is more of a byproduct of the vertical stiffness due to the materials being used.  I've never heard anyone complain that a snow ski boot is too stiff horizontally and too soft vertically, for example.  That being said, I apologize for being obtuse but I don't understand the emphasis of the side to side stiffness in the post???

[swerveit]

While we are on the topic, I did read someone else using double reflex,,?? I have had mine for a couple of seasons now and they have been fantastic. Recently I have had a couple of releases and my shins are getting wrecked from the ski (or something)

Its my rear foot mid section of shin… and its taking chunks out.

 

 

Happened around 2 ball (onside) tried to stand on the tip, mind wrote a cheque the body couldn’t cash!

Tip came round and I was over the front, hear a pop pop, bindings release and im swimming.

I think im hitting the front release mech, rear of the boot or the ski??

Other than wearing a shin guard anyone know a fix ? (Other that not crashing)

It’s getting to the state where I need stitches as its nailing the same location when ever it happens.

 

tip for hardshells, keep the rear top buckle loose. (thanks Fish)

[swerveit]

ooh and just some interesting info: (or not)

 

 

a pall of mine whos on the seniors team for his country was having trouble and 11/38 off. while speaking to a few pros who had the same hardshell setup they told him to cut the cuffs/make them lover.

something to do with leverage on the ski and ZO.

they cut them down for him and bingo hes running it...

 

(??)

[MrJones]

Swerve,

I am running Dbl Reflex but on a G10 plate with dual lock for the release. I have been using a thinner liner in the rear boot for a little "slack." When the season is over I am going to try the normal and thicker Reflex liner to see if I notice a difference. I also noted a number of open skiers cutting off that top rear part of the reflex boot. (Including the WR holder) I will probably try that as well, but I am a little hesitant to go carving on $130 boots.

 It would be very interesting to hear from someone in the snow ski industry about their thoughts on binding stiffness and how it affects skis. (Snow and theoretically water) Maybe a good interview for John???

[eleeski]

Careful about running the rear boot loose. I used to do that (it does help the performance). On a nasty fall, my rear foot slipped out of the binding - halfway! It hung up on the top clip which was loose enough to let my ankle move but not loose enough to let my foot out. I ended up with a mild ankle sprain.

I now remove the clip on the cuff of the rear boot and replace it with a rubber band (racing bicycle innertube). I get good movement forward, reasonable side support and my foot can escape if necessary.

My front boot has all its clips but I did not pin the cuff. I actually cut the bottom of the cuff to allow more forward flex.

My shells are fairly soft (as hardshells go). I'm not sure I want things stiffer in any direction. I balance best on the soles of my feet. I prefer rubber for performance but they hurt too much.

Swervit, those Silveretta clips are nasty for shins. Most trickers use a soccer shin guard to protect the shin.

Full Tilt snow ski boots might be a good interview for Horton. I think they are based in the USA and they use Intuition liners. Maybe those ARC and Scott boot users could get new snow ski boots for their waterski setups.

Eric

[Jim Neely]

Eric,

 You said, " I prefer rubber for performance but they hurt too much." What do you mean? How do they hurt?

Jim

[swerveit]

Scot, you have them bolted straight to the plate?

was thinking about going to the velcro setup but theres not many people here that have "the velcro knowledge"

only one guy and he is in and out of the country and im not about to experiment on my elite.

 

 

i have only had a handful of full releases must say its a sweet feeling when you feel/hear the pop pop of the release.

only issue i find with them is getting the heal/toe close together. because you need enough movement/clearence of the front mechanism, you cant have the rear hardshell to close to the front

as it happens i run both the mechanisms raised giving me a little more room to bring the rear to forward.

 

this setup has a lot of lateral stiffness,ive seen photos of me skiing and the ski is at a right angle to my leg where ever i am in the course.

the way i see it, lateral stiffness gives you a direct connection to the ski, good if you are on the money bad if your movements are not good or positive. the beginning of the season i loosen the binders and mechanism, as i start to flow

i will start to crank it down a little.

 

 

but with the pros cutting binders down i think they are at a stage where its to much..

in theory they want to lean away but with them leaned out that far in a full hardshell it would put the ski on its wall and not a rail in what the ski was designed for.

 

 

 

don't shoot me but:

if you went snow skiing would you really put your foot in a rubber binding? (ignoring the cold issue).

i still think the future is reverse engineering snow ski binders.

the R&D is already been done for us...

[MrJones]

Swerve,

If you are happy with your system stay with it. I know Theiry Malolme uses the dbl Reflex/dbl Silveretta set up and obviously skis very well with it. To me, there are just a lot of mechanical parts that could fail and/or to maintain. 

 I do not think that dual lock is a good release system from a safety stand point! I had a non-release OTF years ago and hurt my front ankle badly. Can't run on it anymore. Having said that, it was largely my fault. I was running more dual lock than recommended by the factory. Lesson learned and I have not had a problem with it since. I went to the reflex boots on the goode style plate as I was having problems with buckles and hinges breaking on the Goode boot. The Reflex boots are IMHO a much better/stronger boot. While dual lock may not be ideal, it is a very clean looking set up and I find it hard to switch.

I do want to try the RS-1's this Winter. The release concept seems reasonable. I just think the feel would be a hard thing to get over.

sj

 

[swerveit]

if its maintenance that concerns you all i can say is:

I have had the same setup for 2 years, and i haven't replaced anything.

(5- 10 sets per week during the summer months)

a buddy of mine has replaced the clip once or twice, personally i think hes a little heavy handed on his gear.. all my other palls that have the clips have had them for at least a couple of years.

 

im in fresh water, but i could imagen anything alkaline, salt, acid it would cause corrosion on the chrome clips, especially the welded cross bar.

 

ALTHOUGH: the new clips have no welding they look bomb proof!some kind of treaded light weight metal...

[GMC]

Scot - are your bindings just Reflex boots bolted to a G10 plate with no release mechanism other than the Dual-Loc?  How many times in a year do you think you have a fall justifying release (unless you're in the "I don't want to release camp")?

[MrJones]

GMC

Correct. Bolted down just like powershells except no "springy bit" on the back.

I was in the "I don't want it to release camp" prior to the OTF crash I mentioned. Let me just say that is the wrong camp to be in. I literally can't run now or I get severe plantar fasciitis.

It only takes one. I rode my set up with too much dual lock for a full year before the injury. I would say 1-2 per year where it needs to come off.

 

[Marco]

Scot,

I just learned the same lesson the hard way.  I was in the "I don't want to release camp", and had my Silveretta cranked down pretty tight.  Center punched 2 ball... torn achilles on my front foot.  Now I am 8 days post op, no weight bearing for 7 more weeks, and a long rehab ahead.  I am now second guessing what bindings to use when I return to the water next season.  Not sure if any other system would have prevented my injury, so my initial thought is to stay on the Reflex, just with a lighter setting.

[Thomas Wayne]

I was told most cases of plantar fasciitis can be remedied with periodic taping, proper supportive insoles and consistent self-administered PT.  At one point I almost couldn't walk at all, but the above approach worked for me and I haven't been bothered with it for years now.

TW

[PSM]

Where do you think your DIN setting was, Marco?  If each "dash" on the left and right represents a number starting at 4, were you above 6?  Sorry to hear about your injury -- hang in there, it goes by pretty quick.

[Marco]

I was above 6, probably at 6.5.  My bad.  I cranked it down because it would release due to tip stall on my offside at my hardest length, and the ski was gashing my rear leg.  Instead of tightening the binding, I should have just focused on my technique to keep speed through the turn.  I never pre-released anywhere else other than at the end of a tip stall.  I should have kept it set at 5.  Oh well... live and learn.

[jaredH20]

to the guys using double reflex boots, do you find you often hit the back shin on the front release??

I have the reflex boot on my trick and i do manage to hit my shin tho no that often.

[swerveit]

well ive had it twice this season,

but gimme a cut shin over a busted ankle any day!

only happens in a particular fall, at the buoy and if im out of shape, not going very fast where it happens. for me its a fantastic setup,,but i think there can be improvements.

 

i do think your feet releasing together is the safest way.

 

i would like to see 2 boots bolted to a plate and a release mecahnism (simular to the silveretta) at each end.

if anyone has had an out the front and caught the tip of the ski you will know why im asking for a front release. folded my back the wrong way. scariest moment if my life!

[eleeski]

Jim, my rubber boots would cramp my feet. My hardshells get pretty tight but I can unclip them between passes and let my feet "breathe". I've got defective feet (with Morton's neuromas) so I suffer a bit. Right now I have some nagging foot injury (darn jumping and Wiley's bindings - OK I suck as a jumper). Hardshells are the only binding I can get my foot into.

I'm happier and happier about my Gatorade release bindings. The bindings will break clear of the ski in a high energy fall. My legs have been stronger than the Gatorade lids for all of my bad trick falls and I've only gotten minor slalom injuries. I oversize the holes and use a Gatorade washer to clamp the boot to the ski. The Gatorade washer is strong enough for normal skiing but breaks in a really hard fall. When Kirk was little I used rubber faucet washers instead of Gatorade lids for an easier release for him.

Still, nothing will prevent all injuries. Good luck Marco.

Eric

[Marco]

Thanks Eric- Just got my stitches out and got my custom boot today- ready for my first PT session.  Now the real pain begins.../vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-yell.gif

[aguylikeshark]

The optimum setup in my opinion is a supportive boot that can roll. This is the theory behind the quattro setup. The boot itself is allowed to roll a bit on the ski.

If that' can't be done then the boot itself needs to give a bit. This allows a lower body position in the pull. Support for the turns - flexing in the pull so the skier can compress.

But no matter what the flex you need contact - downward on the ski. Just like rubber boots they do this well. Too loose this way and you lose feedback on the ski.

A well tuned setup and top lower leg strength you need less from your boots. that is why pros are using very low-cut setups for slalom. Slalom crosses over to hockey/skating more than any other sport - and I do them all (ski, board, skate). I use very similar properties in my skates as I do in my slalom boots, skating being the more critical setup.   

 

 

[MattP]

eleeski, Gatorade release bindings? Do you have a picture?

[MrJones]

One question. Has anybody cut into their Reflex shells (in the fashion that the Fogman shells are cut) to decrease the stiffness? If so how did it go?

sj

[Dirt]

Eric, please post pictures of your homemade bindings and skis. I think everyone would be interested in seeing them.

Dave

[Horton]

Dave,

Bad - Bad  - Bad! No do not ask Eric to post anything. Bad Bad Bad

[RichardDoane]

I still want to see a picture of Eric's slalom ski that will get him into M55K !

[Roger]

I am going to be shooting some photos at the Miami Fall Record this weekend. I will take a high rez shot of Ben Favret's front boot setup and post here next week. I don't think there is ANY roll in his setup; if his foot leans, the ski leans...

 

[auskier]

this to me, is one of the most interesting photos (from a biomechanical prospective) ive seen in some time, of anyone skiing.

I like how square marcus' tibia and knee is to his foot and at right angles to his ski. there is no binding roll going on here. reflex front, custom rubber rear i think he is using these days. im sure some of you have seen a more recent setup lately..

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_u_8kE_AbKp0/SsabplBY9sI/AAAAAAAAAZY/ylOKc9KRmR4/s800/marcus.jpg

[aguylikeshark]

slalom has two phases, on the rope and off the rope. photo above is off the rope. off the rope, offside you need most support, more if you are longer lines or don't ski regularly. onside less support - just like fin adjustments.

 

phaseII is on the rope - there you gain support from the line and need to have either an out point at the ankles (low cut, soft cuff etc.), and/or the boot system to flex (as above), or (quattro/e-series) the boot to roll out a bit. slalom we don't go over about 6" of boot depth.

 

ben has his bracket all below the ankle joint - forms a sole pce so his boot doesn't twist right out of the heel pce. The boot is pretty soft and there isn't much platform there also just the hoop so it can deform and pop out under hard pulls. That is why a lot of users have to crank their releases to high tensions (>5) and risk late or delayed or non-releases using the silvretta if the boot is gummy.

 

if your boots are too stiff this creates excessive line load, speed control jacking and skiing will be harsh at short lines.

[auskier]

this doesnt look overly soft to me..

 

[Roger]

I spoke with Ben at length about his binding setup. He stated it's about "tipping." Meaning when he rolls over, the ski should roll with him, without any lag or "roll." He has made his front binding as stiff as possible in the lateral direction (see photo below). Interestingly, when I asked why his rear binding was "just a Wiley," he showed me that under the Wiley's wraps, was the shell portion of another reflex boot...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2669/3992871780_5f0a657d29_b.jpg

 

Here is a shot of Ben pointing out the registration marks on his plate from the metal bracket on his front binding:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2652/3992113781_679e35364f_b.jpg

[swerveit]

tell you what ive seen some Frankenstein-ghetto bindings in my day but that is the winner! wow!

[aguylikeshark]

there is a lot of ankle freedom in that boot. we used to carbon the lower shell -same thing. fm boots are stout enough they already have the stiffener molded in along the shoe portion of the boot.  ben has the orig ski tech boot there - that is a really low cut boot, low cuff with side out for the leg.  what you need to do is measure the buckle height from the floor of the boot to get a proper comparison..

he's added a couple of stiffeners off the back, indicates to me that the ski tail might be dopping away so needs to have something from the boot going back, this happens when you run 39-41 at 34 mph in FL lots of tail stalling in the turns. 

[Roger]

Whatever, just reporting what the man said, no roll...