Strada Boots - shell toe bed fabric

[ToddL]

I have the new Strada Boots. When the liner is removed and you look intothe shell, there is a weave fabric on the toe foot bed. In one of the boots, the edge of this fabric has come loose from the plastic shell such that inserting the liner folds about 1/2 inch of the fabric back onitself.

Has anyone else seen this? If so, what did you do about it?

If you fixed it yourself, what type of glue/epoxy did you use? (It appears to be epoxied such that the fabric was saturated through during the original installation.)

I bought these gently used. Not sure if Radar will address this as a warranty issue or not. Thoughts?

Regards,

Todd

 

http://www.thewaterskiforum.com/webbbs/images/main/pic58989.jpg

(The pic is the good boot. The boot with the issue currently has tape over the edge of the fabric, so I can't show you the fabric coming up.) 

[Thomas Wayne]

I would recommend a polyurethane glue - "Gorilla Glue" is the best knowbrand of this genre. However, the particular glue I prefer is:

http://www.buy.com/prod/ultimate-polyurethane-glue/q/listingid/46078419/loc/66357/208056028.html

Most WalMart branches carry it, so don't waste shipping expensesordering it online. Pay attention to the directions, and be aware thatit does tend to expand and flow out of a glued area. For these reasonsyou should:

1) carefully mask off any areas where you don't want this stuff sticking forever, and

2) use a masked-off surface caul to clamp the fabric down untilthe adhesive cures (24 hrs typically) -http://www.newwoodworker.com/cauls.html

Good luck with your project. If you use it correctly I'm sure this glue will do the job.

TW

[RichardDoane]

I took a razor blade to mine, and carefully removed the folded over part.  It's kind of tricky because there's not a whole bunch of space for your fingers.

[Guest]

I too have the new Strata boots. When I tried them on both boots were cramped in the toe area. I didn't think much of this at first; I figured they just needed heat molded on my Intuition heater. When I pulled the liners out I noticed both were deformed in the toe, it looked like they were folded back a little like there was an obstruction in the toe area of the shell. After reading your post, I looked inside and could see the fabric you mentioned. In my boots the fabric is completely loose on the bottom and folded forward, it appears to be sewn into the side where the shell attaches to the foot bed and is not attached to the bottom of the foot bed. It is pretty much impossible to get the liner in the shell with the fabric piece bunched up and restricting the toe of the liner from fitting.  So, the question is, what should I do? Should try to cut it out of there or should I try and glue it down? If gluing it down is the answer, how would I do this without screwing it all up? The space in the boot is tight and very difficult to access. When the glue dries will the surface be slick enough for liner to slide over it? Maybe I will call Eddie Roberts Monday and see what RADAR recommends. I am little pissed, the ice is going off the Lake today and I had hoped to use these boots. 

JC

 

[RichardDoane]

JC - did you buy them from a dealer?  If so, I'd recommend calling them first and see if they can get you another set.

[Guest]

Richard - I am a dealer. I'll work it out with RADAR. I am not worried about support, we all know RADAR support is as good as it gets. I was more interested in seeing if others were having this problem and finding out what they were doing to correct it.

[davemac]

that fabric was loose in mine.  I put some glue under it, then duct taped it down.  Its holding up fine after about 5x out on it (duct tape still there). 

[eleeski]

Strada boot review: I got a set of Radar Stradas for Kirk's new Z7.

The ski did not work with my hardshells. It worked well with Kirk's old rubber boot setup (Leeski modified Animals) but Kirk had outgrown these boots and it was tough to last more than a few passes before foot pain ended things. Since Horton won't allow me to put Kirk on anything I build, I needed new factory boots. Kirk demoed the ski with old D3 boots and liked them. But I tried new D3 rubber boots but wasn't very happy with the feel - a little sloppy. Also they were really hard to get on (and off - a little worrysome given all the ankle issues). Plus they cramped my feet.

Radar RS1 boots have gotten reasonable reviews so I figured I'd try them. Maybe they are pretty good as I couldn't find any. Tadd was able to get me some Strada boots (thanks Tadd). So I tried them yesterday. The ski worked as well as with the rubber boots (sometimes I wish my ego wasn't so big that I can't use a factory ski - I really skied well on his setup). Kirk also skied quite well. The boots are keepers!

A couple of issues did arise. The liners are too low for my taste. There was a hot spot at the top of the boot/ liner. If the liner was taller maybe that hot spot could get spread out a bit. Also, I got horrible spray shin - on both front and back foot! Again a taller liner might offer some protection without needing a spray leg.

The boot volume in the toes is a bit small for my feet. Kirk's boot does not have the fabric issues but it is still tight up there. What would happen if I cut the front of the boot off to make it an open toe? Note that I do this with my hardshells and have yet to have a failure there.

Lastly, why are the plates so heavy? We all work really hard to make skis light and strong. To waste weight on a mounting plate that could be half the weight and structurally the same (aircraft and race cars drill lightening holes in everything). The Strada boots are surprisingly light off the plate (maybe lighter if I cut off the toe).

Eddie, if you offer a taller Strada liner I will buy one. I'll drill out the plate when I'm really bored some day. And if I personally switch to a factory setup, I will go with your boot (after I cut off the toe). To steal a phrase from MS "Radar rocks!"

Eric

[Old MS Accout]

Great review Eric.

You make me want try them out.   

[eleeski]

MS, they are definitely worth a try. Certainly the best factory boot I've tried. From both a performance and (percieved) safety standpoint.

But maybe I shouldn't have read this thread. I looked too hard at the little piece of fabric. There was a small flap and bubble. A slight tug pulled the whole fabric loose to make a big flap. I was going to try Zippy's razor removal of the flap but the Exacto knife was upstairs and the Stik N Seal was right there. Stik N Seal is a waterproof contact cement. It was pretty easy to stick the flap down but I did have to be a bit patient (5 minutes). The only real downside is my fingers got glue all over them which doesn't wash off. Maybe the glue WILL stick forever!

Eric

[RichardDoane]

Eric - are you using the single plate, or the doubles ? You could order a G10 plate, they're lighter.  I remember someone's post of cutting off the toe of an RS1 boot to make room for a foot larger than a size 12.

[ForrestGump]

I bet Mike Erb could make a replacement G10 plate.

[Horton]

The weight thing is a total boondoggle! Eric get over it.

[Guest]

I just got off the phone with RADAR. The toe bed fabric that is the subject of this discussion is left over from the manufacturing process and is unnecessary. RADAR recommends carefully removing the fabric by cutting it along the edge with a razor or small pair of scissors. 

Thanks everyone,

JC McCavit

 

[HO 410]

Is it impractical to put some double-stick tape underneath?

[eleeski]

Now I wish I hadn't been so lazy and gotten the exacto knife. There's weight in that useless fabric!

Horton, I'm hurt. When Bruce says 5lbs  = 1 buoy you go on a diet. But when I champion light skis you tell me to get over it. Nobody has added lead weights to their ski to improve buoy counts.

Weight is a second order factor. But it is a real factor which does affect your skiing. My request for Eddie was to drill out the plate to save structurally irrelevant weight. Straight forward and inexpensive.

G10 is close to the weight of aluminum. Perhaps it lends itself better to lightening holes but I did not save measurable weight when I switched to G10 vs aluminum on my Gatorade trick binding. G10 is far superior to aluminum if you are using interlock - the G10 does not bend like aluminum.

Eric

[skibug]

Can there be more than 1 - 2 pounds difference between plate?  My guess is no.  The better question may be the mechanics of the material, like stiffness and how it reacts when attached to the ski.  What does it do to the ski flex?  If you are concerned about 1 -2 pound delta in plate material make sure you close your mouth when you bite it so you don't suck in a half gallon of lake water.   BTW that would equal 4 pounds, mid-set.

[eleeski]

When I was setting up Kirk's Strada boots I was pleasantly surprised by how light the pieces were. But all up on the plate they were not particularly light. Punching lightening holes in a plate where there is no structural need is virtually free (maybe there is enough value in the recycle value of the aluminum to make it positive!). There will not be a huge weight savings on that one proceedure. But added with other small factors (graphite, tight tolerance cores, dry layups, etc) the end result is a ski that is light enough to notice the difference.

The ski is at the end of the lever arm. My belly full of lake water is near the center of gravity. Weight on the pivoting ski can be far more important than weight at the center of gravity - especially if you need to make a snappy recovery. All excess weight is bad - but out on the lever arm where the ski is it is worse.

Weight is a second effect. Other factors in a ski design are far more important. But weight does have a performance effect and should not be ignored. Especially when it is easy to lose the weight.

Eric

[MrJones]

One other idea. I have been a powershell user for years. They come with a thin plastic "insole" to keep the mounting bolts from digging into your liners. If you are having a problem with drag in your Stradas you could easily trace and cut your own, glue the loose material down, then put the insert in with a bit of tape on bottom to hold it in place. I simply doubled over duct tape for this purpose for years with my powershells.

 

BTW. I never noticed before, but the material in my Strada is bunched up. I am going to get a scalpel after it tonight.

 

[Old MS Accout]

Scot, are you using Stradas now?

[MrJones]

Yep. I really like them. Very comfortable and I think I can actually turn the ski better than with the double Reflex's. Of course I switched skis and bindings at the same time which is a no-no. My perception of this might well be off. 

 John had been telling me to try the Radar boots for the last year. I should have listened. (Hope he doesn't read this)

[ForrestGump]

I actually liked the feel of my RS1  bindings I'd been on for the last two years better than the Strada. I think it has to do with the thickness of the liners and my long, narrow feet.  With the Strada's, my foot is not held as tightly even after heat molding, which forced me to pull the bungies a LOT tighter around my ankle.  So I ended up with a looser fit around my heel and a tighter fit around my upper ankle. Kind of like the feel I had when I used to run Obrien Bio's. And one thing I learned with the RS1's, was that tight bungees didn't work for me very well. This kept me from being able to drive my knees and ankles forward and backwards.  So, to resolve this I ended up going to REI and finding some thicker SuperFeet inserts to use in place of the stock inserts. In this case, I used Orange inserts. VOILA! Back to the RS1 feel. Now my foot is being held snugly, and the ankle only has light tension with the release and feel that I think the system was designed for.  Another thing I did, which I also did to the RS1's, was to untie the knot at the end of the bungee and retie it much closer to the boot.  Basically, I've made the cinch non functional. I put my foot in the binding and flexed forward like I would be in a neutral position, put the bungees on the posts, ran the cinch up against them with a little tension, and then retied the knot against the cinch. I did NOT pull the bungee's tight. Just put tension on them.  Where the knot is tied gives me just enough slack with an easy pull to get the bungee over the post now.  This way my bungee tension is repeatable every time. 

The big symptom I had with the Strada's was that my heel felt loose unless I pulled the bungee's tight. So if this applies to you, you might consider locating some thicker inserts.  I hope this helps.

[MrJones]

I can see that different sizes and shapes of feet may need to tweak things a bit. I tried on some RS-1's last year and they felt way too tight. (Size 11's) While I initially felt a little pressure on my toes with the Strada's, it was not much and I don't feel anything now that the liners have packed out a bit.  

I like the knot idea. Mainly for the ability to reproduce the same tightness of the boot each time.

 BTW. Cut out the fabric last night. A bit of pain, but not too bad.

[ForrestGump]

Exactly Scot. Your feel in the Strada with the stock insert is probably what I feel now with the thicker insert and what I felt before in the RS1. The real reason I intially made the cinch non functional with the knot is because the back one would work it's way loose and halfway through the set I'd be pulling it tighter again while in the water.  But it had the side benefit of allowing me to start with the same tension every time, too.

[davemac]

Interesting post, Shane.  I just want to make sure I follow this correctly.  Obviously  you are referring to the upper bungee.  Did you tie the knot below the cincher to take it out of the equation, or just above it- so that the cincher will be unable to loosen and to get a consistent tension each time out?

While on the topic, at the end of your run, what method are you guys using to get out of the ski?  Do you pull your foot out of the shell along w/ the liner, or do you try to leave the liner in the shell....which requires the somewhat difficult task of loosening the bungee with gloves on?

Similar to you Shane, I found a bit more "slop" in the (Strada) heel then to my liking, even after heat molding.  I sized down which remedied it, with the tolerable sacrifice of some big toe space.  My liner seems to want to shrink in length after getting wet, so I occassionally jam a spring loaded cedar shoe tree in til it dries.  I hadn't thought of a thicker insert. 

 

[ForrestGump]

Dave, I'm tying the knot just above the cinch. It's still there between the knot and the boot.

In my case, I couldn't size down because then my toes were jammed up.  So the thicker insert took up the excess volume for me.

Now, with my bungees adjust to my liking and the knot redone, I can grab the cinch with my gloved hand and pull the bungee off the posts in the water easily.  No fumbling with the cinch lock to loose it.

[RichardDoane]

I never take my liners out of the shells - saves on wear/tear when forcing them in/out

[Deke]

I have trouble getting my feet out of the liners while leaving them in the shell (RS-1's). The footbeds I have seem to have too much traction to let my feet slide out. I agree about the wear and tear though and actually my hands take a beating when putting the liners back into the shell.

[MrJones]

A question for your guys who leave the liners in the shells. Don't they get the funk? Here in south Louisiana any thing not in direct sunlight is prone to mold quick. I would think it would not take long for your ski bag to smell like a penicillin factory. (Yes, I know the liners have some kind of anti-microbial treatment, but c'mon)

Is there an official Radar recommendation about leaving liners in vs. taking them out?

[ForrestGump]

Scot, I never took the liners out of my RS1's. That was two seasons and they never had issues. That said, I do take the liners out of my strada's and let them dry and air out. Since the RS1 liners were next to impossible to replace, I'm trying to take care of these.

[RichardDoane]

Scot - my liners don't get very funky, but it's not ever humid or hot in Western Washington.  However, if my ski bag is actually inside a car, I always leave the windows cracked !

[RichardDoane]

I thought of something else this morning, the "anti-bacterial" dish soap we thin down and use from the spray bottle also helps in "funk control".

[jlittle]

Alright, so how exaxtly did you guys trim the fabric in the footbed?  From what I'm finding it's a royal PITA.  And if I get to close to the edges and clip the stitching hows that going to affect the integrity of the binding?  Right now I'm dealing with 2 pair of these and not real happy about it.

It's not that I don't mind modifying new equipment but at best I'm going to have a bunch of gouge marks all ove the inside of the binding.  Unless I'm missing something obvious.

[MrJones]

jlittle,

I used a scalpel and caution. I was also concerned about cutting something important, but it didn't seem to be a big deal. I did make sure i was pressing down into the hard plastic foot bed and not laterally into the side of the binding. It was not a pretty cut and I pulled/tore some of it out. I also had to do two pair as my wife is using them so I feel your pain. 

My suggestion is wait until an evening after some particularly good skiing when you are in a good mood. Get comfortable on the couch with an adult beverage and be patient. If you try to hurry and cut it out because your turn in the rotation is coming up in 3 skiers it'll be a pisser. 

[HO 410]

Is duct tape not effive at holding down that piece of fabric?

[davemac]

Is duct tape not effive at holding down that piece of fabric?

A small piece of duct tape has held up perfectly fine on mine.

[jlittle]

Just an update.  First, in both boots the fabric was completely detached upon arrival.  I wanted a permanent fix so IMO trimming it was the only option.  I thought about glue (re gluing?) and just couldn't get a good feeling about it holding permanently.  Being as I'm pretty finicky duct tape was not an option and from my experience duct tape has a 100% failure rate in nearly all applications.

I had my wife look at them to see if she had some mystry crafting tool that might do the trick and all she said was, "wow, surely a woman didn't design these".  So out came the exato knife.  It took some time and was quite cramped but I got it done and am satified with the results.

[Roger]

My RS-1 bindings had the fabric come loose also. I let everything dry out completely and then used a two part epoxy to glue them down. They have not moved since then and I don't notice any difference at all skiing. I saw Rossi at our Record tournament this weekend and he is back in his RS-1s. Ran his usual 3 @ 41 first round. Sure looks like he's about to run the whole pass in a tournament any time now...

[richfoster]

I'm with Scot .If I leave my liners in they get reeel funky. Maybe the Oklahoma humidity.I've been taking mine out every time they get wet 4 2 years now & they have held up very well. 

[DKessler]

Thanks RD...20 min at 200 and they plumped right up.  Cant wait to ski them tomorrow with a tight fit.

[Dirt]

I got a pair of Stradas this week from Horton. One was perfect and the other had the toe bed fabric bunching up. I called Eddie yesterday and he said it could be cut out or Gorilla taped down. I was lazy and chose to Gorilla tape it. He said to put the tape within two inches of the front and press it onto the toe bed fabric. Then, pull it back toward the heel and press it down. He suggested one or two strips of tape and to do both boots, even though one boot was fine. It was really easy.

[ForrestGump]

I've got money that Horton selected that jacked up one especially for you, Dave.

[Dirt]

Shane, I have no idea why he would do that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWWFV8BGUxA&hl=en_US&fs=1

[thager]

Too funny!! Almost choked on my coffee!!!